Protestant Apostasy Pending?

[shnarkle]

brakelite

Of course Sunday is a day approved by God for believers to meet and worship God and Christ. That doesn't mean it is a law that we meet on Sundays. That would be contrary to the Gospel message of Grace.

But Sunday is the day of resurrection. (John 20:1) " The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre." Thus it was natural for believers to meet on Sunday in honor of the resurrection of Christ. (Acts 20:7) "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them..."

The Sabbath is certainly not the day for Christians to meet. Why would they place themselves under law in their worship of Christ Who placed them under Grace.

Stranger

Paul himself states that he is "under the law to Christ". Long after Christ had died and gone to heaven, the church was growing in numbers with gentile converts going into the synagogues on the Sabbath and learning God's law. This is explicitly stated in Acts 15: 19-21. When the gentiles come to hear Paul preach, they ask him if he will be back on the following Sabbath. What a perfect opportunity for Paul to point out that he will not need to wait until the next Sabbath, but he will be preaching to them the very next day; the first day of the week; the day of our Lord's resurrection. He simply informs them that he will be back the following Sabbath. Perhaps he didn't get the memo...

 

[shnarkle]

I am thankful for my fellow Christian Constantine for restoring religious freedom, returning property previously confiscated from Christians, ordering the publication of Bibles and for promoting Christians to public office. Constantine favored the Christian faith. There is nothing wrong with that.

The idea that Christians lacked all power or political sway prior to the rise of Constantine is one of the silliest aspects of the popular apostasy myth.

BTW......Pence isn't a Catholic. There are many problems with your bizarre post but that one is simply not a fact and an easily provable lie.

Paganism officially entered the church by way of Sunday? Once again, simply not a fact and a provable lie:

We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead (Letter of Barnabas A.D. 74).

But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead (Justin Martyr A.D. 155).

Let him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation.....(Tertullian, An Answer to the Jews 2 A.D. 203).

Before the ink was dry on Paul's letters, he had already pointed out that a great deception was taking place.

The early church kept the Sabbath as well as the rest of the Mosaic law.

"Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day." Acts. 15:19-21

 

[Stranger]

The law can compel no one to do anything. One either sees the benefit of God's law or they don't. One can believe that God has given His law for our benefit and act on that belief by keeping God's laws. This in and of itself is usually enough to see the benefits, this is what is known as how to learn by doing. The beneficial effects are seen.

This isn't to say that there aren't those who keep God's laws for quite some time, and then fall away. This does happen as well. They just simply don't see the benefits of keeping God's laws.

The Law does compel. It just doesn't have the power to make you obedient. But it expects and demands your obedience. It compels and finds you guilty of breaking it.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Paul himself states that he is "under the law to Christ". Long after Christ had died and gone to heaven, the church was growing in numbers with gentile converts going into the synagogues on the Sabbath and learning God's law. This is explicitly stated in Acts 15: 19-21. When the gentiles come to hear Paul preach, they ask him if he will be back on the following Sabbath. What a perfect opportunity for Paul to point out that he will not need to wait until the next Sabbath, but he will be preaching to them the very next day; the first day of the week; the day of our Lord's resurrection. He simply informs them that he will be back the following Sabbath. Perhaps he didn't get the memo...

The law of Christ is not the Mosaic Law. Just because the word 'law' is used doesn't always speak to the Mosaic Law.

Gentile Christians were not going to to synogogues. Jewish Christians still had a tendency to continue meeting in synogogues. But, they were wrong in doing so. Read the whole book of Hebrews.

I don't see any proof of what you said in the verses you gave. In fact, it proves just the opposite. Gentiles are not to be under the Law.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

God's law is synonymous with His will; perhaps we could say it is synonymous with his nature. Ex. 20 is also observed within the context of a covenant with God. One where God proves His chosen people. James makes the same claim in the new testament by pointing out that one's faith is evident by their works. Paul also points out that "faith establishes the law". Regardless of where one cites God's commands, they are for our benefit, and only a fool would ignore God's gifts. One could assume that God made this same covenant with Adam as well, but if that's the case then it really makes no difference which passage is cited. If, however, we assume that God hadn't made a covenant with Adam at this time, then the safe bet would be to cite Ex. 20.

I never said there was anything wrong with the Law. There isn't. The problem is with me being able to keep it. I can't. Nor can anyone else.

Works of faith are not works of law.

You can cite Ex. 20 if you want to be under law. Go ahead. Better memorize (Gal.3:10) along with it. "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

well, so then note that you are not stoned for not keeping the Sabbath now, and are not even condemned as a law breaker. Heck, Obama even made Saturday "Small Bidness Day" for you to go and celebrate that way, if you like. Go shopping.

