I think that has more to do with people's fallen natures, and fleshy corruption, than the genre of Paul's writing.
Much love!
Prying Thoughts
- Thread starter Netchaplain
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Much love!
Hi (have a Nephew Randy), and thanks for your reply and comments! Concerning freewill, I highly recommend it, but only when God "works in you to will and do of His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13), which is the only way believers truly desire Him. One who professes faith but does not continue to possess the works is absent of the One who "works" in the believer, because it's what keeps us from desiring our old self. I believe God's plan is for us to continue in the character of who we are and not to replace ourselves, but our nature (completed at the rapture).
Time will tell, for "sin will surly find you out" (Num 32:23), which will be all who have never been reborn, and are styled as hypocrites and apostates. They will inevitably cease from their profession and "depart" from their false appearance. Besides, nobody can do anything that can lead a believer away from the desire of God's will and pleasure (Mat 24:24).
Concerning predestination, it's my understanding that it exemplifies God's omniscience of foreknowing all who will ever choose to be reborn. Therefore He knows that those who choose "life" (Deu 30:19) are set (destined) for salvation and will be saved. I think this is similar to "the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" (Rom 9:22), in that God knows while He is "fitting" (making us or bringing us into this life) us whether we will be choosing to be fitted for "wrath" (instruments of unrighteousness) or for mercy (instruments of righteousness). I believer there are too many passages in Scripture supporting that God is not a "respecter of persons" to conceive that He determines this all important choice for each us us.
(Acts 10:34; Mat 22:16; Luk 20:21; Rom 2:11; Gal 2:6; Eph 6:9; Col 3:25; 1Pe 1:17).
Amen, and so sad, because it will consist of the majority of mankind, which is more obvious all the time (Mat 7:13, 14). We could say that all are doing God's will but not His desire. It's His will that unbelievers perish, but not His desire; and it's His will that believers live forever!
I have a different proposition. The subtlety of how everything fits together means there appears to be an overlap in concepts but actually it reflects subjective balances of weakness, growth, need, emotional strength, perception, encouragement and love. Language is a strange thing. It conveys factual meaning and emotional meaning which can turn a sentence with the same words to imply very different things. I was faced with this when my daughter held some extreme positions of defining individuals, while disowning my rights to have an opinion. I gave push back which blew up in my face. Turns out her views were defensive through insecurity and worry, rather than definitive and certain. By challenging them, I was interpreted as rejecting her and causing her to withdraw and feel threatened. So I apologised and understood the context, and the need to wait until a robust relationship could grow, and then the subject could be discussed without a feeling of being threatened.
So how are we before the Lord? How robust and able to face the truth about our motivations and strengths and weaknesses? If God pushed too hard we would fold, and He could very easily. But the Lord is very graceful and we need to grow emotionally in Him and love, in purity and truth, in our security of what makes us us, and then we will begin to see the complexity and strands that are something we will be healed of, and what is solid and worthy of respect. Jesus says we need to become like children. And as children we need to trust and love our Father and grow in His ways and understanding. God bless you
From the perspective of eternity, those who make it are already worshiping the Lord in heaven. And those who don't make it are already suffering in hell.
God created us accordingly; and also worked out every thing in our lives according to what He foreknew would be those redeemed and those not redeemed.
But there's enough wisdom literature that requires interpretation, and parables, allegory anthropomorphism, etc... to create very distinct factions and divisions. I don't believe that it is necessarily the literally intended passages, that have caused the birth of so many denominations.
So do I, but not as terse and secular as the Levitical Law, therefore, even Paul is extremely difficult to understand at times, and causes division. You should know that.
2 Peter 3:14-16
3:14. Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15. and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16. as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
While everything you have said makes sense, what is stated above is not really valid. Provided we begin with the assumption and presumption that there are absolutely no contradictions in the Bible.
At the same time, every doctrine and Bible truth must be established on what is found throughout Scripture (Genesis to Revelation only), with the understanding that Scripture is progressive revelation. Also, passages which may be difficult must be interpreted by those which are perfectly clear, since Peter said that there are some things which are hard to be understood.
Let's take an example. Abraham told his son Isaac that God would provide Himself a lamb for a whole burnt offering (Gen 22:8). But the creature caught in that thicket was a ram, not a lamb. So what was Abraham talking about? Was he not speaking prophetically about the Lamb of God (Christ) who would take away the sin of the world (John 1:29)? And was not Christ on the cross the fulfillment of all the whole burnt offerings, as well as the Passover Lamb? And did God not provide Himself a Lamb from BEFORE the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:18-20)? Abraham is called a prophet in the Bible (Gen 20:7), therefore we must take those words as prophetic.
As we can see, we needed to go from Genesis to 1 Peter in order to understand what Abraham told Isaac.
Excellent post.
But I would say that even though there are no contradictions in the word of the Lord, there are apparent contradictions which must be reconciled by intermediate scriptures.
True. Take the example of the narratives regarding the resurrection of Christ. Until and unless we are prepared to carefully harmonize all four Gospels, we will end up thinking that there were contradictions in those accounts.
Yes Marks you are tight, and the fallen nature of the people in the churches is what drive the lack of unity.
Hi, and thanks for the instructional and encouraging comments. Thankfully, God uses all the difficulties to teach us patience and an ever-increasing faith. It's always a matter of time until He brings everything back to encouragement and joy for every believer. Even if we yet have the understanding we need at the time!
I've been continuing to think about this . . .
Because of the apparent contflicts, I've looked much more closely at the respective passages. Perhaps if it wasn't so intricate, I wouldn't have felt the need to study in that much detail. But not willing to rest until I was satisfied, I spent several years looking at this, and in great detail.
Much love!
He prepares the clay before molding it and shaping it (Romans 9:23); and therefore I would say that our salvation is in a certain sense secured before we are born. When we hear the gospel, we cannot help but respond positively to it because of the way we were created.
However, based on the way the clay has been prepared, the clay makes certain choices while it is being molded: so that when the potter may want to make a certain thing out of a certain lump of clay, it may be marred in the potter's hand; so the potter will have to make it into a different vessel than was originally planned.
Hi and good to see your comments! Yes, and that's what I meant by "that can appear," which is visually obvious and unavoidable in the way it often reads. Truth that appears to be true is true. But error that appears to be truth is error.
There never will be any true Scriptural contradiction, and we are tested and taught through maintaining its study. It's been wisely stated that the whole of Scripture is supported by its parts, thus understanding its parts reveals the whole. I also think that certain translations are more accurate than others, but it's the Word of God within the translations that is perfect.
God bless!
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God has employed discretion throughout His entire Word. Not in every tenet or doctrine, but enough to create controversy. There are confusing and seemingly contradictory passages immediately in the first chapter of Genesis, and continues right up to the Book of Revelation.
I believe this to be by design.
Of course, marks, but that's never been my point. The OP addressed the invariable confusion that ensues between many Bible students, and he had posited certain reasons why he thinks that that is. I agree with his predicate, and was just offering my point of view as to why, in certain cases, I think that it is. But again, only in regard to where the inherent controversy lies. I think that in some areas, it exists by design. Not everywhere that there's a difficult passage, do I think that it's God being discreet or obscure. But, there are cases where He deliberately is.
We see through a glass darkly.
Matthew 11:25-25
11:25. At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.
Mark 4:10-12
4:10. As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, began asking Him about the parables. 11. And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12. so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN."
Proverbs 23:9-9
23:9. Do not speak in the hearing of a fool, For he will despise the wisdom of your words.
Proverbs 1:7-7
1:7. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; Fools despise wisdom and instruction.
