Prying Thoughts

[Netchaplain]

The desire to know the truth concerning the concept of whether or not one can lose a redemptive position in the Lord Jesus is clearly the most popular spiritual growth doctrine among the New Testament teachings (which of course is a separate issue concerning receiving salvation). It’s clear that Scripture contains language that can appear to support either concept, and I believe there are two certainties concerning this issue: that only one of these concepts is true; that until the translation of the Church there will always remain believers who will accept one or the other as truth.

It’s been wisely said that asking good questions is key to finding good answers! At present one of my most prying thoughts is why Scripture (primarily in the NT) has been written in a way that often presents significant difficulty in understanding spiritual growth truths due to numerous passages that seem to contradict and conflict with one another, even though we know there is perfect coalescence in thought and practical application within the plenary of “the Word of Truth.”

It’s my belief there are at least two possible reasons answering to this paradoxical situation; for the purpose of requiring Bible-studying believers to maintain an ever-increasing reliance on the Holy Spirit’s instructions for understanding (1Co 2:13); and to learn to exercise respect and kindness to one another amidst the ongoing frustrations that often arise when communicating beliefs with one another. For success here, what we believe to be the truth must be communicated “in love” (Eph 4:15).

Love to one another is the pinnacle goal of all Biblical doctrine, because practical love to God is only apprehended in practical love to others (1Jn 4:20); and God’s love is incomplete in us if we do not desire to love one another (4:12). It is common knowledge that loving God is obeying Him (Jhn 14:15; Jhn 14:21), therefore neighborly love is the primary work that maintains consistent obedience to Him; without which our walk and doctrinal conversation will be unsuccessful concerning spiritual growth.

 

[ChristisGod]

If Eternal Life is not everlasting then Gods word is not trustworthy. Man attempts to redefine that promise to mean temporal life or conditional life. Jesus says that He given them Eternal Life and no one can snatch them away from Him. That is the Eternal Life and security we have in Christ. His sheep know His voice and they follow Him. Salvation is of, by, through the Lord and not conditioned upon man. The new birth comes from God not mans will or human decent as per John 1:13 but by the will of God. Just like when we are born physically into this world we do not became unborn the same is true in the spiritual birth. Those who are truly born again will seek God, truth Him and bear fruit. Its impossible to be born again and not have any evidence of the new birth. The problem is from our human vantage point we cannot tell the wheat from the tares, the sheep from the goats. God will sort that out for us at the Judgment.

BTW- Great OP !

hope this helps !!!

 

[101G]

The desire to know the truth concerning the concept of whether or not one can lose a redemptive position in the Lord Jesus is clearly the most popular spiritual growth doctrine among the New Testament teachings (which of course is a separate issue concerning receiving salvation). It’s clear that Scripture contains language that can appear to support either concept, and I believe there are two certainties concerning this issue: that only one of these concepts is true; that until the translation of the Church there will always remain believers who will accept one or the other as truth.

It’s been wisely said that asking good questions is key to finding good answers! At present one of my most prying thoughts is why Scripture (primarily in the NT) has been written in a way that often presents significant difficulty in understanding spiritual growth truths due to numerous passages that seem to contradict and conflict with one another, even though we know there is perfect coalescence in thought and practical application within the plenary of “the Word of Truth.”

It’s my belief there are at least two possible reasons answering to this paradoxical situation; for the purpose of requiring Bible-studying believers to maintain an ever-increasing reliance on the Holy Spirit’s instructions for understanding (1Co 2:13); and to learn to exercise respect and kindness to one another amidst the ongoing frustrations that often arise when communicating beliefs with one another. For success here, what we believe to be the truth must be communicated “in love” (Eph 4:15).

