Protestant Apostasy Pending?

[Stranger]

Let me see if I understand your theory.

Church XYZ starts out with sound doctrine. They know it is sound doctrine because The Holy Spirit has led the good people of church XYZ to the truth.

But another spirit is at work in church XYZ. He is like a snake, right there next to the members of church XYZ but they don't see him. Over time that snake (Satan) plants his seed into church XYZ and then, at some point, an apostasy occurs. Now church XYZ no longer has the truth.

That is how I understand your scenario. Is that accurate?

The Church can still have elements of truth in it. But over time, yes, the church becomes apostate. Every member of that church may not be in an apostate condition. But then they will be in disagreement over several doctrines or ordinances, or practices of the church.

Stranger

 

[tom55]

The Church can still have elements of truth in it. But over time, yes, the church becomes apostate. Every member of that church may not be in an apostate condition. But then they will be in disagreement over several doctrines or ordinances, or practices of the church.

Stranger

No church has the truth which means all churches (denominations) have some elements of the truth.

Based on your theory the Holy Spirit is confused.

Church XYZ prays for guidance from the Holy Spirit and they feel like the Holy Spirit guided them to believe baptism saves, the real presence at communion, Jesus is man and God. Insert any doctrine you want_________.

Church ABC believes totally opposite of church XYZ and they felt they were guided by the Holy Spirit.

That means either someone is lying OR the Holy Spirit is guiding only one of the churches into The Truth.....OR both of them into partial truths. Which one?

Your theory makes no sense.

 

[Stranger]

No church has the truth which means all churches (denominations) have some elements of the truth.

Based on your theory the Holy Spirit is confused.

Church XYZ prays for guidance from the Holy Spirit and they feel like the Holy Spirit guided them to believe baptism saves, the real presence at communion, Jesus is man and God. Insert any doctrine you want_________.

Church ABC believes totally opposite of church XYZ and they felt they were guided by the Holy Spirit.

That means either someone is lying OR the Holy Spirit is guiding only one of the churches into The Truth.....OR both of them into partial truths. Which one?

Your theory makes no sense.

No, the Holy Spirit is not confused. But not everything that goes on in the Church is of the Holy Spirit. Not every doctrine is of the Holy Spirit.

You want to make it one or the other. But, as I said, most churches, or all churches have elements of truth in them. The universal church exists within all these churches. But the local churches are constantly at war with apostasy. And that is all the Roman Church is...a local Church.

Stranger

 

[tom55]

No, the Holy Spirit is not confused. But not everything that goes on in the Church is of the Holy Spirit. Not every doctrine is of the Holy Spirit.

You want to make it one or the other. But, as I said, most churches, or all churches have elements of truth in them. The universal church exists within all these churches. But the local churches are constantly at war with apostasy. And that is all the Roman Church is...a local Church.

Stranger

How do you know which doctrines are of the Holy Spirit and which ones are of Satan?

Church XYZ believes that baptism is NECESSARY for salvation so they make it part of their doctrine that you have to be baptized to be saved ('baptism now saves you' 1 Peter 3:21). Church XYZ believes the Holy Spirit led them to that truth. According to your theory it could have been Satan deceiving them to adopt that doctrine so they are in reality, without even knowing it, teaching a false doctrine?

Church ABC believes baptism is just a symbol and not necessary for salvation. They believe the Holy Spirit led THEM to the truth about baptism. But in reality church ABC could be wrong because Satan is deceiving them....OR they could be right. After all, the Holy Spirit told them they were right.....or was it really Satan? <_<

Only one of them is right about baptism. According to your theory the Holy Spirit is keeping Christians in the dark about who is right!! The Holy Spirit does not want us to know the Truth.

According to your theory The Church is not the pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Timothy 3:16)? It is really the pillar and foundation of whatever you think might be true but you will never know because no one knows the truth. It is built on shifting sands and not on a Rock like Jesus said it would be built on. It may as well be invisible since we can't find The Truth and no one knows the Truth.

