Prying Thoughts

[2nd Timothy Group]

Love to one another is the pinnacle goal of all Biblical doctrine

I hear what you are saying, and I respect your teachings very much. That said, there is no greater, Biblical objective, for every human being to achieve in this life, than to be Purified of the Curse of the Sinful Nature, to be lifted of the disabling Curse of Adam and Eve. If we do not Turn to Christ for the Removal of this Sinful Mind of Satan, only to replace it with the Mind of Christ . . . we can know all things and do all things, but Jesus will still say, "Get away from me, you Lawbreakers."

Jesus is referring to the worldly Laws of Moses, and not the Spiritual, Enabling Laws of the Spirit of Life (Romans 8:2,3). For those who live by the Laws of the Spirit of Life, these are the ones who share in the Divine Nature of Christ, the New Nature that Enables, or even Causes one to Obey and live Righteously. Without the Indwelling, Divine Nature, how could anyone Obey?

Therefore, because no one whose Heart is right with the Lord, they will be Justified by Faith, not by Worldly Laws. This is amazing . . . Romans 4:14-15 NKJV - "For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression."

Because Jesus referred to those who were doing His "Work," as Lawbreakers, it is because they had not actually Turned to Christ for the Purification of their Hearts, thus, any "Work" that they may have performed, their efforts still render themselves as Lawbreakers. Christ had not removed their Stony Hearts nor given then a Right and Renewed Spirit, thus they attempt justification according to the Law, but as Paul clearly teaches, anyone who attempts to live by worldly Law, they remain under the Curse of God.

Galatians 3:10-14 NKJV - "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed [is] everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God [is] evident, for "the just shall live by faith." 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them." 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed [is] everyone who hangs on a tree"), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

And what is that Blessing of Abraham? It is the Blessing of Circumcision, but not that by the hands of men, but by the Holy and Spiritual Hands of Jesus Christ. Thus, I give you the gift of the "Two Elevens," the two distinctive passages that show the difference between wordly circumcision and Spiritual Circumcision. Yes, Circumcision is the utter Core of the Entire Bible, for without it, none of God's Word would make any sense at all.

Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV - "Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands . . ." - This physical circumcision cannot save a person's soul.
Colossians 2:11 KJV - "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ . . ." - This Spiritual Circumcision, however, is the only, ONLY act that saves a person's soul.

Romans 1:17 NLT - "This Good News tells us how God makes us right in his sight. This is accomplished from start to finish by faith. As the Scriptures say, "It is through faith that a righteous person has life." - And what is that Faith? It is the Faith of Circumcision, that those who belong to the Family of Circumcision, these are the True Children of God.

Romans 2:28-29 NLT - "For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision. 29 No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God's Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people."

I realize that I am long-winded, but believe me . . . there is so, so much more so as to demonstrate what I've written above. And this is why, precisely, I suggest that Circumcision of the Heart is the Core Objective not only of the Bible, but it should be considered the single most important event in the life of any human being. For without the Circumcision of Christ, to Love as described in First Corinthians will be utterly impossible. So again, to be Circumcised by Christ is what produces Righteous and Holy Love, thus Spiritual Circumcision is the Objective of God, and thus should be the Spiritual Objective for all who live.

Deuteronomy 30:6 KJV - "And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."
Ezekiel 36:26 KJV - "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

Without the Circumcision of Heart, the Bible would not be written, for there would be no rational Plan or Purpose within it.

NC . . . please forgive me for such a lengthy response. I hope that what I have done does not disturb you. If so, please for me.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Many will come short of the intentions in the growth truths if they continue to look too much to self for understanding.

This is True Wisdom. We cannot look upon ourselves (our behavior and way of life) so as to interpret God's Holy Word. Remarkable reply, NC.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

I'm not sure I fully understand--certainly I at least partly understand. I'm an advocate of Predesination, but neither can I deny Freewill. So there is the paradox. This ties together with spiritual development for me because discipleship is not just a matter of obeying the word of God--more, it is a matter of *loving God.*

The Scriptures actually say that to obey God's word is to love God. But we all know that many who obey God do not love God. So clearly, obeying God's word *can* be a form of loving God, or it can merely be an appearance of loving God.

Figuring out the difference between those who actually love God in their obedience and those who are doing it only for "appearance" is the difficult thing. I mean, I can discern the difference by the help of the Holy Spirit. But knowing why one chooses to love God and the other doesn't is the million dollar question.

I fall back on Predestination. And yet it isn't very satisfying. I do believe Freewill plays a role.

