Proselyting Techniques of Mormon Missionaries

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Jane_Doe22

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I have posted from LDS sources that disagrees with you, friend. In fact, Son of God being a spirit child of parent gods before time. That means he had a begining. We both agree the Bible teaches he does not have a begining. This is just one of the many reasons I suggested you do yourself a favor, dump the mormonism and attend Baptist Church with your Hubby. also, from LDS sources, I have shown that they believe god is an exualted being, thus as a spirit child he had a beginng too. The god of this world is not the real god.

"We declare it is self-evident from the scriptures that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are separate persons, three divine beings," The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent

Friend that is three gods, not One as we both believe.

I am sure we both know that,



2 Corinthians 4:4
Easy-to-Read Version
4 The ruler[a] of this world has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They cannot see the light of the Good News—the message about the divine greatness of Christ. Christ is the one who is exactly like God.

2 Corinthians 4:4 The ruler Literally, “The god.”

2 Corinthians 4:4
in whom the god of this world has blinded the thoughts of the unbelieving, so that the radiancy of the glad tidings of the glory of the Christ, who is [the] image of God, should not shine forth [for them].

You call me "friend". If that is true, then actually listen to me for once.

Actual beliefs: LDS Christian believe that Jesus Christ has always existed. Many verses like Revelation 1:8 support this. And yes the Father is Christ's Father- that doesn't change the fact that He's eternal.

Where "anti-Mormon" sources get things wrong: they take LDS Christian sources talking about the Son having a Father, and then blend in the Creedal idea that having parents mean that the person doesn't exist at one point. This is grossly inaccurate strawman and the opposite of actual LDS Christian beliefs.
 

The Learner

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You are a bit aggressive in your approach.. and
I get it, this is serious business.

Hosea

You take this very seriously… I can respect that. Being correct regarding the word of God is of the utmost importance.

As it is written..

Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

And I’m like you, I want to point out contradictions, as inconsistencies in beliefs and let people know what’s what’s… But we are fishers of men, control your rod gently with precision.

I have to remind myself all the time.

A soft answer turns away wrath,

Talk to you later learner.
Hi Brother, friend part of my Background ( My Dad had 17 wives, murdered going after the 18th in 1993, when I became the Prophet). The mormon sect was called the Sextons, branched out of King Strang of Beaver Island in Michigan. As the prohet, the real God used me to bring most of them to him. When planting seeds one must plow the soil. One of my Mother's was Jewish, thus I attended Temple School after Public School, traning to become a Rabbi which is why my first language was Hebrew. Some( not a lot) of what comes into LDS theology is from Jewish Mysticism, the Occult like swedenborgianism.

Kabbalah is traditionally viewed or defined as a Jewish mysticism that teaches the hidden secrets of the Torah. However, it’s more than a “magical world view,” and more than a way of life, yet still a little of both, intertwined.

What is clear is that Smith and his apostles restated what Moshe Idel, our great living scholar of Kabbalah, persuades me was the archaic or original Jewish religion. . . . My observation certainly does find enormous validity in Smith's imaginative recapture of crucial elements, elements evaded by normative Judaism and by the Church after it. The God of Joseph Smith is a daring revival of the God of some of the Kabbalists and Gnostics, prophetic sages who, like Smith himself, asserted that they had returned to the true religion. . . . Either there was a more direct Kabbalistic influence upon Smith than we know, or, far more likely, his genius reinvented Kabbalah in the effort necessary to restore archaic Judaism Harold Bloom, The American Religion: The Emergence of the Post-Christian Nation (New York: Simon & Shuster, 1992), 99, 105.
 

The Learner

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Emanuel Swedenborg, born 1688, taught that the world of spirits is a preparation for heaven, there are three heavens, marriage is necessary to inherit the holiest of the heavens, the celestial kingdom is divided into three heavens, and there is a balance (opposition) in all things. Such unique and unusual similarities in the teachings of Swedenborg and Joseph Smith naturally prompt one to wonder if Swedenborg influenced LDS doctrine. This paper will analyze the evidence.