Love to one another is the pinnacle goal of all Biblical doctrine, because practical love to God is only apprehended in practical love to others (1Jn 4:20); and God’s love is incomplete in us if we do not desire to love one another (4:12). It is common knowledge that loving God is obeying Him (Jhn 14:15; Jhn 14:21), therefore neighborly love is the primary work that maintains consistent obedience to Him; without which our walk and doctrinal conversation will be unsuccessful concerning spiritual growth.

Addressing the OP only. first, Good topic and thanks for it.

but understand this, you said, "The desire to know the truth concerning the concept of whether or not one can lose a redemptive position in the Lord Jesus is clearly the most popular spiritual growth doctrine among the New Testament teachings (which of course is a separate issue concerning receiving salvation".
the desire is as NEW BORN BABES "DESIRING" the MILK of God, 1 Peter 2:2 "As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:" this scripture your question which is two-fold.
A. as new born babes many think they have it all. no, this is why God wrote the bible this way so that no green horns comming off the street just cain't read God word and think they know it all... by READING IT. no, one must spend time with the Lord in his word. many skip preschool and think they have graduated, (because thay hear som man or woman speaking on God' Holy Word), and know nothing, (I myself made such mistake). it takes time to understand God. it takes revelation from him so that he can REVEAL HIMSEL TO US. one must walk with the Lord... not just out on an evening stroll. one must labor in his word night and day. 2 Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." the "study" here is not education, but time, for one cannot study God and say, "Oh I got ihim". no, you will decieve your ownself. study is not to learn anything, but by studying you put in time with God, the Holy Ghost revealed that to me many years ago.

and the second fold answer, when one is born again... NEW BORN, one do not lose their salvation. just as a woman birth a child, it's here, it cannot go back into the womb, for all those Nicodemus out there, "you cannot go back into the womb".

now this is where the problem lay. those who are on milk have got off the bottle, or the breast but yet, stumble at the stone, and is crushed. listen. Isaiah 28:9 "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts." BINGO, there you have it. WEANED, NOT WHEN YOU THINK YOU ARE OFF THE MILK.

Isaiah 28:10 "For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:" (as the Holy Ghost said, Comparing Spiritual with Spiritual, you crawl before you walk).

Isaiah 28:11 "For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people." (it takes time to understand God Language).
Isaiah 28:12 "To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear." (ONE might want to read that again).
Isaiah 28:13 "But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken." (that's the problem).

this what happen, "many went and was not SENT", by God. hence the (1Co 2:13) you stated. no Holy Ghost to teach them. for 2 Thessalonians 2:10 & 11 are true, for those who think that they are saved. which clearly answer you second part of your question, "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."
2 Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"

anytime a doctrine change like the one now that have many, and I mean Many, believing a lie is a sure tell tale mistake, which is a clear delusion. when one is so convince that what they believe is so true, and ignore, or reject the scripture that say other wise, then to embrace a doctrine as such is a delusion. as one poster put is, "no objectivity?".

and then we have some in the body who believes that there is no need at all .0 for the OT. so what are you left with?,
1 Thessalonians 5:16 "Rejoice evermore." (and I'm having a ball).
1 Thessalonians 5:17 "Pray without ceasing." (checkmark).
1 Thessalonians 5:18 "In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you."(checkmark)
1 Thessalonians 5:19 "Quench not the Spirit." (checkmark).
1 Thessalonians 5:20 "Despise not prophesyings." (Checkmark)
1 Thessalonians 5:21 "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." BINGO.

PICJAG.
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[Netchaplain]

If Eternal Life is not everlasting then Gods word is not trustworthy. Man attempts to redefine that promise to mean temporal life or conditional life. Jesus says that He given them Eternal Life and no one can snatch them away from Him. That is the Eternal Life and security we have in Christ. His sheep know His voice and they follow Him. Salvation is of, by, through the Lord and not conditioned upon man. The new birth comes from God not mans will or human decent as per John 1:13 but by the will of God. Just like when we are born physically into this world we do not became unborn the same is true in the spiritual birth. Those who are truly born again will seek God, truth Him and bear fruit. Its impossible to be born again and not have any evidence of the new birth. The problem is from our human vantage point we cannot tell the wheat from the tares, the sheep from the goats. God will sort that out for us at the Judgment.