Scripture is wrong when it says "....when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth."? And when the Apostles were told, "the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." That was meant for the Apostles only. After the Apostle died the Holy Spirit stopped guiding The Church to The Truth?

When Jesus said, "Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me." That was meant for the Apostles only? After they died all the Truth was gone and no one else was able to speak The Truth.....even the men the Apostles trained?


That is how your theory would work in reality but in reality, your theory doesn't work and is opposite of what scripture says.

 

[Stranger]

tom55

As I said, apostasy does not happen on a certain date. It is a progression of wrong teaching, or doctrine, or practices leading it eventually into an apostate condition. Many Protestant churches are in an apostate condition, but not all because they are not controlled by one central authority. The Roman church does have a central authority and is in an apostate condition, and as a result all of its churches are infected by that apostasy.

You know which doctrines are of God because you have the Bible and the Holy Spirit. Thus when the Pastor or the Pope gets up there and starts speaking, you check what he says with the Bible. And if he is speaking contrary to the Bible, you bring it up before the church. It's not hard. But it takes a people willing to do it.

I never said no one knows the truth, that is what your saying I said. Because we have the Bible and the Holy Spirit we can know the truth. The universal church of Jesus Christ is the pillar and ground of the truth. As is the local church until it becomes apostate. Then as a church it is not proclaiming the truth but proclaiming lies. There are individuals in that church that can still be believers and believe and know the truth, but, for whatever reason, cannot change the church. And when it has progressed that far one needs to leave and find another.

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

i don't know; i think one can be a light right where they are. It is likely that when you reduce Christ to a religious practice that you are doomed, anyway. If you can't find God where you are, whatever situation you are in, then i don't think finding some other group of religious practitioners is going to help much. It even amounts to seeking someone to "point" to the kingdom for you, in some other congregation, imo. Don't get me wrong, though, i think there is a time to find a new Right Pastor, when the Spirit leads you...but you should also at some point be driven into the wilderness, an experience that i think most believers avoid like the plague, just like we avoid most of the rest of Christ's explicit instructions in the Gospels, and replace these with debates about transubstantiation or eschatology, or any of a number of religious concepts, which you might note will always be about something that happened in the past, or are supposed happen in the future--these are signs.

Blindness to Scriptures that don't fit with your doctrines always accompany this, too, i have noticed. The reasoning is usually that the passage is being taken out of context, or was not meant for you, today, something like that. See, once you have "If a man will not work, neither let him eat" repeated to you a few times, with emphasis, then "Don't work for food..." cannot even be practically seen; there is what can only be termed a Law now, in your mind, that goes something like "If you want to eat (consume), you better have a job," and this becomes your doctrine, likely reinforced by your disgust at those who eat but do not work or whatever, reinforced by the 1% who are better or more clever at working, and thus consume at a higher level than you.

And so your doctrine, which started out as one half of a sound idea, becomes your master, and moving to another congregation is not going to help you there. Better to focus on the congregation inside of you, that is at odds, at war...and perhaps i am saying too much now, but a rope of three cords is not easily broken, and although one is generally described as "two" in the Book, we are actually 3 also, termed heart, mind, and gut (liver or kidneys, in Scripture parlance, with i guess some further distinctions available too), and there is a reason only "2" of the original Wanderers crossed the Jordan, and there is a reason the 3rd, Moses, "witnessed" from "a mountaintop." Which has a significant name, even. But i have got ahead of myself here, this comes after seeing that all those other Wanderers (thoughts, beliefs, doctrines) "didn't make it," but at the same time the same group of Wanderers still made it, only they were now "changed."

 

[tom55]

tom55

As I said, apostasy does not happen on a certain date. It is a progression of wrong teaching, or doctrine, or practices leading it eventually into an apostate condition. Many Protestant churches are in an apostate condition, but not all because they are not controlled by one central authority. The Roman church does have a central authority and is in an apostate condition, and as a result all of its churches are infected by that apostasy.