You possess amazing Wisdom, Randy, and I hope that this Wisdom will allow your eyes to see what I offer you . . . and be blown away.

If you were to place Colossians 2:9-15 into the Center of your heart, your million dollar question will be answered (there is no more important Scripture to know that Colossians 2:9-15). More than this, these seven verses will also deal with your gut feeling of predestination. The Circumcision of Christ is what it means to live by the Laws of the Spirit of Life, and to live by the Laws of the Spirit of Life (and no longer the wordly Laws of Moses), this is what it means to share in the Divine Nature of Christ, the New Nature than Enables us to obey. Once we live by the Laws of the Spirit of Life, no longer will Jesus say, "Get away from me, you who break God's Laws."

Explained:
Romans 8:2 KJV - "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." - The Plan of God is not to live by worldly laws that do not enable or save, but by Spiritual Laws, which in fact, to Enable and Save.
Romans 5:20-21 NIV - "The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." - And what is this Holy Grace? It is the Circumcision of Christ, the removal of the Curse of Adam and Eve.
Romans 4:15 KJV - "Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression." - By removing the Curse that causes us to disobey, what use is there for wordly Laws? And if Christ pays the debt of our sin, how much less is the Law required?
2 Peter 1:4 KJV - "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." - Again, the Promise is Christ and His exclusive Circumcision of the Heart. It is by the Operation that makes us one with Christ, who is One with God . . . thus True Jews and Christians will share in His Divine Nature, having escaped the corruption of the world that comes through the Sin Nature, the Mind of Satan.

In the future, you will note that nearly everything I say, at this forum, directly deals with Colossians 2:9-15, because without these 7 verses, which is the outline of the Work of Christ, there is no reason for the Bible to have been written, nor would there be a rational reason for God to create all that is. For the entire Plan of God revolves around the Purification of our Hearts . . . thus any other knowledge is considered fodder (and I say that with humility, not intending to offend anyone).

Lastly, we are the Covenant Family, the Family of Spiritual Circumcision founded in our Father, Abraham. We are not under a new covenant, but the same Covenant that was given to Abraham.
Genesis 17:14 NLT - "Any male who fails to be circumcised will be cut off from the covenant family for breaking the covenant." - But note that this physical only represents what has taken place Spiritually, which is exactly what water baptism signifies . . . for water baptism also is the sign of a Circumcised Heart, performed by the Spiritual Hands of Christ.
Romans 4:11 NLT - "Circumcision was a sign that Abraham already had faith and that God had already accepted him and declared him to be righteous--even before he was circumcised. So Abraham is the spiritual father of those who have faith but have not been circumcised. They are counted as righteous because of their faith." - And what is this Faith?

Deuteronomy 30:6 NIV - "The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live." - This Faith of Abraham is the only Faith that qualifies one to be a True Child of God.
Romans 4:12 NLT - "And Abraham is also the spiritual father of those who have been circumcised, but only if they have the same kind of faith Abraham had before he was circumcised."
Romans 2:29 NIV - "No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person's praise is not from other people, but from God."

So let's get back to the Garden of Eden, where the Mysterious Plan of God becomes incredibly evident. This is amazing . . .

If God would [not] have blocked Adam and Eve from the way to the Tree of Life (in the Garden), they would have been Circumcised of the Sinful Nature that they had just incurred, and beset upon all of humanity, and they would have lived forever (in eternity with and through Christ). And this is the utter Core of the Mysterious Plan of God . . . for Jews and Gentiles (and even Canaanite abominations from the Seven Nations) to be Circumcised by Christ, thus creating One type of person, One New Man.

Genesis 3:22-24 NLT - "Then the LORD God said, "Look, the human beings have become like us, knowing both good and evil. What if they reach out, take fruit from the tree of life, and eat it? Then they will live forever!" 23 So the LORD God banished them from the Garden of Eden, and he sent Adam out to cultivate the ground from which he had been made. 24 After sending them out, the LORD God stationed mighty cherubim to the east of the Garden of Eden. And he placed a flaming sword that flashed back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life."
Revelation 2:7 NLT - "Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches. To everyone who is victorious I will give fruit from the tree of life in the paradise of God."

Jesus is the Fruit. Jesus is the Tree. Jesus is the Root. For all of Scripture points to him. John 5:39 NLT - "You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me!" - And since Colossians 2:9-15 [is] the Work of Christ . . . the One who grants Eternal Life by lifting the Curse of Adam and Eve from the Hearts of His Holy Children.

