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Prove Practise of Worship of the Holy Spirit Is Biblical

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by JesusIsFaithful, Mar 1, 2015.

  1. JesusIsFaithful

    JesusIsFaithful Well-Known Member

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    Funny how you are making like the RCC in ignoring scripture that speaks against your belief. Care to address the scripture?

    And so how do you know you are not doing what you are assessing me as doing to defend the notion that not every believer has the Holy Spirit and that saved believers has to seek a baptism with the Holy Spirit that comes with evidence of tongues? That is dogma speak to me.

    You claim Ephesians 4:4-6 and yet fail to see it as tying in with the one hope of our calling. To separate that from the hearing of the gospel is to say that the hearing of the gospel is not the one hope of our calling.

    Do feel free to explain how He refreshes us. Are you saying that believers need a continual filling of the Spirit to keep on receiving Him which opposes Matthew 9:17 or are you talking about something else altogether? If not something else, then explain how Matthew 9:17 does not go against your belief because your belief would make you out to be a leaky vessel, and unsecured and thus not sealed.

    I dare you to ask members in your church if they believe the same way that you do because I have come across believers that are of your denomenation that believe that the Holy Spirit was filling the saved disciples again and again and again in the Book of Acts.

    Maybe then, the Lord will help you to see my concern from where I am coming from that you cannot read personal experiences into the Book of Acts when the letters to the church plainly teaches what we need to know so we can test the spirits & not fall for them.
     
  2. StanJ

    StanJ Lifelong student of God's Word.

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    What scripture? You didn't provide any.

    The scriptures show that not every believer had the Holy Spirit until Paul, John or Peter laid hands on them to be baptized by the Holy Spirit. Can't help it if you won't acknowledge that as such.

    It also is typical of those who are caught up in a false doctrine to use this same tactic on those they can't convince of their corrupted view of scripture.
    I have no idea what this means. Paul speaks of a few things in Eph 4:4-6, and I'll itemize them for you.
    1. One Body
    2. One Spirit
    3. One Hope
    4. One Lord
    5. One Faith
    6. One Baptism
    7. One God
    Now in this context, what are you trying to say?

    It's very hard to explain to someone who doesn't believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. You see the scripture and yet you refuse to accept them, so why would I bother. I'll give you the scripture and pray God will increase your understanding.
    The fact that you ask how Matt 9:17 does NOT go against my beliefs only shows you don't know what it is saying. I can assure you Jesus was not talking to Gentiles, He was talking to John's disciples about the Pharisees and how they did the same old things under the OC when in fact Jesus came to bring in the NC and it's NEW ways. We are not meant to be filled once and keep it all to ourselves, we are meant to be continually filled by the Holy Spirit as we use Him in our daily lives. Apparently you think the new wine was never meant to be consumed and replaced with more new wine?
    LOL...do you think we are in grade school here? You DARE me? I fellowship with like minded believers and reserve my debating for forums like this where false teaching abounds.

    We SHOULD test the spirits, all of them, but to not actually have had the baptism of the Holy Spirit, means YOU can't test any spirit, because you don't have the proper tools. You need the Holy Spirit to test the spirits.
     
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  3. JesusIsFaithful

    JesusIsFaithful Well-Known Member

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    Post #19 & #17 & #15

    Did you now the way Luke had written the account that they had only believed in the "things" Philip was preaching about instead of writing plainly that they had believed in Jesus Christ? And did you note that they did not speak in tongues when they did finally received the promise of the Spirit once their sights were lifted higher, including Simon's as to Whom was actually doing this?


    Are you sure you are not the one wanting that reference to validate your false teaching that not every believer has the Holy Spirit just to promote them to seek a baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues?

    How is it that you can stop someone taking what you teach and say... "if you do not speak in tongues, you do not have the Holy Spirit and therefore you are not saved"? when they can point out that one is not born again as in not born of the Spirit unless they have the Holy Spirit to say that they are saved?

    It is you that is on that slippery slope, brother.

    Paul is saying that everything in that list ties in with our salvation. Separate that, then you are dividing that hope and giving another calling for believers to heed and chase after.
    Romans 12:11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer; 13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
    In conext, there is no mention about the baptism with Holy Spirit with evidence of tongues for believers to seek after here, nor a continual filling of the Spirit.

    2 Corinthians 4:15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God. 16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
    If any one wants to apply this reference to the secret of renewing the inward man day by day, they would teach receiving light affliction where our outward man may perish to renew the inward man day by day, and I know that is not what it is saying for you to use that reference in that way about the Holy Spirit.

    Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    Verse 23 is not referring to the Holy Spirit. This was written in oppistion of this below.

    Ephesians 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

    _________
    Colossians 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; 10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: 11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

    Your use of verse 10 is ignoring the reality & promise of verse 11. That means every believer has the Holy Spirit when they were saved. To infer that a believer needs to fill temselves up with the Spirit is denying the promise that He will never forsake us. We are always Spirit-filled as promised otherwise that makes God unable to keep His promise.It is also important to note how this renewing is being done; which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him.

    Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

    That reference is about our salvation; when we were saved and how. It is not a repeatable event.

    John 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

    That reference is about when the disciples & future believers shall receive the promise of the Comforter when Jesus Christ was no longer present with us but had ascended to the Father which He said He was going to do at the beginning of 14th chapter in preparing a place for them.

    Acts 13:51 But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium. 52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.

    That reference was about after they were persecuted and had left the city dusting off their feet against them and the reason they were filled with joy is because Jesus is still Lord as they were still filled with the Holy Ghost. No one can understand how any one can be joyful in the face of persecution or how the gospel is not being well received; but it did not deter these disciples for they were filled with the Holy Ghost which is why they were filled with joy as Jesus is still Lord in spite of the events.

    So in spite of the scriptural references, you have yet to apply them in the way you want them to be used for validating for saved believers to be seeking a baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues, let alone, if this is also what you are preaching which is to seek the Holy Spirit to be filled by Him for a continual renewing supernatural experience of the inward man. All you are preaching is for believers to move away from their resting place in Jesus Christ as if He was not finished with them when He had saved them as if they lacked the promise of the permanently indwelling Holy Spirit. I would call that labouring in unbelief and voiding faith in Jesus Christ in departing from Him.

    Hebrews 4:1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world....9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
     
  4. StanJ

    StanJ Lifelong student of God's Word.

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    From your last post....let's try to stay in context.
    Again, typical of people of your ilk, as the verse even in the KJV states; But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

    I note that Simon SAW, so what did he see? He saw that they spoke in tongues as is indicated in every other account of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Of course when you look to support your bias instead of reading the scriptures exegetically, you will make these type of erroneous assumptions.

    You read everything with your bias and as I predicted do not allow God to make His word real to you.
    Again, this type of counter accusation doesn't really fly in a forum of this nature. It's not about satisfying yourself, but about making a refutation, which you obviously cannot do so you resort to these type of childish ploys.

    The NT clearly teaches that Jesus instructs His disciples, to wait for the Holy Spirit's baptism. They did and we are to as well based on what Peter, Paul and John taught. If no evidence was required then none would have been given. The FACT that evidence was given, shows that it is God's will that there be evidence. Denying the power of the Holy Spirit even when clearly shown is equivalent to what the Pharisees did. Jesus only ever condemned the Pharisees and teachers of the law for their inflexibility. You demonstrate the same inflexibility.

    I never said what you accuse me of here and not surprisingly your prevarication is not unexpected. The issue is being saved and DENYING the power of God through the Holy Spirit. Paul warns us about such people in 2 Tim 3:5
    Really? Where, EXACTLY is he saying this? Show us the WORDS.
    As I suspected, you did NOT ask God for understanding and simply regurgitate your dogmatic POV without any understanding whatsoever. In your defense the only verse you dealt with correctly, was the first, and that only because I mistyped it. I should have typed Rom 12:2, not 12:12

    Regardless, the issue was the renewing of the Holy Spirit, not the speaking in tongues. You get lost in all your responses and go back to your denial of tongues.
    I'd say stay focused, but people who equivocate all the time can't really do so.
     
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  5. JimParker

    JimParker Active Member

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    << So unless any one can show me any scripture endorsing that as a practise for the church to do; here is a the will of the Father in how we are to come to & worship Him. >>

    You used the term "triune God." That refers to the belief that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three hypostases (in English we use the word "persons" but it is misleading) of God.

    So if you worship the Father then you are also worshiping the Son and the Holy Spirit.

    Or if you worship the Son ot the Holy Spirit then you are also worshiping the Father.

    IF you worship any of them you worship the one true God.

    Whatsa problem??? :)
     
  6. StanJ

    StanJ Lifelong student of God's Word.

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    I wouldn't expect an answer Jim. The OP hasn't been active since my last post on this thread. Pretty sure he has moved on with his fallacious dogma.
     
  7. newbirth

    newbirth New Member

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    1 Corinthians 8:6
    But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.



    Ephesians 4:5-6King James Version (KJV)
    5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
    6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.