You know which doctrines are of God because you have the Bible and the Holy Spirit. Thus when the Pastor or the Pope gets up there and starts speaking, you check what he says with the Bible. And if he is speaking contrary to the Bible, you bring it up before the church. It's not hard. But it takes a people willing to do it.

I never said no one knows the truth, that is what your saying I said. Because we have the Bible and the Holy Spirit we can know the truth. The universal church of Jesus Christ is the pillar and ground of the truth. As is the local church until it becomes apostate. Then as a church it is not proclaiming the truth but proclaiming lies. There are individuals in that church that can still be believers and believe and know the truth, but, for whatever reason, cannot change the church. And when it has progressed that far one needs to leave and find another.

Stranger

How do you know that "Many Protestant churches are in an apostate condition"? According to you not all Protestant Churches are in an apostate condition. Can you name which ones are NOT in an apostate condition?

How do you know that "The Roman church..... is in an apostate condition"? Central Authority = apostate condition? Is that biblical??

How do we "....know which doctrines are of God because you have the Bible and the Holy Spirit"?

Do the Protestant Churches use the Bible and claim the Holy Spirit guided them to The Truth? Who decides when they have had a "progression of wrong teaching, or doctrine, or practices leading it eventually into an apostate condition"? Based on your theory someone has to decide they are in an apostate condition (which I might add you have already done). Who has the authority to decide when they are in an apostate condition?

Doesn't the Roman Church use the bible and claim the Holy Spirit guided them to The Truth? Who decides when they have had a "progression of wrong teaching, or doctrine, or practices leading it eventually into an apostate condition"?

Based on your statements YOU have already decided "Many Protestant churches are in an apostate condition, but not all..." and that "The Roman church....is in an apostate condition" because they have a central authority.

By what authority do you make this judgment and VERY SERIOUS accusation (apostasy) upon everyone else?

 

[bbyrd009]

i'm not sure "proclaiming lies" is the most generous characterization there. Would you appreciate me saying that you are "proclaiming lies" @ "Sabbath?"

 

[Stranger]

How do you know that "Many Protestant churches are in an apostate condition"? According to you not all Protestant Churches are in an apostate condition. Can you name which ones are NOT in an apostate condition?

How do you know that "The Roman church..... is in an apostate condition"? Central Authority = apostate condition? Is that biblical??

How do we "....know which doctrines are of God because you have the Bible and the Holy Spirit"?

Do the Protestant Churches use the Bible and claim the Holy Spirit guided them to The Truth? Who decides when they have had a "progression of wrong teaching, or doctrine, or practices leading it eventually into an apostate condition"? Based on your theory someone has to decide they are in an apostate condition (which I might add you have already done). Who has the authority to decide when they are in an apostate condition?

Doesn't the Roman Church use the bible and claim the Holy Spirit guided them to The Truth? Who decides when they have had a "progression of wrong teaching, or doctrine, or practices leading it eventually into an apostate condition"?

Based on your statements YOU have already decided "Many Protestant churches are in an apostate condition, but not all..." and that "The Roman church....is in an apostate condition" because they have a central authority.

By what authority do you make this judgment and VERY SERIOUS accusation (apostasy) upon everyone else?

All you have really said in your post is 'how do you know'? "How do you know", " Who decides", " By what authority". This is your same old song and dance.

As I have said, we who are Christian have the Bible and the Holy Spirit. We don't need the Pope. We don't need a preacher or pastor. We don't need the Roman Church to tell us what we are to believe and know.

The Roman Church was in apostate condition by the time of Luther. That is why the Reformation began. Instead of reforming, the Roman Church dug in and continued on in its apostasy adding books to the Bible etc. etc. And, continues today.

And, I didn't say 'central authority' = apostate condition. What I said was, because the Roman Church has a central authority, who is the Pope, when apostasy comes to the Roman Church, then all Roman Churches are affected...or infected. And so they are.

Answer this. Is the Pope a sinner? Is he saved by grace? Can he make mistakes as a sinner? Where is your authority?

Stranger

 

[tom55]

All you have really said in your post is 'how do you know'? "How do you know", " Who decides", " By what authority". This is your same old song and dance.