BTW- Great OP !

hope this helps !!!

Hi and thanks for the compliment and instructional input! For whatever reason, God intended for the growth truths to require more than merely reading the words but rather to put more effort into studying them. Many will come short of the intentions in the growth truths if they continue to look too much to self for understanding. God keep us from old self!

 

[Netchaplain]

Addressing the OP only. first, Good topic and thanks for it.

but understand this, you said, "The desire to know the truth concerning the concept of whether or not one can lose a redemptive position in the Lord Jesus is clearly the most popular spiritual growth doctrine among the New Testament teachings (which of course is a separate issue concerning receiving salvation".
the desire is as NEW BORN BABES "DESIRING" the MILK of God, 1 Peter 2:2 "As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:" this scripture your question which is two-fold.
A. as new born babes many think they have it all. no, this is why God wrote the bible this way so that no green horns comming off the street just cain't read God word and think they know it all... by READING IT. no, one must spend time with the Lord in his word. many skip preschool and think they have graduated, (because thay hear som man or woman speaking on God' Holy Word), and know nothing, (I myself made such mistake). it takes time to understand God. it takes revelation from him so that he can REVEAL HIMSEL TO US. one must walk with the Lord... not just out on an evening stroll. one must labor in his word night and day. 2 Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." the "study" here is not education, but time, for one cannot study God and say, "Oh I got ihim". no, you will decieve your ownself. study is not to learn anything, but by studying you put in time with God, the Holy Ghost revealed that to me many years ago.

and the second fold answer, when one is born again... NEW BORN, one do not lose their salvation. just as a woman birth a child, it's here, it cannot go back into the womb, for all those Nicodemus out there, "you cannot go back into the womb".

now this is where the problem lay. those who are on milk have got off the bottle, or the breast but yet, stumble at the stone, and is crushed. listen. Isaiah 28:9 "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts." BINGO, there you have it. WEANED, NOT WHEN YOU THINK YOU ARE OFF THE MILK.

Isaiah 28:10 "For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:" (as the Holy Ghost said, Comparing Spiritual with Spiritual, you crawl before you walk).

Isaiah 28:11 "For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people." (it takes time to understand God Language).
Isaiah 28:12 "To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear." (ONE might want to read that again).
Isaiah 28:13 "But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken." (that's the problem).

this what happen, "many went and was not SENT", by God. hence the (1Co 2:13) you stated. no Holy Ghost to teach them. for 2 Thessalonians 2:10 & 11 are true, for those who think that they are saved. which clearly answer you second part of your question, "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."
2 Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"

anytime a doctrine change like the one now that have many, and I mean Many, believing a lie is a sure tell tale mistake, which is a clear delusion. when one is so convince that what they believe is so true, and ignore, or reject the scripture that say other wise, then to embrace a doctrine as such is a delusion. as one poster put is, "no objectivity?".

and then we have some in the body who believes that there is no need at all .0 for the OT. so what are you left with?,
1 Thessalonians 5:16 "Rejoice evermore." (and I'm having a ball).
1 Thessalonians 5:17 "Pray without ceasing." (checkmark).
1 Thessalonians 5:18 "In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you."(checkmark)
1 Thessalonians 5:19 "Quench not the Spirit." (checkmark).
1 Thessalonians 5:20 "Despise not prophesyings." (Checkmark)
1 Thessalonians 5:21 "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." BINGO.

PICJAG.
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

Hi and thanks for the sincere and instructional reply! God bless!!

 

[Randy Kluth]

The desire to know the truth concerning the concept of whether or not one can lose a redemptive position in the Lord Jesus is clearly the most popular spiritual growth doctrine among the New Testament teachings (which of course is a separate issue concerning receiving salvation). It’s clear that Scripture contains language that can appear to support either concept, and I believe there are two certainties concerning this issue: that only one of these concepts is true; that until the translation of the Church there will always remain believers who will accept one or the other as truth.