If what I have presented is not clear and concise, making perfect sense . . . please forgive me. I am very sorry.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You possess amazing Wisdom, Randy, and I hope that this Wisdom will allow your eyes to see what I offer you . . . and be blown away.

If you were to place Colossians 2:9-15 into the Center of your heart, your million dollar question will be answered (there is no more important Scripture to know that Colossians 2:9-15). More than this, these seven verses will also deal with your gut feeling of predestination. The Circumcision of Christ is what it means to live by the Laws of the Spirit of Life, and to live by the Laws of the Spirit of Life (and no longer the wordly Laws of Moses), this is what it means to share in the Divine Nature of Christ, the New Nature than Enables us to obey. Once we live by the Laws of the Spirit of Life, no longer will Jesus say, "Get away from me, you who break God's Laws."

Explained:
Romans 8:2 KJV - "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." - The Plan of God is not to live by worldly laws that do not enable or save, but by Spiritual Laws, which in fact, to Enable and Save.
Romans 5:20-21 NIV - "The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." - And what is this Holy Grace? It is the Circumcision of Christ, the removal of the Curse of Adam and Eve.
Romans 4:15 KJV - "Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression." - By removing the Curse that causes us to disobey, what use is there for wordly Laws? And if Christ pays the debt of our sin, how much less is the Law required?
2 Peter 1:4 KJV - "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." - Again, the Promise is Christ and His exclusive Circumcision of the Heart. It is by the Operation that makes us one with Christ, who is One with God . . . thus True Jews and Christians will share in His Divine Nature, having escaped the corruption of the world that comes through the Sin Nature, the Mind of Satan.

In the future, you will note that nearly everything I say, at this forum, directly deals with Colossians 2:9-15, because without these 7 verses, which is the outline of the Work of Christ, there is no reason for the Bible to have been written, nor would there be a rational reason for God to create all that is. For the entire Plan of God revolves around the Purification of our Hearts . . . thus any other knowledge is considered fodder (and I say that with humility, not intending to offend anyone).

Lastly, we are the Covenant Family, the Family of Spiritual Circumcision founded in our Father, Abraham. We are not under a new covenant, but the same Covenant that was given to Abraham.
Genesis 17:14 NLT - "Any male who fails to be circumcised will be cut off from the covenant family for breaking the covenant." - But note that this physical only represents what has taken place Spiritually, which is exactly what water baptism signifies . . . for water baptism also is the sign of a Circumcised Heart, performed by the Spiritual Hands of Christ.
Romans 4:11 NLT - "Circumcision was a sign that Abraham already had faith and that God had already accepted him and declared him to be righteous--even before he was circumcised. So Abraham is the spiritual father of those who have faith but have not been circumcised. They are counted as righteous because of their faith." - And what is this Faith?

Deuteronomy 30:6 NIV - "The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live." - This Faith of Abraham is the only Faith that qualifies one to be a True Child of God.
Romans 4:12 NLT - "And Abraham is also the spiritual father of those who have been circumcised, but only if they have the same kind of faith Abraham had before he was circumcised."
Romans 2:29 NIV - "No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person's praise is not from other people, but from God."

So let's get back to the Garden of Eden, where the Mysterious Plan of God becomes incredibly evident. This is amazing . . .

If God would [not] have blocked Adam and Eve from the way to the Tree of Life (in the Garden), they would have been Circumcised of the Sinful Nature that they had just incurred, and beset upon all of humanity, and they would have lived forever (in eternity with and through Christ). And this is the utter Core of the Mysterious Plan of God . . . for Jews and Gentiles (and even Canaanite abominations from the Seven Nations) to be Circumcised by Christ, thus creating One type of person, One New Man.

Genesis 3:22-24 NLT - "Then the LORD God said, "Look, the human beings have become like us, knowing both good and evil. What if they reach out, take fruit from the tree of life, and eat it? Then they will live forever!" 23 So the LORD God banished them from the Garden of Eden, and he sent Adam out to cultivate the ground from which he had been made. 24 After sending them out, the LORD God stationed mighty cherubim to the east of the Garden of Eden. And he placed a flaming sword that flashed back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life."
Revelation 2:7 NLT - "Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches. To everyone who is victorious I will give fruit from the tree of life in the paradise of God."

Jesus is the Fruit. Jesus is the Tree. Jesus is the Root. For all of Scripture points to him. John 5:39 NLT - "You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me!" - And since Colossians 2:9-15 [is] the Work of Christ . . . the One who grants Eternal Life by lifting the Curse of Adam and Eve from the Hearts of His Holy Children.