As I have said, we who are Christian have the Bible and the Holy Spirit. We don't need the Pope. We don't need a preacher or pastor. We don't need the Roman Church to tell us what we are to believe and know.

The Roman Church was in apostate condition by the time of Luther. That is why the Reformation began. Instead of reforming, the Roman Church dug in and continued on in its apostasy adding books to the Bible etc. etc. And, continues today.

And, I didn't say 'central authority' = apostate condition. What I said was, because the Roman Church has a central authority, who is the Pope, when apostasy comes to the Roman Church, then all Roman Churches are affected...or infected. And so they are.

Answer this. Is the Pope a sinner? Is he saved by grace? Can he make mistakes as a sinner? Where is your authority?

Stranger

I keep saying it because you never answer it...

"we who are Christian have the Bible and the Holy Spirit. We don't need the Pope..... a preacher or pastor....... the Roman Church to tell us what we are to believe and know". So if a person goes to an established church that has a central authority that means they don't have the bible and the Holy Spirit to guide them so they are not Christian? Where does it say that in the bible?

I wonder what happened to all the Christians that didn't have the bible to read because it hadn't been written yet?

I wonder what happened to all the Christians who didn't have a bible to read before the printing press came along?

Since the average person COULDN'T read until the printing press came along I wonder what those illiterate people did to become Christian? After all, they couldn't read the bible. :wacko:

I have The Church to guide me to The Truth. You have yourself to guide you to the truth. What is different about you and I?

You said, "Many Protestant churches are in an apostate condition, but not all because they are not controlled by one central authority. The Roman church does have a central authority and is in an apostate condition, and as a result all of its churches are infected by that apostasy.

You are equating central authority to an apostate condition........Those are YOUR words....... But NOW you are saying you didn't say that???? weird

Is the Pope a sinner? YES

Is he saved by grace? YES, but not by grace alone.

Can he make mistakes as a sinner? YES

Where is your authority? The Church which was established by Jesus Christ which is the pillar and foundation of Church.

See how easy it was to answer your question.

Now answer it for me: Where is YOUR authority???? (I have asked this several times and you still haven't answered me )

 

[Stranger]

I keep saying it because you never answer it...

"we who are Christian have the Bible and the Holy Spirit. We don't need the Pope..... a preacher or pastor....... the Roman Church to tell us what we are to believe and know". So if a person goes to an established church that has a central authority that means they don't have the bible and the Holy Spirit to guide them so they are not Christian? Where does it say that in the bible?

I wonder what happened to all the Christians that didn't have the bible to read because it hadn't been written yet?

I wonder what happened to all the Christians who didn't have a bible to read before the printing press came along?

Since the average person COULDN'T read until the printing press came along I wonder what those illiterate people did to become Christian? After all, they couldn't read the bible. :wacko:

I have The Church to guide me to The Truth. You have yourself to guide you to the truth. What is different about you and I?

You said, "Many Protestant churches are in an apostate condition, but not all because they are not controlled by one central authority. The Roman church does have a central authority and is in an apostate condition, and as a result all of its churches are infected by that apostasy.

You are equating central authority to an apostate condition........Those are YOUR words....... But NOW you are saying you didn't say that???? weird

Is the Pope a sinner? YES

Is he saved by grace? YES, but not by grace alone.

Can he make mistakes as a sinner? YES

Where is your authority? The Church which was established by Jesus Christ which is the pillar and foundation of Church.

See how easy it was to answer your question.

Now answer it for me: Where is YOUR authority???? (I have asked this several times and you still haven't answered me )

No, I always answer it. The Bible and the Holy Spirit.

Please pay attention. If a believer belongs to a church which has a central authority, as the Roman Church does, It doesn't mean they are not Christian. It does mean that when the central controlling authority goes amiss, then they go amiss with it.

All Christians had the word of God. Whether it was the Old Testament Scripture, or the letters of the apostles.

Stupid. Did the printing press teach the people to read? It wasn't so much being ignorant of reading, but of reading in your own language.

