propitiation by His blood, through faith

[justbyfaith]

Jesus said: “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.” (John 6:37)

Don't people come to Him as the result of preaching according to the verses he quoted?

 

[Dave L]

Don't people come to Him as the result of preaching according to the verses he quoted?

It means God did not intend to save every single person or they would come too.

 

[justbyfaith]

It means God did not intend to save every single person or they would come too.

Your statement is contradicted by 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9.

 

[justbyfaith]

What happens if the wax is never exposed to the heat? It will never melt. (And in this parable, the wax melting is likened to salvation; and the clay hardening is likened to someone rejecting salvation).

 

[Dave L]

Your statement is contradicted by 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9.

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9)

“Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” (1 Timothy 2:4–5) = all are saved.

Or, all men = Jews and Gentiles alike fulfilling the promise to Abraham. Obviously not each and every person.

“And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.” (1 Peter 2:8)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

If faith (saving faith) is a gift from God, and God desires that all men should be saved, that would mean that everyone would have saving faith, and all would be saved, especially all of Israel (the chosen nation of God).

But since that is not the case, faith is generated by the preaching of the Gospel. Which leads to obedience to the Gospel. But all have NOT obeyed the Gospel.

ROMANS 10
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Looks like you have fallen into the snare of Five Point Calvinism.

Well first, you say IF faith is a gift...
The verse says: and that not of yourselves, it is a gift.
So we should start with the understanding that faith is a gift, so no man can boast, even though we've all heard the boast that a man chose to believe/have faith in God so he is goin to heaven but another man chooses to not have faith/believe so he's goin to hell. And we have other verses too that support this like...you did not choose Me, I chose you. And verse 20 that you give is another support - I was found by them who did not seek me, I manifested Myself to them who did not ask after Me.

As for not all obeying the gospel, yes, and we are given reasons in many places. One of those places is the parable of the talents. Another is the parable of the soils. But they aren't meant for us to call down condemnation on other men but to prick our own hearts, to instruct our own selves. The seed was scattered on all of the soils and the talents were given to each man. The seed and the talents in my opinion are the seed of faith like a mustard seed that must grow and not be buried by the cares of this world or the deceitfulness of riches.

 

[justbyfaith]

God wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth...and He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

This is referring to the will of the Father...it has not to do with Jew and Gentile; but the love that God has for all people and His desire that everyone be saved.

If you think that God doesn't want everyone saved, then you have a God who is not by definition love...the God you have is a God who hates some and loves others. This God would be defined as love and hate...he would be both God and satan.

re #245, @Dave L.

 

[justbyfaith]

Of course, God did create the wicked for the day of judgment...

What if God, willing to shew his wrath and make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction?

He would in this be declaring His hatred of sin and of those who will not be separated from it through faith in Jesus' blood...and this would be a righteous thing and a thing of God rather than satan.

 

[Enoch111]

The verse says: and that not of yourselves, it is a gift.

Which is the gift? Salvation (eternal life). Given to those who believe and obey the Gospel.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 6:23)

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:16)

Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness. Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David. (Isa 55:1-3)

As I said, if faith were the gift, and God desires the salvation of all mankind, then all would be saved.

And God does desire the salvation of all mankind (Isa 45:22): Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim 2:3,4)

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Pet 3:9)

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent (Acts 17:30)

 

[justbyfaith]

(cont'd from #248)...

Nevertheless He offers salvation to all; otherwise it would be unjust of Him to condemn the sinner, since he was never offered salvation...but the sinner who hears the offer of salvation and rejects it is all the more accountable.

 

[LC627]

Nevertheless He offers salvation to all; otherwise it would be unjust of Him to condemn the sinner, since he was never offered salvation...but the sinner who hears the offer of salvation and rejects it is all the more accountable.

we are all equally dead in sin, Romans 1 tells us that man is without excuse for not knowing God. All of mankind sees the work of God.

Man in his natural state is an enemy of God and would never freely submit unless convicted by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Nancy]

The problem with your understanding is; one needs the Holy Spirit before they can do "Christian" things. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit, any attempts at obedience are simply acting like a Christian = hypocrisy.