If what I have presented is not clear and concise, making perfect sense . . . please forgive me. I am very sorry.

No, it's fine. I just would have a few comments. I agree that Col 2:9-15 is central. However, God gives different verses to different people, to emphasize different facets of the same truth. For example, he gave me 1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. For some reason God gave me that because I needed to know clearly the difference between the newborn nature within us, after conversion, as opposed to the worldly life that mixes God's truth with the world's ways.

Watchman Nee used to say that God can say so many things in just a few words given to us. And so, you can take Col 2:9-15 and use it so effectively in so many places! I'm not sure it has a thing to do with Predestination, but nevertheless, it is a central, foundational truth that can help us all.

Thinking about it, the Abrahamic Promise was given in the context of the OT reality that eternal redemption had not yet been won. And so, physical circumcision was a testimony to the spiritual circumcision that would be accomplished by Christ. Circumcision only became necessary, physical and spiritual, after the fall of Mankind. Only then did we have to suffer the violence that is required when we die to ourselves and suffer opposition for our righteousness. Otherwise, thanks for laying all that out for me!

Furthermore, I don't think that laws were given by God as a negative. After the fall, it did have the negative aspect of increasing the "sin" element in our bodies. Coming under any divine law we tend to show our rebellion, revealing sin in us.

But the purpose of God's Law is to reveal His grace in the midst of our flaws, so that we can possess His divine life at the same time that we show ourselves unworthy of it. Our failures cannot prevent us from living in God's righteousness. So the Law was never bad--it only meant to direct us to God's righteousness and to the need for His grace. We are just free from Israel's kind of OT self-redemption, in which flawed priests tried to cover for Israel before redemption was completed by Christ. It had been both ordered by and accepted by God, but it was never intended to bring eternal life until Christ brought his own redemption.

Thanks again!

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

No, it's fine. I just would have a few comments. I agree that Col 2:9-15 is central. However, God gives different verses to different people, to emphasize different facets of the same truth. For example, he gave me 1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. For some reason God gave me that because I needed to know clearly the difference between the newborn nature within us, after conversion, as opposed to the worldly life that mixes God's truth with the world's ways.

Watchman Nee used to say that God can say so many things in just a few words given to us. And so, you can take Col 2:9-15 and use it so effectively in so many places! I'm not sure it has a thing to do with Predestination, but nevertheless, it is a central, foundational truth that can help us all.

Thinking about it, the Abrahamic Promise was given in the context of the OT reality that eternal redemption had not yet been won. And so, physical circumcision was a testimony to the spiritual circumcision that would be accomplished by Christ. Circumcision only became necessary, physical and spiritual, after the fall of Mankind. Only then did we have to suffer the violence that is required when we die to ourselves and suffer opposition for our righteousness. Otherwise, thanks for laying all that out for me!

Furthermore, I don't think that laws were given by God as a negative. After the fall, it did have the negative aspect of increasing the "sin" element in our bodies. Coming under any divine law we tend to show our rebellion, revealing sin in us.

But the purpose of God's Law is to reveal His grace in the midst of our flaws, so that we can possess His divine life at the same time that we show ourselves unworthy of it. Our failures cannot prevent us from living in God's righteousness. So the Law was never bad--it only meant to direct us to God's righteousness and to the need for His grace. We are just free from Israel's kind of OT self-redemption, in which flawed priests tried to cover for Israel before redemption was completed by Christ. It had been both ordered by and accepted by God, but it was never intended to bring eternal life until Christ brought his own redemption.

Thanks again!

Good grief, it was wonderful reading your words. Thank you for such a wonderfully written piece, for as you wrote what you wrote, do you realize that you were paraphrasing the very Scrolls of Heaven? It is beautiful, what you have written, and I look forward to more!

 

[Netchaplain]

I hear what you are saying, and I respect your teachings very much. That said, there is no greater, Biblical objective, for every human being to achieve in this life, than to be Purified of the Curse of the Sinful Nature, to be lifted of the disabling Curse of Adam and Eve. If we do not Turn to Christ for the Removal of this Sinful Mind of Satan, only to replace it with the Mind of Christ . . . we can know all things and do all things, but Jesus will still say, "Get away from me, you Lawbreakers."

NC . . . please forgive me for such a lengthy response. I hope that what I have done does not disturb you. If so, please for me.

No forgiveness need, all can post as they desire on Christian sites that interact like this one, and do not have to be concerned about the amount and what they want to share, within the rules of course.

God bless!