Will you now go and break the law, just because you are no longer a slave to it?

 

[tom55]

I recognize the apostasy occuring in the Protestant church today. But the Reformation was not an apostasy. It was a 'reformation'.

So, tell me, when did the apostasy occur in the Roman Catholic Church? Don't say the 'Reformation'. When did the Catholic Church recognize it was in error, and attempted to correct that error?

Stranger

Doctrinal error or errors of failing the people of the church via scandals and personal failings?

The RCC, the pillar and foundation of truth, has not committed any doctrinal errors but it has committed many personal or scandalous errors.

The Church recognized it's errors in the late Middle Ages. That's when became aware of the need for change/renewal in the Church. Religious orders of the time were notorious for their failings/scandals. Bishops and Abbots were corrupt and blind to the problems faced by the Church. The Church’s leaders were too concerned with material value and were doing little to promote spirituality and the sacraments. These were failings of man not doctrine.

 

[tom55]

The Bible declares unequivocally that the Sabbath, Saturday, is the 7th day, and is holy and sanctified. That is Bible truth. Now you can of course choose to observe any day you wish...I will not argue with you on that score...and if you choose to keep another day fine, whether its the 8th day according to Barnabus, or the 1st day according to Tertulian that is your business. Just don't bother attempting to convince me that Sunday is a day approved of God...it is not, and there is nothing in scripture to prove otherwise. Sunday sacredness is a day sanctified and made mandatory by the Roman Catholic church, and handed down under pressure of persecution to the Protestant churches, tainted with pagan history, and having no Biblical support whatsoever. It is a church law, in direct contradiction to God's law. Follow your church if you must, but stop pretending your church is Biblical. Even your church boasts that nowhere in scripture is Sunday mandated. Nowhere. It is a church ordinance and that is all. Keeping Sunday is an observation you owe to Rome, not God.
And if you show me evidence (other than a declared "born again" experience) that Pence has thrown off his Catholic ties, great.

Follow your church (your personal beliefs) if you must, but stop pretending your beliefs are Biblical.

 

[tom55]

Before the ink was dry on Paul's letters, he had already pointed out that a great deception was taking place.

The early church kept the Sabbath as well as the rest of the Mosaic law.

"Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day." Acts. 15:19-21

The early church kept the Sabbath?

The Didache: But every Lord's day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. [A.D. 70]

Pseudo-Barnabas: "We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (Epistle of Barnabas 15:6-8 (A.D. 80)

Ignatius: "[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's day..." Letter to the Magnesians 8 (A.D. 107).

Tertullian: Let him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation...(AD 203)

What I just quoted spans the first 150 years of Christianity. So how can you say that "The early church kept the Sabbath"? The historical facts prove you wrong.

 

[Stranger]

Doctrinal error or errors of failing the people of the church via scandals and personal failings?

The RCC, the pillar and foundation of truth, has not committed any doctrinal errors but it has committed many personal or scandalous errors.

The Church recognized it's errors in the late Middle Ages. That's when became aware of the need for change/renewal in the Church. Religious orders of the time were notorious for their failings/scandals. Bishops and Abbots were corrupt and blind to the problems faced by the Church. The Church’s leaders were too concerned with material value and were doing little to promote spirituality and the sacraments. These were failings of man not doctrine.

You are a testimony to the apostasy of the Roman Church. Every group of believers have been guilty of doctrinal apostasy. Every one. But, you say the Roman Church has not. You deceive yourself, and probably believe it.

Stranger

 

[tom55]

You are a testimony to the apostasy of the Roman Church. Every group of believers have been guilty of doctrinal apostasy. Every one. But, you say the Roman Church has not. You deceive yourself, and probably believe it.

Stranger

APOSTASY defined: the abandonment or renunciation of a religious belief.

Every group of believers have been guilty of doctrinal apostasy???? Every ONE????

Every denomination has abandoned or renounced Christianity via their doctrinal beliefs?

NO denomination has The Truth? NO denomination has been able to correctly interpret scripture to determine the truth? Everyone is wrong????

 

[Stranger]

APOSTASY defined: the abandonment or renunciation of a religious belief.

Every group of believers have been guilty of doctrinal apostasy???? Every ONE????

Every denomination has abandoned or renounced Christianity via their doctrinal beliefs?

NO denomination has The Truth? NO denomination has been able to correctly interpret scripture to determine the truth? Everyone is wrong?

Every group of Christians, no matter who they are, will experience apostasy as a group. Because over time, Satan will plant his seeds within that group and they will come to fruition.