It’s been wisely said that asking good questions is key to finding good answers! At present one of my most prying thoughts is why Scripture (primarily in the NT) has been written in a way that often presents significant difficulty in understanding spiritual growth truths due to numerous passages that seem to contradict and conflict with one another, even though we know there is perfect coalescence in thought and practical application within the plenary of “the Word of Truth.”

It’s my belief there are at least two possible reasons answering to this paradoxical situation; for the purpose of requiring Bible-studying believers to maintain an ever-increasing reliance on the Holy Spirit’s instructions for understanding (1Co 2:13); and to learn to exercise respect and kindness to one another amidst the ongoing frustrations that often arise when communicating beliefs with one another. For success here, what we believe to be the truth must be communicated “in love” (Eph 4:15).

Love to one another is the pinnacle goal of all Biblical doctrine, because practical love to God is only apprehended in practical love to others (1Jn 4:20); and God’s love is incomplete in us if we do not desire to love one another (4:12). It is common knowledge that loving God is obeying Him (Jhn 14:15; Jhn 14:21), therefore neighborly love is the primary work that maintains consistent obedience to Him; without which our walk and doctrinal conversation will be unsuccessful concerning spiritual growth.

I'm not sure I fully understand--certainly I at least partly understand. I'm an advocate of Predesination, but neither can I deny Freewill. So there is the paradox. This ties together with spiritual development for me because discipleship is not just a matter of obeying the word of God--more, it is a matter of *loving God.*

The Scriptures actually say that to obey God's word is to love God. But we all know that many who obey God do not love God. So clearly, obeying God's word *can* be a form of loving God, or it can merely be an appearance of loving God.

Figuring out the difference between those who actually love God in their obedience and those who are doing it only for "appearance" is the difficult thing. I mean, I can discern the difference by the help of the Holy Spirit. But knowing why one chooses to love God and the other doesn't is the million dollar question.

I fall back on Predestination. And yet it isn't very satisfying. I do believe Freewill plays a role.

 

[marks]

At present one of my most prying thoughts is why Scripture (primarily in the NT) has been written in a way that often presents significant difficulty in understanding spiritual growth truths due to numerous passages that seem to contradict and conflict with one another, even though we know there is perfect coalescence in thought and practical application within the plenary of “the Word of Truth.”

I agree, we need the right question.

I know some say God wrote the way He did to ferret out the hypocrits! Or some other hidden purpose.

This is just my thought, but I think the Bible will only be properly understood when read a certain way. I also happen to think that unless we read it that certain way, we will not reach agreement about doctrines.

The more we read it the way God wants us to, the more we will be in agreement with each other.

Also, it occurs to me, the more we need to study, the more invested we become.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Another thought on loving God, that's not always a warm glowy feeling. Spiritual love is an act of the will.

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

I find in John 10:27-30 that no one can snatch us out of God's hand.

The Armenian then resorts to saying that you can walk away yourself.

But I would think that those who have been sealed by the Holy Spirit also have the fear of the LORD.

Jer 32:38, And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
Jer 32:39, And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
Jer 32:40, And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Psa 19:9, The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.

I find that certain verses are intended to produce the fear of the LORD in those who are beginning to go astray; and if they are ignored then the fear of the LORD does not exist in the person who is contemplating them; such verses are the verses that seem to say that we can lose our salvation.

I consider what it says in Jude:

Jde 1:20, But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Jde 1:21, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

It is the position of the movement to which I belong that we are eternally secure as long as we abide in Christ.

I consider that abiding is spoken of in 1 John 3:6; and that in 1 John 2:17 it is written that we can abide for ever; and that we will abide for ever if we "do the will of God".

