Prove Practise of Worship of the Holy Spirit Is Biblical

[newbirth]

and yet God's Word uses 3 distinct words for 3 distinct personas, and they are all ONE God.

and yet you have no scripture saying that.....scripture says there is one God and God is one....

 

[newbirth]

Do you believe in the Trinitarian God or not?

where does the scripture command anyone to believe in the trinitarian God???

 

[OzSpen]

you say God stands alone....scripture says God is One.. I post the scripture ...you say I start with a false premise...so do you think alone means???

Would you please use biblical references to show us (me) to what you are referring?

 

[OzSpen]

where does the scripture command anyone to believe in the trinitarian God???

You are not answering my question. I asked: Do you believe in the Trinitarian God or not?

 

[newbirth]

Would you please use biblical references to show us (me) to what you are referring?

Ephesians 4:6
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Galatians 3:20
Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

 

[newbirth]

You are not answering my question. I asked: Do you believe in the Trinitarian God or not?

I do not believe in the trinitarian god...it is a false doctrine...can you now answer my question??...where does the scripture command anyone to believe in the trinitarian god???

 

[StanJ]

and yet you have no scripture saying that.....scripture says there is one God and God is one....

I gave you scripture...did you miss it or ignore it?

 

[StanJ]

I do not believe in the trinitarian god...it is a false doctrine...can you now answer my question??...where does the scripture command anyone to believe in the trinitarian god???

Where does the scripture teach the three Omni's of God? Why do you ignore what Jesus said?
[SIZE=10pt]Jesus said:[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] I and the Father are one.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Jesus said:[/SIZE] If you've seen me you've seen the Father.
Jesus said: If you knew me, you would know my Father also.
Jesus said: You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.
Jesus said: If you do not believe that I am He, you will indeed die in your sins.
Jesus said: You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am.
Jesus said: Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

 

[OzSpen]

I do not believe in the trinitarian god...it is a false doctrine...can you now answer my question??...where does the scripture command anyone to believe in the trinitarian god???

newbirth,

Where does the Scripture command us to believe in the trinitarian God?

Let's answer the first question. Where does Scripture command us to believe in God? There are many Scriptures we could choose. Let's deal with just a couple:

a. 'And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.' (Heb 11:6 ESV). 'And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a whole heart and with a willing mind, for the Lord searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off for ever' (1 Chron 28:9 ESV). We could go to other verses as well to affirm the need to believe in God.

b. The second question is: What is the nature of this God? Is he Trinitarian or non-trinitarian? Let's investigate further.

In your response, this is what happens when you only give the biblical verses that support your anti-trinitarian view of god, which is a heretical view of God (as was declared at the Council of Nicea, AD 325. See the Nicene Creed below). Why? Because you have chosen to exclude the verses that demonstrate that God consists of three persons who are deity.

The definition of the Trinity which has biblical support is: 'God eternally exists as three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and each person is fully God, and there is one God' (Grudem 1999:104).

What's the evidence that God, the Father, is fully God? It is progressively revealed throughout Scripture. As early as Genesis 1:26 (ESV), God is revealed as a plurality: 'Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness'. Here we have the plural pronouns 'us' and 'our' used. Are they plurals of majesty or do they indicate that there is plurality in the Godhead? 'In Old Testament Hebrew there are no other examples of a monarch using plural verbs or plural pronouns of himself in such a "plural of majesty," so this suggestion has no evidence to support it' (Grudem 1999:104). The God who is plurality made a human being (man) in their image.
The more complete revelation is in the NT where we find that

• God, the Father, is regarded as God. 'For on him God the Father has set his seal' (Jn 6:27 ESV); 'God our Father' (Rm 1:7 ESV); 'God the Father' and 'God the Father' (Gal 1:1, 3 ESV).