Born in Sweden in 1688, Emanuel Swedenborg claims that at the age of 57 he was visited by the Savior and commanded to write the inner meaning of the scriptures and to explain life awaiting man after the death of the physical body. He claims to have been a citizen of both the physical and the spiritual world for approximately 27 years[2], conversing with angels on a daily basis. The Swedish mystic wrote thousands of pages explaining what he learned from angels and inspired insights into the scriptures and claims that he wrote only as the Lord directed.


By Joseph Smith's own statements, he was familiar with Swedenborg's writings. Smith told a convert by the name of Edward Hunter that "Emanuel Swedenborg had a view of the world to come, but for daily food he perished."

I was so fascinated by the connection that Quinn documented, that I bought a copy of Swedenborg's book myself from Amazon.com. It's called "Heaven and Its Wonders and Hell and was written way before Joseph Smith. Yet it describes the three Mormon degrees of glory quite well.
Not only does Quinn make a strong case that Smith knew all about Swedenborg's ideas, but he also shows that his book "Heaven and Hell and Its Wonders" was a book in Smith's hometown library since 1817. Quinn also writes that "Nine miles from Smith's farm, in 1826 the Canandaigua newspaper also advertised Swedenborg's book for sale. The bookstore offered Swedenborg's publications for as little as 37 cents."
 

The Learner

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Who said anything about God changing? Not I! His almighty justice, mercy, glory, etc goes on forever.

Now physical form, that can change. For example, Christ being born of Mary, dying, and resurrected. But that none of that changes God’s mercy, justice, glory, etc.
I quoted LDS sources that says their god changes. Also, their god changed him mind like a man concerning pural marriage. The biblical quotes prove He, God of Bible is not god of LDS prohets.
 

The Learner

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Note: LDS Christians don’t believe that God / Christ has a beginning. He’s always existed.
Freind, I already gave official LDS site quotes that proves he in fact had a beginning. We both know that G_d did not have a beginning. Thus you should dump all the rubbish of LDS Church. Agape, Daniel
 

The Learner

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You call me "friend". If that is true, then actually listen to me for once.

Actual beliefs: LDS Christian believe that Jesus Christ has always existed. Many verses like Revelation 1:8 support this. And yes the Father is Christ's Father- that doesn't change the fact that He's eternal.

Where "anti-Mormon" sources get things wrong: they take LDS Christian sources talking about the Son having a Father, and then blend in the Creedal idea that having parents mean that the person doesn't exist at one point. This is grossly inaccurate strawman and the opposite of actual LDS Christian beliefs.
I only quoted lds sources.
 

The Learner

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2 Maccabees includes the name "Nephi".

View of the Hebrews is an 1823 book written by Ethan Smith, a United States Congregationalist minister, who argued that Native Americans were descended from the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel. This was a relatively common view during the early nineteenth century, as most Europeans and Americans had a view of history as biblical. Numerous commentators on Mormon history, from LDS Church general authority B. H. Roberts to Fawn M. Brodie, biographer of Joseph Smith, have noted similarities in the content of View of the Hebrews and the Book of Mormon, which was first published in 1830, seven years after Ethan Smith's book.

Ethan Smith suggested that Native Americans were descendants of the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel; this theory was held by many theologians and laymen of his day who tried to fit new populations into what they understood of Biblical history, which they felt encompassed the world.

These tribes were believed to have disappeared after being taken captive by the Assyrians in the 8th century BC. Smith's speculation was inspired by the apocryphal 2 Esdras 13:41, which says that the Ten Tribes traveled to a far country, "where never mankind dwelt"—which Smith interpreted to mean North America.

During Smith's day, speculation about the Ten Lost Tribes was heightened both by a renewed interest in biblical prophecy and by the belief that the aboriginal peoples who had been swept aside by European settlers could not have been the same as the ancient people who created the sophisticated earthwork mounds found throughout the Mississippi Valley and southeastern North America. Smith attempted to rescue Indians from the contemporary myth of mound builders being a separate race by making the indigenous people "potential converts worthy of salvation." He also wrote "If our natives be indeed from the tribes of Israel," Smith wrote, "American Christians may well feel, that one great object of their inheritance here, is, that they may have a primary agency in restoring those 'lost sheep of the house of Israel.'"