The difference between you and I is that you are trusting in the Pope for your belief. I don't put the Pope above the Bible. You do.

Again, pay attention. Because the Roman Church is controlled by a central authority, when that authority is wrong and apostasy results, it affects every Roman Church.

If the Pope is not saved by grace alone, then he is not saved. See.....the apostasy.

I have answered you many times. You just don't listen. The Bible and the Holy Spirit.

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

If a believer belongs to a church which has a central authority, as the Roman Church does, It doesn't mean they are not Christian. It does mean that when the central controlling authority goes amiss, then they go amiss with it.

the same concept applies to a believer who belongs to a country. People, "Christians," like to dissociate themselves from this, and still vote, but this is simply hypocrisy. As those who are called by His Name go, so goes the nation. The rest of the people, "the sea," are not even regarded; it is those who are perceived as being believers--or "called by" His Name--that God listens to, which i think can easily be established by Scripture.

So to put that more plainly, the state of the nation is a direct reflection of the people who claim to follow Christ within it. I guess this speaks more to the called than the chosen? Which seems counter-intuitive, hmm.

 

[tom55]

:blink:

No, I always answer it. The Bible and the Holy Spirit.

Please pay attention. If a believer belongs to a church which has a central authority, as the Roman Church does, It doesn't mean they are not Christian. It does mean that when the central controlling authority goes amiss, then they go amiss with it.

All Christians had the word of God. Whether it was the Old Testament Scripture, or the letters of the apostles.

Stupid. Did the printing press teach the people to read? It wasn't so much being ignorant of reading, but of reading in your own language.

The difference between you and I is that you are trusting in the Pope for your belief. I don't put the Pope above the Bible. You do.

Again, pay attention. Because the Roman Church is controlled by a central authority, when that authority is wrong and apostasy results, it affects every Roman Church.

If the Pope is not saved by grace alone, then he is not saved. See.....the apostasy.

I have answered you many times. You just don't listen. The Bible and the Holy Spirit.

Stranger

The RCC and Baptist and Methodist and Mormons and Muslims and Stranger (sitting in his basement with 4-5 of his best friends) ALL have the Bible and the Holy Spirit to guide them to The Truth. However, Stranger and his friends are the ones who got it right....everyone else is probably wrong. Just ask Stranger....he will tell you if your right OR wrong. <_<

So the Church with central authority goes amiss but the individual person who accepts and practices the teachings of that Church with central authority, they (the individual) don't go amiss? The individual is still a Christian even though they are practicing things that are taught by a central authority but not taught by Christ? That makes sense.... :blink:

STUPID....Well look at you. Being all Christian like. :wub: But, once again, you didn't answer the question.

The Pope above the bible? LOL.......Your killing me.... . You rely on yourself to properly interpret scripture. I rely on The Church which is the pillar and foundation of truth.

The bible doesn't teach we are saved by grace ALONE. You and your bible study friends need to talk to the Holy Spirit again about that. Maybe Satan has entered your bible study and is not allowing that fact to be revealed to you? That is the snake like danger that you apparently are blind to. You refuse to see the effort of satan in planting his seeds of lies among the truth and you have allowed the lie to be established. He is right there next to you...and you didn't see him. (Your theory, not mine).

Your theory is not based on scripture or logic. I wish you well.

God bless.......Tom

 

[Stranger]

:blink:
The RCC and Baptist and Methodist and Mormons and Muslims and Stranger (sitting in his basement with 4-5 of his best friends) ALL have the Bible and the Holy Spirit to guide them to The Truth. However, Stranger and his friends are the ones who got it right....everyone else is probably wrong. Just ask Stranger....he will tell you if your right OR wrong. <_<

So the Church with central authority goes amiss but the individual person who accepts and practices the teachings of that Church with central authority, they (the individual) don't go amiss? The individual is still a Christian even though they are practicing things that are taught by a central authority but not taught by Christ? That makes sense.... :blink:

STUPID....Well look at you. Being all Christian like. :wub: But, once again, you didn't answer the question.