But that it is for ever reveals to me a powerful doctrine; that as we abide, we can indeed abide for ever: and this terminology, for ever, means that we will never cease to abide after that we come to a certain point.

This is everlasting life; where life is not only quantified but has a quality to it; in that it is a holy life, filled with righteousness.

In John 11:25-27 it is told to us by the Lord that whoever lives and believes in Him shall never die. Now, many saints throughout history, who have been alive and believed in Him, have died physically; so this is talking about spiritual life and death.

However, in James 1:14-16, we find that sin, if it becomes fully-grown, will produce spiritual death. This is not a contradiction; but we are to gain insight through the contrast.

What it is saying is that if we are truly alive and believe in Him, we will be on our guard against sin so that it will never become fully-grown in our lives.

Thus the Armenian perspective and the Calvinist perspective are like two rods connected together by a string or rope (without the string or rope they are apart from each other and appear to contradict); and a new construct is formed by the connection; wherein both together form a theological construct upon which we can build greater things.

 

[MattMooradian]

The Armenian then resorts to saying that you can walk away yourself.

Hey! I haven't even chimed into this conversation. LOL
Who is the Armenian?

 

[ChristisGod]

Hey! I haven't even chimed into this conversation. LOL
Who is the Armenian?

I believe he means Arminians as in James Arminius.

and not this :

Ar·me·ni·an
/ärˈmēnyən/
Learn to pronounce

adjective

1. relating to Armenia, its language, or the Christian Church established there.
   

noun

1. 1.
   a native of Armenia, or a person of Armenian descent.
   
   
2. 2.
   the Indo-European language of Armenia, spoken by around 4 million people and written in a distinctive alphabet of thirty-eight letters.

 

[justbyfaith]

Lol....yes, I was referring to Arminus (and his followers), the man who gave his response to Calvinism as a doctrine that was diametrically opposed to it.

 

[DNB]

I know some say God wrote the way He did to ferret out the hypocrits!

Yes, predominantly so! There is a wisdom in speaking with profundity, parables and allegory. Those that lack discernment and are of a shallow nature, always misconstrue the conveyance of the thought. This distinctly separates the sheep from the goats. Any charlatan can follow a regiment in a feigned manner, or quote Scripture verbatim, but to expound and exposit on the meaning and intent of a pericope, very quickly creates a dichotomy of tenets, and adherents.

When asked why he spoke in parables, Jesus replied, to hide the secrets of God from the wise and the prudent (secular), and to reveal the mysteries of God to the babe and the suckling. The concept of the suffering Messiah itself, is a quintessential example of such an antitheses, that very quickly creates a faction amongst theists.

 

[DNB]

The desire to know the truth concerning the concept of whether or not one can lose a redemptive position in the Lord Jesus is clearly the most popular spiritual growth doctrine among the New Testament teachings (which of course is a separate issue concerning receiving salvation). It’s clear that Scripture contains language that can appear to support either concept, and I believe there are two certainties concerning this issue: that only one of these concepts is true; that until the translation of the Church there will always remain believers who will accept one or the other as truth.

It’s been wisely said that asking good questions is key to finding good answers! At present one of my most prying thoughts is why Scripture (primarily in the NT) has been written in a way that often presents significant difficulty in understanding spiritual growth truths due to numerous passages that seem to contradict and conflict with one another, even though we know there is perfect coalescence in thought and practical application within the plenary of “the Word of Truth.”

It’s my belief there are at least two possible reasons answering to this paradoxical situation; for the purpose of requiring Bible-studying believers to maintain an ever-increasing reliance on the Holy Spirit’s instructions for understanding (1Co 2:13); and to learn to exercise respect and kindness to one another amidst the ongoing frustrations that often arise when communicating beliefs with one another. For success here, what we believe to be the truth must be communicated “in love” (Eph 4:15).