The Book of Mormon shares some thematic elements with View of the Hebrews. Both books quote extensively from the Old Testament prophecies of the Book of Isaiah; describe the future gathering of Israel and restoration of the Ten Lost Tribes; propose the peopling of the New World from the Old via a long sea journey; declare a religious motive for the migration; divide the migrants into civilized and uncivilized groups with long wars between them and the eventual destruction of the civilized by the uncivilized; assume that Native Americans were descended from Israelites and their languages from Hebrew; include a change of government from monarchy to republican; and suggest that the gospel was preached in ancient America.

Early Mormons occasionally cited the View of the Hebrews to support the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. In the 20th century, Mormon scholars noted the parallels between View of the Hebrews and the Book of Mormon and suggested that Joseph Smith had used View of the Hebrews as a source in composing the Book of Mormon,

read this book if you dare
 

The Learner

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I posted the cover page of the first edition of BOM that lists JS as the author.
 

The Learner

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Parallels between Bunyan’s The Pilgrim's Progress (1678) and the Book of Mormon

In early 1830, an unknown farmer in upstate New York burst upon the world’s book-publishing scene. The Book of Mormon rolled off the Grandin Press in Palmyra, New York, with Joseph Smith listed as “author and proprietor” on the title page

Occulic methods on "translating BOM.
 

Jane_Doe22

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I only quoted lds sources.
You MISquote them because of your foundational misunderstanding (example shown in 361). And then blatantly ignore correction as to actual beliefs from one you call “friend” but treat with unending scorn and deny her relationship with Christ.

You aren’t arguing against “Mormonism”, you are literally arguing against a made up strawman theological stance NO ONE actually believes. It laughable foolishness!
 
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Truthnightmare

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Hi Brother, friend part of my Background ( My Dad had 17 wives, murdered going after the 18th in 1993, when I became the Prophet). The mormon sect was called the Sextons, branched out of King Strang of Beaver Island in Michigan. As the prohet, the real God used me to bring most of them to him. When planting seeds one must plow the soil. One of my Mother's was Jewish, thus I attended Temple School after Public School, traning to become a Rabbi which is why my first language was Hebrew. Some( not a lot) of what comes into LDS theology is from Jewish Mysticism, the Occult like swedenborgianism.

Kabbalah is traditionally viewed or defined as a Jewish mysticism that teaches the hidden secrets of the Torah. However, it’s more than a “magical world view,” and more than a way of life, yet still a little of both, intertwined.

What is clear is that Smith and his apostles restated what Moshe Idel, our great living scholar of Kabbalah, persuades me was the archaic or original Jewish religion. . . . My observation certainly does find enormous validity in Smith's imaginative recapture of crucial elements, elements evaded by normative Judaism and by the Church after it. The God of Joseph Smith is a daring revival of the God of some of the Kabbalists and Gnostics, prophetic sages who, like Smith himself, asserted that they had returned to the true religion. . . . Either there was a more direct Kabbalistic influence upon Smith than we know, or, far more likely, his genius reinvented Kabbalah in the effort necessary to restore archaic Judaism Harold Bloom, The American Religion: The Emergence of the Post-Christian Nation (New York: Simon & Shuster, 1992), 99, 105.
I’m at a lost for words, that is sad… but perhaps it was meant for you to become who you are suppose to be.

Romans
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
 

Mr E

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@The Learner: I’m going to be direct here: your mindless spamming (yes that is what it is), strawman arguments, and unwillingness to address actual points here being a MAJOR turn off. Even the devil can quote scripture. This is behavior is not true discipleship in any form, especially not for a Christian.

If this is all you got, I’m sorry: you’re just providing me with evidence against your faith.

As an unbiased observer here and not a participant until this moment, having fully read through 12 pages of a 19 page conversation.... it's a huge turn off to see you repeatedly ignore actual Mormon Church teachings and documentation of those teachings as if they don't exist.

But they do.
 
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Mr E

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FALSE PROPHETS DO NOT LIKE TO LISTEN TO ANYONE; THEY BELIEVE THAT GOD TELLS THEM EVERYTHING. (ahh cap locks were on, sorry, not yelling.) lol

False prophets view correction as persecution.
Teachings and testimonies that do not fit with the gospel are in darkness. They have no truth.
Teachings and testimonies that do not fit the gospel have no light because they leave out “the light of the world,” Jesus (John 8:12, ESV).
Does the message mix truth with lies?
Do their proclamations come true?