The Pope above the bible? LOL.......Your killing me.... . You rely on yourself to properly interpret scripture. I rely on The Church which is the pillar and foundation of truth.

The bible doesn't teach we are saved by grace ALONE. You and your bible study friends need to talk to the Holy Spirit again about that. Maybe Satan has entered your bible study and is not allowing that fact to be revealed to you? That is the snake like danger that you apparently are blind to. You refuse to see the effort of satan in planting his seeds of lies among the truth and you have allowed the lie to be established. He is right there next to you...and you didn't see him. (Your theory, not mine).

Your theory is not based on scripture or logic. I wish you well.

God bless.......Tom

Indeed, through the Scripture I will contest with others what is right or wrong. Scripture being the 66 books of the Bible. Hopefully, we can come to an agreement. If we cannot, then I don't sacrifice what I believe Scripture to teach just for the sake of some pius unity. Pseudo unity.

Again, please pay attention. I said the individual Christian goes amiss with the wrong teaching of the Church with central authority. Though this individual has been born again, despite the teaching of Rome, because he remains in the Roman Church, he goes amiss with them. The central authority of the Roman Church takes all its churches down with it. Take Daniel for example. Was he a man of God? Most definitely. Was he a prophet? Of course. But was he carried away into judgemental captivity by God through the Babylonians? And treated wrongfully by them? Yes. Why? Because he was part of the people of God who became apostate.

Again you don't pay attention. It wasn't so much that people couldn't read that the printing press had an affect. It was because they now had the Bible in their own language, and could read it.

Yes, I know you rely on the Roman Church which relies on tradition and the Pope. Go ahead, tell me you don't rely on tradition and the Pope.

The Bible does teach we are saved by grace alone. You haven't proved that is a lie. Oh yes, I do see him, satan, in his working to take away from the truth of the Scriptures. I see him coiled up next to priests and preachers preaching an apostate social christianity. I see him coiled up next to people on the internet teaching an apostate works salvation. I see him coiled up to preachers and priests of an all inclusive apostate salvation of all mankind. Such goodness he speaks, with his venom.

No you don't. You don't wish me well, so don't pretend.

Stranger

 

[shnarkle]

The early church kept the Sabbath?

The Didache: But every Lord's day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. [A.D. 70]

Pseudo-Barnabas: "We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (Epistle of Barnabas 15:6-8 (A.D. 80)

Ignatius: "[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's day..." Letter to the Magnesians 8 (A.D. 107).

Tertullian: Let him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation...(AD 203)

What I just quoted spans the first 150 years of Christianity. So how can you say that "The early church kept the Sabbath"? The historical facts prove you wrong.

The bible proves otherwise, but if you don't believe in the testimony of the bible, then there's nothing left to discuss. The text is pretty clear that they not only learned the Mosaic law, but learned it in the synagogues on the Sabbath. Ignoring that doesn't negate this is what the text is stating.

 

[bbyrd009]

The early church kept the Sabbath?

The Didache: But every Lord's day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. [A.D. 70]

Pseudo-Barnabas: "We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (Epistle of Barnabas 15:6-8 (A.D. 80)

Ignatius: "[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's day..." Letter to the Magnesians 8 (A.D. 107).

Tertullian: Let him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation...(AD 203)

What I just quoted spans the first 150 years of Christianity. So how can you say that "The early church kept the Sabbath"? The historical facts prove you wrong.

you say this spans the first 150 years of "Christianity," but there is no reason to not expect that these do not outline the progression of Paul's "wolves," having immediately come in after he left, Tom. Of course "wolves" is not language anyone likes to apply to themselves, but how hard is it to see that after all, you aren't quoting Scripture? The Tertullian snippet even concedes that there were those who contended that the 5th Commandment should still be fulfilled, so that is how one can say that, with all due respect.

You make 4 quotes and a statement up there, all of which contradict Scripture.

 

[tom55]

Indeed, through the Scripture I will contest with others what is right or wrong. Scripture being the 66 books of the Bible. Hopefully, we can come to an agreement. If we cannot, then I don't sacrifice what I believe Scripture to teach just for the sake of some pius unity. Pseudo unity.