    There is no scripture saying Triune God...the scripture says continue in the Father and the Son



    1 John 2:22-24King James Version (KJV)
    22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
    23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
    24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
     
  8. newbirth

    newbirth New Member

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    by your own admission ....if the HS is God's Spirit... then the HS is God and therefore not a third person...which means there is no trinity...
     
  9. JimParker

    JimParker Active Member

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    So, do you ascribe to the heresy that the Holy Spirit is not God?
     
  10. newbirth

    newbirth New Member

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    The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God...,,,Do you not believe the scripture???


    Ephesians 4:5-6King James Version (KJV)
    5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
    6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
     
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  11. JimParker

    JimParker Active Member

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    << The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God >>

    That just begs the question. Is the Spirit of God God or something other than God?

    Jesus said:

    John 14:16-17 (KJV) "... I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

    Notice that Jesus used a personal pronoun (he, and him) to refer to the Spirit. Personal pronouns are used to refer to PERSONS.
    Jesus did not use the word "it," which would be used to refer to a "thing."

    Jesus said further:

    John 14:26 (KJV) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    Again, Jesus uses words which indicate that the Holy Spirit is a person, not a thing.

    Jesus also said that the Father would send the Holy Spirit. If the Father sends the Holy Spirit then the Holy Spirit cannot be the same person as the Father.

    And a person teaches. Things don't.

    Paul said "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." (Eph 4:30 KJV)

    It is impossible to grieve a "thing." You cannot "grieve" a nail or a pomegranate. One can only grieve "persons."

    So, either the Holy Spirit is a divine person, and a divine person can be nothing other than the one God, or John didn't know what he was talking about.

    Pick one.

    Just out of curiosity, to what church do you belong that teaches the Holy Ghost is not a person of the Trinity?
     
  12. newbirth

    newbirth New Member

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    but you answered the question that you beg.....The Spirit of God is God... and NOT something other than God...and thereore NOT another person or entity



    John 4:24
    God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


    John 14:23
    Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

    Jesus said I and my Father are one....Jesus and the Father makes their abode with us....One Spirit....
     
  13. newbirth

    newbirth New Member

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    The scripture does not teach.....the Holy Ghost is a person of a Trinity....scripture teaches the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God...

    Paul said "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." (Eph 4:30 KJV)
     
  14. StanJ

    StanJ Lifelong student of God's Word.

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    Overall the entire scripture teaches about the triune nature of God and that the Holy Spirit is part of that. Either He is and He is God, who we can and do worship, or He isn't, and we can't worship Him.
     
  15. newbirth

    newbirth New Member

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    you have not been reading scripture ...have you?...scripture sats nothing about a triune nature....it says God is ONE......what are the three natures you are talking about??? show scripture saying there are three natures...
     
  16. JimParker

    JimParker Active Member

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    Jesus said that the Father will send the Holy Spirit. That means that the Father and the Holy Spirit are two different "persons." (That English word is actually inadequate) The sender cannot also be the one sent.
     
  17. JimParker

    JimParker Active Member

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    I just gave you the scriptures that tell you that the Holy Spirit IS a person. Here they are again:

    John 14:16-17 (KJV) "... I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

    Notice that Jesus used a personal pronoun (he, and him) to refer to the Spirit. Personal pronouns are used to refer to PERSONS.
    Jesus did not use the word "it," which would be used to refer to a "thing."

    Jesus said further:

    John 14:26 (KJV) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    Here again, John uses personal pronouns; "whom" and "he." If he did not mean to indicate that the Holy Spirit is a parson, John would have used the pronoun "it."


    You did not answer my question. What Church do you attend? (Denominational name, not "Christian")
     
  18. newbirth

    newbirth New Member

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    OK here is the person.....: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." who was HE that the disciples Knew???....who was he that dwelleth with the disciples???...and who was the HE that shall be in us????
    if you are looking for pronouns ...that is all you will see...and what does it matter which church I attend...if you are looking for church that is what you will see....you are asking the wrong questions...seek first the kingdom....did you not see Jesus referring to himself in that scripture???
     
  19. JimParker

    JimParker Active Member

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    HE is the Spirit of Truth and "another comforter" (previous verse). I.e.: The Holy Spirit.

    I said I was curious about what church you attend. Why are you so reluctant to name it?
     
  20. newbirth

    newbirth New Member

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    you are proving you do not understand scripture...well duh Jesus is the Truth...The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth.......Jesus and the Father are one ...the ....same Spirit...
    Romans 8:9
    But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
     
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