Actually, "faithfulness" is a fruit of the Spirit...not faith. They are very different. God has given each a measure of faith to build upon. We are to exercise that faith in trusting Him and acknowledging Him in ALL our ways. And, ANYTHING one does without the Holy Spirit is of the flesh so...it sounds like you have it backward.

"Without the Holy Spirit, any attempts at obedience are simply acting like a Christian = hypocrisy."

And, without the Holy Spirit, the same applies to doing "Christian" things. "...And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ."

 

[justbyfaith]

(cont'd from #250)...

Therefore God in His Omnipotent Sovereignty has ordained it that those who reject what Jesus did for them will be condemned...He has desired that all would come in through the Way that He has ordained....but has given man a free will and a degree of his own sovereignty so that he can choose between eternal life and eternal death (Deuteronomy 30:19, Joshua 24:15).

 

[H. Richard]

It means God did not intend to save every single person or they would come too.

***

God gave us free will. We are not robots.

 

[justbyfaith]

we are all equally dead in sin, Romans 1 tells us that man is without excuse for not knowing God. All of mankind sees the work of God.

Man in his natural state is an enemy of God and would never freely submit unless convicted by the Holy Spirit.

That is a good point...in it I find that even if the Lord doesn't offer salvation to someone, they are held accountable for rejecting Him...because the light of creation (Romans 1) was illumined to them and they rejected it. And if they received the light of creation but rejected the light of conscience (Romans 2), they are accountable for that. I most certainly believe that any and all who receive the light of creation and conscience will be given the light of the gospel (Romans 3) as a matter of course; to receive or to reject.

 

[LC627]

***

God gave us free will. We are not robots.

Man has a free agency, we can make choices and you're right we are not robots, but our nature is one of sin and we will always choose a life of sin unless first convicted. The will of man is not free if we are slaves to sin. We are free do to what is in our nature, and as fallen beings that is sin. You are free to try and fly if you want but you won't because you clearly know it is not in your nature to fly as a human. Man has the free reign to do as he pleases within his nature, but no one ever comes to Jesus unless drawn by the Father.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

But, God's elect were redeemed before the foundation of the world. And being justified by Christ's blood, none would ever go to hell.

Elect...I do get there are two seeds and also see the Ark preserved His seed through the flood. As the Ark which is Christ preserves His seed through the fire.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

2 Peter 2:14
[14] Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

Are the Sons of perdition made, not born? Does the world make them seared in conscience, or are they born that way? Or are we all born of the seed of Adam...until we are born from above of His seed?

 

[Nancy]

I disagree because sin is a condition of the human heart born corrupt in Adam. In time this condition comes out as external sins. In Romans 5 Paul speaks of all of Adam's children being considered sinful. And all of Christ's children being considered righteous through him. We are a corrupt species and remain so unless God saves us.

So then, you believe a just and merciful God would send a fetus in the womb, (not yet born of water) and those who are mentally incapable of making even the most basic of decisions will be held accountable even though they had NO free will choice in the matter. So, you do NOT believe in free will huh. Now I understand some of your posts. God just wants robotics, He FORCES them to Love Him. How small for such a huge God.

 

[justbyfaith]

Elect...I do get there are two seeds and also see the Ark preserved His seed through the flood. As the Ark which is Christ preserves His seed through the fire.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

2 Peter 2:14
[14] Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

Are the Sons of perdition made, not born? Does the world make them seared in conscience, or are they born that way? Or are we all born of the seed of Adam...until we are born from above of His seed?

An excellent question....I would go with the last thing spoken.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Elect...I do get there are two seeds and also see the Ark preserved His seed through the flood. As the Ark which is Christ preserves His seed through the fire.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

2 Peter 2:14
[14] Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

Are the Sons of perdition made, not born? Does the world make them seared in conscience, or are they born that way? Or are we all born of the seed of Adam...until we are born from above of His seed?

I say yes, we were all born of the seed of Adam. God created Adam and eve but then they fell. And it says: then Adam had a son born in his own image and named him seth.