Again, please pay attention. I said the individual Christian goes amiss with the wrong teaching of the Church with central authority. Though this individual has been born again, despite the teaching of Rome, because he remains in the Roman Church, he goes amiss with them. The central authority of the Roman Church takes all its churches down with it. Take Daniel for example. Was he a man of God? Most definitely. Was he a prophet? Of course. But was he carried away into judgemental captivity by God through the Babylonians? And treated wrongfully by them? Yes. Why? Because he was part of the people of God who became apostate.

Again you don't pay attention. It wasn't so much that people couldn't read that the printing press had an affect. It was because they now had the Bible in their own language, and could read it.

Yes, I know you rely on the Roman Church which relies on tradition and the Pope. Go ahead, tell me you don't rely on tradition and the Pope.


No you don't. You don't wish me well, so don't pretend.

Stranger

I got it now......if someone agrees with YOU about scripture then they are right....If they disagree with YOU they are wrong!! Makes sense to me!! YOU are the pillar and foundation of truth that is mentioned in scripture. I thought The Church was. <_<

You are much more clear now. If one belongs to a church with central authority then they go amiss.
If one does not belong to a church with a central authority then they don't go amiss.
My question is: How does your theory explain away the thousands of churches with no central authority that all teach different truths? Do any of them go amiss??

Your printing press theory lacks historical facts.

I do wish you well......you are calling me a liar :wub:

I forgive you!!

 

[tom55]

The bible proves otherwise, but if you don't believe in the testimony of the bible, then there's nothing left to discuss. The text is pretty clear that they not only learned the Mosaic law, but learned it in the synagogues on the Sabbath. Ignoring that doesn't negate this is what the text is stating.

NT Scripture CLEARLY says they celebrated on The Lords Day on Sunday...not on the Sabbath (Saturday)

The first Christians....as quoted in my post above.......celebrated on Sunday.....not the Sabbath.

Scripture and the historical writings of the Christians that were alive when the NT was written are IDENTICAL!! Sunday was preached and practiced as The Lords Day. So who should I believe? You or them??

Can you show me thru historical writings where Christianity started practicing Saturday Sabbath?

 

[tom55]

you say this spans the first 150 years of "Christianity," but there is no reason to not expect that these do not outline the progression of Paul's "wolves," having immediately come in after he left, Tom. Of course "wolves" is not language anyone likes to apply to themselves, but how hard is it to see that after all, you aren't quoting Scripture? The Tertullian snippet even concedes that there were those who contended that the 5th Commandment should still be fulfilled, so that is how one can say that, with all due respect.

You make 4 quotes and a statement up there, all of which contradict Scripture.

You need me to quote scripture for you to back up Sunday worship? Let me help you do your own research on something that is already a well known fact to Christians: google or bing.....There, I just helped you!!

Maybe the wolves practiced Saturday worship while the real Christians practiced Sunday worship?

I provided historical writings that back up scripture and what I believe.

Can you provide historical writings to back up your theory??

 

[Stranger]

I got it now......if someone agrees with YOU about scripture then they are right....If they disagree with YOU they are wrong!! Makes sense to me!! YOU are the pillar and foundation of truth that is mentioned in scripture. I thought The Church was. <_<

You are much more clear now. If one belongs to a church with central authority then they go amiss.
If one does not belong to a church with a central authority then they don't go amiss.
My question is: How does your theory explain away the thousands of churches with no central authority that all teach different truths? Do any of them go amiss??

Your printing press theory lacks historical facts.

I do wish you well......you are calling me a liar :wub:

I forgive you!!

You exaggerate. There are not 'thousands of different truths'. And there are things which believers can have different opinions on in the Scripture which are interesting but do not affect ones salvation or walk with God. Those things which cause a church to drift into apostasy are centered around what they believe concerning Jesus Christ and the Bible as the Word of God.

I'm not asking for forgiveness.

Stranger