• God, the Son, is regarded as God. He has the attributes of deity: (1) Eternity (Jn 1:15; 8:58; 17:5, 24); (2) Omniscient (Jn 4:24; 16:30; 21:17); (3) Omnipresent (Mt 18:20; 28:20; Jn 3:13); (4) Omnipotent. 'I am the Almighty' (Rev 1:8); Heb 1:3; Mt 28:18; (5) Immutable (Heb 1:12; 13:8); (6) He does the actions of deity: creator (Jn 1:3; Heb 1:10; Col 1:16); holds things together (Col 1:17; Heb 1:3); forgives sin (Mt 9:2, 6); raises the dead (Jn 6:39-40, 54; 11:25; 20:25, 28); he will be the Judge (Jn 5:22) of believers (2 Cor 5:10), of Antichrist and his followers (Rev 19:15), the nations (Ac 17:31), Satan (Gen 3:15) and the living and the dead (Ac 10:42).

• God, the Holy Spirit, is regarded as God. The Holy Spirit is a person. Take John 16:13 as an example. the neuter substantive pneuma [Spirit] is referred to by the masculine pronoun ekeinos [he], thus recognising the Holy Spirit not as a neuter 'it' but as a person, 'he'. He is the Comforter/Helper (Jn 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7). No 'it' can do this. The Holy Spirit has the attributes of Deity. He is eternal (Heb 9:14), omniscient (1 Cor 2:10-11; Jn 14:26; 16:12-13), omnipotent (Lk 1:35), omnipresent (Ps 139:7-10). And have a guess what? He does the works of deity in creation (Ps 104:30), regeneration (Jn 3:5), giving us Scripture (2 Pt 1:21; and raising the dead (Rm 8:11).

In preparing these Scriptures I have been assisted by Henry Thiessen (1949:134-146). Thiessen notes that 'the doctrine of the tripersonality of God is not in conflict with the doctrine of the unity of God. There are three persons in the one essence.... These distinctions are eternal. This is evident from the passages which imply Christ's existence with the Father from eternity (John 1:1, 2; Phil. 2:6; John 17:5, 24) and from those which assert or imply the eternity of the Holy Spirit (Gen. 1:2; Heb. 9:14)' (Thiessen 1949:145).

Although the words Trinity, Triunity or tripersonality do not appear in Scripture, the teachings do, as I've attempted to show.

Oz

Works consulted
Grudem, W 1999. Bible doctrine: Essential teachings of the Christian faith. J Purswell (ed). Leister, England: Inter-Varsity Press (published by arrangement with Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan).

Thiessen, H C 1949. Introductory lectures in systematic theology. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

Nicene Creed
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

 

[OzSpen]

Ephesians 4:6
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Galatians 3:20
Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

As I've demonstrated in #69, the unity of God (one God) is not in conflict with the Triunity of God (one God in three persons). It is hard for some of us to get our heads around that and it remains in the 'mystery' of God that is revealed in Scripture.

I affirm with you the unity of God (one God, as opposed to polytheism) but in contradistinction from your heterodox view, I affirm the Trinity of God that is revealed in Scripture - progressively in the OT but more fully in the NT.

Oz

 

[newbirth]

Where does the scripture teach the three Omni's of God? Why do you ignore what Jesus said?
[SIZE=10pt]Jesus said:[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] I and the Father are one.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Jesus said:[/SIZE] If you've seen me you've seen the Father.
Jesus said: If you knew me, you would know my Father also.
Jesus said: You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.
Jesus said: If you do not believe that I am He, you will indeed die in your sins.
Jesus said: You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am.
Jesus said: Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

there is no trinity in there...

 

[newbirth]

newbirth,

Where does the Scripture command us to believe in the trinitarian God?

Let's answer the first question. Where does Scripture command us to believe in God? There are many Scriptures we could choose. Let's deal with just a couple:

a. 'And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.' (Heb 11:6 ESV). 'And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a whole heart and with a willing mind, for the Lord searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off for ever' (1 Chron 28:9 ESV). We could go to other verses as well to affirm the need to believe in God.

b. The second question is: What is the nature of this God? Is he Trinitarian or non-trinitarian? Let's investigate further.

In your response, this is what happens when you only give the biblical verses that support your anti-trinitarian view of god, which is a heretical view of God (as was declared at the Council of Nicea, AD 325. See the Nicene Creed below). Why? Because you have chosen to exclude the verses that demonstrate that God consists of three persons who are deity.

The definition of the Trinity which has biblical support is: 'God eternally exists as three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and each person is fully God, and there is one God' (Grudem 1999:104).