Love to one another is the pinnacle goal of all Biblical doctrine, because practical love to God is only apprehended in practical love to others (1Jn 4:20); and God’s love is incomplete in us if we do not desire to love one another (4:12). It is common knowledge that loving God is obeying Him (Jhn 14:15; Jhn 14:21), therefore neighborly love is the primary work that maintains consistent obedience to Him; without which our walk and doctrinal conversation will be unsuccessful concerning spiritual growth.

I would also add that God's grounds for such a lack of didactic theological discourse (outside of the Levitical Law), and the use of hyperbole, allegory, parables, figures of speech and perceived contradictions, is to separate the wise from the foolish, the profound from the shallow, the sublime from the secular.

It is easy to mandate against theft or murder, for even a wicked person can refrain from these infractions, for various reasons. But, can you legislate against hate, jealousy or lust? Sometimes, the only way to expose a culprit is to speak on a level that transcends his malevolence or understanding, in order to get him to divulge his depravity. If one prescribes to turn the other cheek in face of a threat, a rather unintuitive principle, we can see very quickly by the reaction of the hearers, who amongst them understand righteousness and the deeper things of God, of which do not conform to this world. The principle of faith and the suffering Messiah, also are antagonistic ideals in a secular world where the maxim 'survival of the fittest' predominates.
Through the profundity and discretion employed in God's Word, He saw it fit to confound the pedantic and arrogant, and enlighten the humble and wise. Thus, God's Word is designed to create a dichotomy and factions amongst those who hear it.

 

[marks]

Yes, predominantly so! There is a wisdom in speaking with profundity, parables and allegory. Those that lack discernment and are of a shallow nature, always misconstrue the conveyance of the thought. This distinctly separates the sheep from the goats. Any charlatan can follow a regiment in a feigned manner, or quote Scripture verbatim, but to expound and exposit on the meaning and intent of a pericope, very quickly creates a dichotomy of tenets, and adherents.

When asked why he spoke in parables, Jesus replied, to hide the secrets of God from the wise and the prudent (secular), and to reveal the mysteries of God to the babe and the suckling. The concept of the suffering Messiah itself, is a quintessential example of such an antitheses, that very quickly creates a faction amongst theists.

I don't think the whole Bible is parable. Yes, anyone can quote Scripture, and anyone can spin a tale of the "hidden" meanings.

Interestingly, I've never seen two people interpret a passage "spiritually" in quite the same way. But I've seen many times how two and more interpret more literally and be in full agreement.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Thus, God's Word is designed to create a dichotomy and factions amongst those who hear it.

In separating the saved and the lost, yes, but among the saved, to create Unity.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I would also add that God's grounds for such a lack of didactic theological discourse (outside of the Levitical Law),

You don't consider Paul's writings didactic theological discourse? I do.

Much love!

 

[Jay Ross]

You don't consider Paul's writings didactic theological discourse? I do.

Much love!

There is much today in the various "theological" doctrines that do not bring unity within the "church/Saints," and are forcing a wedge between the various theological parties today that is producing a great disunity. Just look at the various ????-trib positions that many love to argue over.

Sadly Satan has been able to sow many lies into our understanding of who God is.

 

[justbyfaith]

There is much today in the various "theological" doctrines that do not bring unity within the "church/Saints," and are forcing a wedge between the various theological parties today that is producing a great disunity. Just look at the various ????-trib positions that many love to argue over.

Sadly Satan has been able to sow many lies into our understanding of who God is.

Those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture consider the doctrine of the timing of the GT to be a non-essential (while you may not be allowed to teach in their churches if you hold to a different viewpoint).

 

[Jay Ross]

Those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture consider the doctrine of the timing of the GT to be a non-essential (while you may not be allowed to teach in their churches if you hold to a different viewpoint).

True, but look at the "verbal wars" that go on, on this forum, over their respective beliefs.

Locking up the shop, so to speak, does not stop the lies from being propagated world wide sadly, via the internet.