“But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’

And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?’—when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him” (Deuteronomy 18:20–21, ESV

false prophets to be ignored (Deut 13:1-5; 18:21-22; Neh 6:12-13; Jer 23:25-28; Matt 7:15; 24:24; Acts 13:6; 2 Pet 2:1-3; 1 John 4:1-3; Rev 2:20)

“You shall have no other gods before Me” (Deut 5:7), Isa 43:10 wipes out the possiblity of becoming or being exhaulted as a god.


Must Harmonize with Scripture

Prophecies must come to pass --- one prophecy that does not come to pass disqualifies those like JS.

Good list of Bible texts on testing a prophet at What Does the Bible Say About Test Prophets?


According to Deut. 18:20-22:

1. He must speak in the name of the Lord, not some other god.

2. His message must be in accord with God’s revealed truth in Scripture.

3. His predictions of future events must come true exactly as predicted.

I. The Tests of a Genuine Prophet

A. The Test of Agreement With Prior Revelation

Isaiah 8:20 : "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."


1. The test :

a. The teachings of alleged new prophets must not contradict the teachings of old, validated, established prophets.

b. Each succeeding new prophet's utterance must agree with cumulative messages of all the preceding prophets.

c. A modern-day prophet's message must agree with Scripture.

B. The Test of Fulfillment of Prophecy

Jeremiah 28:9 : "When the word of the prophet shall come to pass, then shall the prophet know that the Lord has truly sent him."

Deuteronomy 18:22 : "If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him."

1. The test :

a. Fulfillment of predictions concerning future events.

Jane, I stuck only to Biblical Teachers.

Doug Batchelor? Really? He's SDA.... only a half-degree off mormonism.
 

The Learner

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You MISquote them because of your foundational misunderstanding (example shown in 361). And then blatantly ignore correction as to actual beliefs from one you call “friend” but treat with unending scorn and deny her relationship with Christ.

You aren’t arguing against “Mormonism”, you are literally arguing against a made up strawman theological stance NO ONE actually believes. It laughable foolishness!
Again not strawmen, nice try. It is claimed that JS was uneducated like Mohammad. This list proves otherwise.

Alphabetical list of books donated by Joseph Smith to the Nauvoo Library and Literary Institute, 31 January 1844:
Apochryphal Testament
[William] Beaumont[']s Experiments [and Observations on the Gastric Juice]
[James Arlington] Bennett[']s [The American System of Practical] Book Keeping, 2 copies
Book of Mormon
[James] Brown's [An] Appeal, [from the British System of] gram[mar]
[James] Brown[']s [An] English Syntascope
[John Brown] Dictionary of the Holy Bible
Bruns' Travels
Catholic Manual
Catholic Piety
[A.B. Cleveland] Studies in Poetry & Prose
[John F. Dennett] Voyages & Travels of Ross[,] Perry & others
[Orville Dewey] Old World & the New, vol 1st
[Thomas] Dick[']s Philosophy [of a Future State]
[Philip] Doddrige[']s Sermons
[Benjamin Drake] Life of Tecunseh
Epicureo
[Hiram] Gillmore[']s Lectures [on Christianity]
[Charles A. Goodrich] History of the United States
[James] Hervey[']s Meditations [and Contemplations]
Krumanacher[']s Works
Merrills Harmony
Metropolitan[: A Monthly Journal of Literature, Science, and the Fine Arts]
[John Lawrence] Mosheim[']s Church History, 1 Vol
[Joel] Parker[']s Lectures on Universalism
[Parley P. Pratt] Millen[n]ium & other Poems [1840]
Reld & other Travels
[Charles] Rollin, 2 Vol
Sanders Discourse
[Walter] Scott[']s Poetical Works, in 5 vols
Incidents of Travel in Yucatan, by [John L.] Stephens 2 Vo[ls]
[John L.] Stephens Travels in Central America, 2 Vo[ls]
[Henry Philip Tappan] Review of Edward[']s On [the Freedom of] The Will
Times and Seasons 1 2 3 Vol also Vol 1 & 2
[Francois M.A. Voltaire] Historie de Charles [XII]
[Samuel] Whelpley[']s Compend[ium] [2 copies?]
[Samuel Wilcox] Home Physician
List from Kenneth W. Godfrey, "A Note on the Nauvoo Library and Literary Institute," Brigham Young University Studies 14 (Spring 1974):386-89.