What's the evidence that God, the Father, is fully God? It is progressively revealed throughout Scripture. As early as Genesis 1:26 (ESV), God is revealed as a plurality: 'Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness'. Here we have the plural pronouns 'us' and 'our' used. Are they plurals of majesty or do they indicate that there is plurality in the Godhead? 'In Old Testament Hebrew there are no other examples of a monarch using plural verbs or plural pronouns of himself in such a "plural of majesty," so this suggestion has no evidence to support it' (Grudem 1999:104). The God who is plurality made a human being (man) in their image.
The more complete revelation is in the NT where we find that

• God, the Father, is regarded as God. 'For on him God the Father has set his seal' (Jn 6:27 ESV); 'God our Father' (Rm 1:7 ESV); 'God the Father' and 'God the Father' (Gal 1:1, 3 ESV).

• God, the Son, is regarded as God. He has the attributes of deity: (1) Eternity (Jn 1:15; 8:58; 17:5, 24); (2) Omniscient (Jn 4:24; 16:30; 21:17); (3) Omnipresent (Mt 18:20; 28:20; Jn 3:13); (4) Omnipotent. 'I am the Almighty' (Rev 1:8); Heb 1:3; Mt 28:18; (5) Immutable (Heb 1:12; 13:8); (6) He does the actions of deity: creator (Jn 1:3; Heb 1:10; Col 1:16); holds things together (Col 1:17; Heb 1:3); forgives sin (Mt 9:2, 6); raises the dead (Jn 6:39-40, 54; 11:25; 20:25, 28); he will be the Judge (Jn 5:22) of believers (2 Cor 5:10), of Antichrist and his followers (Rev 19:15), the nations (Ac 17:31), Satan (Gen 3:15) and the living and the dead (Ac 10:42).

• God, the Holy Spirit, is regarded as God. The Holy Spirit is a person. Take John 16:13 as an example. the neuter substantive pneuma [Spirit] is referred to by the masculine pronoun ekeinos [he], thus recognising the Holy Spirit not as a neuter 'it' but as a person, 'he'. He is the Comforter/Helper (Jn 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7). No 'it' can do this. The Holy Spirit has the attributes of Deity. He is eternal (Heb 9:14), omniscient (1 Cor 2:10-11; Jn 14:26; 16:12-13), omnipotent (Lk 1:35), omnipresent (Ps 139:7-10). And have a guess what? He does the works of deity in creation (Ps 104:30), regeneration (Jn 3:5), giving us Scripture (2 Pt 1:21; and raising the dead (Rm 8:11).

In preparing these Scriptures I have been assisted by Henry Thiessen (1949:134-146). Thiessen notes that 'the doctrine of the tripersonality of God is not in conflict with the doctrine of the unity of God. There are three persons in the one essence.... These distinctions are eternal. This is evident from the passages which imply Christ's existence with the Father from eternity (John 1:1, 2; Phil. 2:6; John 17:5, 24) and from those which assert or imply the eternity of the Holy Spirit (Gen. 1:2; Heb. 9:14)' (Thiessen 1949:145).

Although the words Trinity, Triunity or tripersonality do not appear in Scripture, the teachings do, as I've attempted to show.

Oz

Works consulted
Grudem, W 1999. Bible doctrine: Essential teachings of the Christian faith. J Purswell (ed). Leister, England: Inter-Varsity Press (published by arrangement with Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan).

Thiessen, H C 1949. Introductory lectures in systematic theology. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

Nicene Creed
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

sorry I have not read your post because you misrepresent me in the beginning...I asked ...where does the scripture command anyone to believe in the trinitarian god??? so you are not answering what I asked....plain and simple...you started wrong...

 

[StanJ]

there is no trinity in there...

Well as you deny and don't know what the Trinity is, it's not surprising you don't recognize or admit to it.

 

[newbirth]

As I've demonstrated in #69, the unity of God (one God) is not in conflict with the Triunity of God (one God in three persons). It is hard for some of us to get our heads around that and it remains in the 'mystery' of God that is revealed in Scripture.

I affirm with you the unity of God (one God, as opposed to polytheism) but in contradistinction from your heterodox view, I affirm the Trinity of God that is revealed in Scripture - progressively in the OT but more fully in the NT.