No, they don't have to renounce Christianity or Jesus Christ to become apostate. That is the snake like danger. That you apparently are blind to. You know what the greatest fear you experience when you come across the poisonosus snake in the wild. He is right there next to you...and you didn't see him. Apostasy.

Stranger

 

[tom55]

Every group of Christians, no matter who they are, will experience apostasy as a group. Because over time, Satan will plant his seeds within that group and they will come to fruition.

No, they don't have to renounce Christianity or Jesus Christ to become apostate. That is the snake like danger. That you apparently are blind to. You know what the greatest fear you experience when you come across the poisonosus snake in the wild. He is right there next to you...and you didn't see him. Apostasy.

Stranger

[SIZE=medium]According to your theory every church that adopts a doctrine could start off being right. But over time they will eventually become apostate and be wrong because satan will plant his seed? That theory makes NO sense. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium] How do we know if they are right or wrong? Who decides? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Maybe your theory is wrong because satan has already planted his seed in you? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]How is the Holy Spirit soooo confused that he can’t lead us to unity and the truth?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]All denominations (and individuals) CLAIM the Holy Spirit guided them to “The Truth”. Since there are so many “truths” claimed by so many denominations I have to ask you to explain to me: [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Why is the Holy Spirit allowing so much confusion and giving everyone different “truths”? Is the Holy Spirit confused about the truth?[/SIZE]

 

[epostle1]

Every group of Christians, no matter who they are, will experience apostasy as a group. Because over time, Satan will plant his seeds within that group and they will come to fruition.

No, they don't have to renounce Christianity or Jesus Christ to become apostate. That is the snake like danger. That you apparently are blind to. You know what the greatest fear you experience when you come across the poisonosus snake in the wild. He is right there next to you...and you didn't see him. Apostasy.

Stranger

What year or council did this alleged monumentous apostasy take place that no one noticed until the middle of a revolt?

 

[Stranger]

What year or council did this alleged monumentous apostasy take place that no one noticed until the middle of a revolt?

Your question makes no sense.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

[SIZE=medium]According to your theory every church that adopts a doctrine could start off being right. But over time they will eventually become apostate and be wrong because satan will plant his seed? That theory makes NO sense. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium] How do we know if they are right or wrong? Who decides? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Maybe your theory is wrong because satan has already planted his seed in you? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]How is the Holy Spirit soooo confused that he can’t lead us to unity and the truth?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]All denominations (and individuals) CLAIM the Holy Spirit guided them to “The Truth”. Since there are so many “truths” claimed by so many denominations I have to ask you to explain to me: [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Why is the Holy Spirit allowing so much confusion and giving everyone different “truths”? Is the Holy Spirit confused about the truth?[/SIZE]

Why doesn't it make sense? It is what has happened. Though you refuse to believe it.

The Holy Spirit does lead us into all truth. But another spirit is at work also. Because you refuse to acknowledge it, makes the apostasy easier to obtain by the other one.

The Holy Spirit is not confused about the truth. But you and others who refuse to see the effort of satan in planting his seeds of lies among the truth, allow the lie to be established.

Stranger

 

[epostle1]

OK, so you can't give a date. That's because there never was an apostasy in the historic Church. We have promises from God that would never happen. The Bible repeatedly tells us the Church is infallible and indefectable. You accept parts of the Bible but not all of it.

The Holy Spirit guides THE CHURCH into all truth, the Bible says nothing about guiding individual Bible readers into all truth. You answered your own question: why there are so many different truths.

 

[Stranger]

Apostasy doesn't have a certain date.

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

amen--it occurs when Christ Himself comes down and insures you that the Sabbath was made for man, and you disregard it

 

[tom55]

Why doesn't it make sense? It is what has happened. Though you refuse to believe it.

The Holy Spirit does lead us into all truth. But another spirit is at work also. Because you refuse to acknowledge it, makes the apostasy easier to obtain by the other one.

The Holy Spirit is not confused about the truth. But you and others who refuse to see the effort of satan in planting his seeds of lies among the truth, allow the lie to be established.

Stranger

Let me see if I understand your theory.

Church XYZ starts out with sound doctrine. They know it is sound doctrine because The Holy Spirit has led the good people of church XYZ to the truth.

But another spirit is at work in church XYZ. He is like a snake, right there next to the members of church XYZ but they don't see him. Over time that snake (Satan) plants his seed into church XYZ and then, at some point, an apostasy occurs. Now church XYZ no longer has the truth.

That is how I understand your scenario. Is that accurate?