 

Jane_Doe22

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As an unbiased observer here and not a participant until this moment, having fully read through 12 pages of a 19 page conversation.... it's a huge turn off to see you repeatedly ignore actual Mormon Church teachings and documentation of those teachings as if they don't exist.

But they do.
If you want me to address an actual point, then ask and I will happily answer.

I am not answering The Learner’s endless spam mindless copy pasting other people’s strawman, just to be continually ignored.
 
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Jane_Doe22

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Again not strawmen, nice try. It is claimed that JS was uneducated like Mohammad. This list proves otherwise.

Alphabetical list of books donated by Joseph Smith to the Nauvoo Library and Literary Institute, 31 January 1844:
Apochryphal Testament
[William] Beaumont[']s Experiments [and Observations on the Gastric Juice]
[James Arlington] Bennett[']s [The American System of Practical] Book Keeping, 2 copies
Book of Mormon
[James] Brown's [An] Appeal, [from the British System of] gram[mar]
[James] Brown[']s [An] English Syntascope
[John Brown] Dictionary of the Holy Bible
Bruns' Travels
Catholic Manual
Catholic Piety
[A.B. Cleveland] Studies in Poetry & Prose
[John F. Dennett] Voyages & Travels of Ross[,] Perry & others
[Orville Dewey] Old World & the New, vol 1st
[Thomas] Dick[']s Philosophy [of a Future State]
[Philip] Doddrige[']s Sermons
[Benjamin Drake] Life of Tecunseh
Epicureo
[Hiram] Gillmore[']s Lectures [on Christianity]
[Charles A. Goodrich] History of the United States
[James] Hervey[']s Meditations [and Contemplations]
Krumanacher[']s Works
Merrills Harmony
Metropolitan[: A Monthly Journal of Literature, Science, and the Fine Arts]
[John Lawrence] Mosheim[']s Church History, 1 Vol
[Joel] Parker[']s Lectures on Universalism
[Parley P. Pratt] Millen[n]ium & other Poems [1840]
Reld & other Travels
[Charles] Rollin, 2 Vol
Sanders Discourse
[Walter] Scott[']s Poetical Works, in 5 vols
Incidents of Travel in Yucatan, by [John L.] Stephens 2 Vo[ls]
[John L.] Stephens Travels in Central America, 2 Vo[ls]
[Henry Philip Tappan] Review of Edward[']s On [the Freedom of] The Will
Times and Seasons 1 2 3 Vol also Vol 1 & 2
[Francois M.A. Voltaire] Historie de Charles [XII]
[Samuel] Whelpley[']s Compend[ium] [2 copies?]
[Samuel Wilcox] Home Physician
List from Kenneth W. Godfrey, "A Note on the Nauvoo Library and Literary Institute," Brigham Young University Studies 14 (Spring 1974):386-89.



Once again: ignoring the point. Pure Foolishness.
Once again, you’ve completely ignored everything I’ve said. Pure repulsive foolishness.
 
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The Learner

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The angel and the sorcerer : the remarkable story of the occult origins of Mormonism and the rise of Mormons in American politics / Peter Levenda.
One God, many gods : Bible studies for postmodern times / [authors, Tom Couser ... et al. ; editor, Tom Nummela].
"Christianity: a standard of comparison -- Judaism: the descendants of Abraham -- Hinduism: triving for Nirvana -- Buddhism: the eightfold path -- Shinto: the national worship of Japan -- Islam: Allah and his prophet -- Satanism and the Occult: worhipping evil -- Mormonism (Latter-day saints): "As God is, man may become" -- Jehovah's witnesses: Jehovah who? -- Scientology: a theology of mental health -- New Age thinking: everyone and everything is God? -- Atheists, Agnostics, and skeptics: questions about the existence of God."
Joseph Smith's 1838-39 Diaries. Salt Lake City: Modern Microfilm, 1982.