Oz

you have wasted your demonstration....since you started by altering the question I asked...now you are here with "revealed in scripture" scripture is written for us to believe...and obey ...not to reveal anything


John 20:30-31King James Version (KJV)
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

2 Thessalonians 3:14
And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.


.God reveals to us through his Spirit...
1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

 

[newbirth]

Well as you deny and don't know what the Trinity is, it's not surprising you don't recognize or admit to it.

is it not your duty to show...???...if you are seeing something and cannot show it to someone ....what you are seeing is a mirage

 

[OzSpen]

sorry I have not read your post because you misrepresent me in the beginning...I asked ...where does the scripture command anyone to believe in the trinitarian god??? so you are not answering what I asked....plain and simple...you started wrong...

When you don't read my post, you demonstrate ignorance of having a reasonable conversation. I dealt with your Unitarian god by addressing two questions that are coherent with one another.

1. Are we commanded to believe in God? Yes!
2. What is the nature of God we are commanded to believe in? The Trinitarian God of Unity and Trinity.

I directly answered your question but what have you done? You have given me a flick pass by your use of a red herring logical fallacy. This fallacy is when you decide not to deal with the issue I raised but to take the conversation in another direction. What you have done is engaged in avoidance of the fact that I DID ANSWER YOUR QUESTION but you DID NOT EXTEND TO ME THE COURTESY OF READING MY POST.

You have essentially told me: Don't waste your time in spending time on a response to newbirth because he can't be bothered with answering the issues I raise.

Newbirth, there is a place on CB where you can discuss your heretical view of God. It's called the Unorthodox forum. That's where you should be promoting your Unitarianism and not here on an orthodox Christian thread.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

you have wasted your demonstration....since you started by altering the question I asked...

That's a false accusation. Please do not accuse me of being a liar by 'altering the question' you asked. I did nothing of the sort. I directly answered your question, but you don't like the Trinitarian answer I gave with direct references from Scripture.

Seems to me that you would be right at home with the JWs, Christadelphians or the United Pentecostal Church as your view of God is in support of their heterodoxy.

 

[StanJ]

is it not your duty to show...???...if you are seeing something and cannot show it to someone ....what you are seeing is a mirage

As soon as you do and stop simply denying what I show in scripture then I will do so in this regard....until then I will reply in the likewise.

 

[newbirth]

When you don't read my post, you demonstrate ignorance of having a reasonable conversation. I dealt with your Unitarian god by addressing two questions that are coherent with one another.

1. Are we commanded to believe in God? Yes!
2. What is the nature of God we are commanded to believe in? The Trinitarian God of Unity and Trinity.

I directly answered your question but what have you done? You have given me a flick pass by your use of a red herring logical fallacy. This fallacy is when you decide not to deal with the issue I raised but to take the conversation in another direction. What you have done is engaged in avoidance of the fact that I DID ANSWER YOUR QUESTION but you DID NOT EXTEND TO ME THE COURTESY OF READING MY POST.

You have essentially told me: Don't waste your time in spending time on a response to newbirth because he can't be bothered with answering the issues I raise.

Newbirth, there is a place on CB where you can discuss your heretical view of God. It's called the Unorthodox forum. That's where you should be promoting your Unitarianism and not here on an orthodox Christian thread.

Oz

go back and look at the question...you changed the question here

Where does the Scripture command us to believe in the trinitarian God?

Let's answer the first question. Where does Scripture command us to believe in God?

that is playing smart with foolishness...

 

[newbirth]

That's a false accusation. Please do not accuse me of being a liar by 'altering the question' you asked. I did nothing of the sort. I directly answered your question, but you don't like the Trinitarian answer I gave with direct references from Scripture.

Seems to me that you would be right at home with the JWs, Christadelphians or the United Pentecostal Church as your view of God is in support of their heterodoxy.

beyond a doubt it is a trinitarian response.....you removed the key word "trinitarian" from the question .....so you were not answering "my "question...you answered your version of the question...but that is not a problem...you guys do it all the time with scripture...now you are all over the place involving other people ...to shift focus away from what you did...