purgatory--not!

[Randy Kluth]

1 Peter 3.18 For Christ also suffered once he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits.
Matt 12.40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

There are a few views on this, and I realize Catholics may base some of their beliefs on purgatory on these passages, as well as on 2 Maccabees, indicating Jews may have prayed for the dead. But knowing that people have an after-death existence, and actually dwell in a place does not indicate that we can visit with them or pray for them. In fact, necromancy was strongly opposed by God under the Law. And the NT Scriptures indicate that after death is eternal judgment, indicating no more prayer is availalbe.

But I would also like to suggest that Jesus, in descending into the "heart of the earth" simply means he died. Just as someone may be buried, and be completely surrounded by earth, so Jesus was buried in the heart of the earth, ie not just buried in a cave, but also completely terminated.

Hades, or Hell, was known to be the place of existence for human spirits after death, and often was associated with the place of the wicked, because it was a place where people are temporarily consigned who await eternal judgment. Many of them are going to be judged to eternal spiritual death--not the loss of existence. Others, who will not be so judged already have the hope of eternal life by their faith in Christ.

So when Jesus went into Hades, the place of the dead, he was by default not contained there. He simply remained there for 3 days, and preached to those imprisoned.

The idea of being "imprisoned" suggests these are the wicked. And the fact they are identified with those who resisted Noah's preaching indicates they are the wicked. Why would Jesus preach to them?

One important element of our preaching as Christians is the need to proclaim eternal judgment. Having been given the keys to the message of eternal life we are equipped both to judge those who reject Christ as well as bring hope to those who choose to believe in Christ. We have the power to "bind" and to "loose."

So Jesus had his own personal need, as the Son of God, to declare eternal judgment to the wicked, to consign them to eternal death, even before final sentencing takes place at the end of the Millennium. It is not our job to proclaim this eternal judgment to all those who have opposed God. But it is our job to declare the fact that Jesus made this declaration during his 3 days of death.

Our gospel is therefore critical in this world, because it truly has the power to give life to those who believe us, and to consign to judgment those who are opposing this message of salvation. We let God carry out the sentence, but it is our message that brings them under God's judgment, in my opinion.

 

[Willie T]

Well, I suppose you still have some time to get that straightened out.

 

[Jay Ross]

Well, I suppose you still have some time to get that straightened out.

"God" does appear to take many forms to fix problems.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well, I suppose you still have some time to get that straightened out.

That was a little short on explanation. Do you mean that as opposed to Purgatory, men have time to hear the Gospel, and to either accept it or reject it?

 

[101G]

1 Peter 3.18 For Christ also suffered once he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits.
Matt 12.40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

There are a few views on this, and I realize Catholics may base some of their beliefs on purgatory on these passages, as well as on 2 Maccabees, indicating Jews may have prayed for the dead. But knowing that people have an after-death existence, and actually dwell in a place does not indicate that we can visit with them or pray for them. In fact, necromancy was strongly opposed by God under the Law. And the NT Scriptures indicate that after death is eternal judgment, indicating no more prayer is availalbe.

But I would also like to suggest that Jesus, in descending into the "heart of the earth" simply means he died. Just as someone may be buried, and be completely surrounded by earth, so Jesus was buried in the heart of the earth, ie not just buried in a cave, but also completely terminated.

Hades, or Hell, was known to be the place of existence for human spirits after death, and often was associated with the place of the wicked, because it was a place where people are temporarily consigned who await eternal judgment. Many of them are going to be judged to eternal spiritual death--not the loss of existence. Others, who will not be so judged already have the hope of eternal life by their faith in Christ.

So when Jesus went into Hades, the place of the dead, he was by default not contained there. He simply remained there for 3 days, and preached to those imprisoned.

The idea of being "imprisoned" suggests these are the wicked. And the fact they are identified with those who resisted Noah's preaching indicates they are the wicked. Why would Jesus preach to them?

One important element of our preaching as Christians is the need to proclaim eternal judgment. Having been given the keys to the message of eternal life we are equipped both to judge those who reject Christ as well as bring hope to those who choose to believe in Christ. We have the power to "bind" and to "loose."

So Jesus had his own personal need, as the Son of God, to declare eternal judgment to the wicked, to consign them to eternal death, even before final sentencing takes place at the end of the Millennium. It is not our job to proclaim this eternal judgment to all those who have opposed God. But it is our job to declare the fact that Jesus made this declaration during his 3 days of death.

Our gospel is therefore critical in this world, because it truly has the power to give life to those who believe us, and to consign to judgment those who are opposing this message of salvation. We let God carry out the sentence, but it is our message that brings them under God's judgment, in my opinion.

First thanks for the topic, Good one. not saying that you're right or wrong, but that's your opinion... correct? but consider this, Ephesians 4:8 "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."
Ephesians 4:9 "(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?"
Ephesians 4:10 "He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"

this is taken from Psalms 68:18 "Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them."

who are these captive that are rebellious?

PICJAG.

 

[Randy Kluth]

First thanks for the topic, Good one. not saying that you're right or wrong, but that's your opinion... correct? but consider this, Ephesians 4:8 "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."
Ephesians 4:9 "(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?"
Ephesians 4:10 "He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"

this is taken from Psalms 68:18 "Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them."

who are these captive that are rebellious?

PICJAG.

Yea, that's an interesting passage too, and definitely should be considered. Yes this is just an *opinion.*

My view of this passage in Ephesians is that Jesus died, and in effect identified with all men, who "return to the dust." As such he is able to release us as captives to physical death, to enter back into a spiritual relationship with God. If we adopt him as our God, then we can rise with him from death and be given a new nature, like him in holiness.

The gifts we were given were to enable us to act as his administrators and representatives. We are to finish the process of restoration which he began. We preach the Gospel of his new life and of the new nature that he freely gives to those who surrender their own independence to him. And then men can complete their mission to fill the earth with the knowledge of God.

 

[Cristo Rei]

1 Peter 3.18 For Christ also suffered once he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits.
Matt 12.40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

There are a few views on this, and I realize Catholics may base some of their beliefs on purgatory on these passages, as well as on 2 Maccabees, indicating Jews may have prayed for the dead. But knowing that people have an after-death existence, and actually dwell in a place does not indicate that we can visit with them or pray for them. In fact, necromancy was strongly opposed by God under the Law. And the NT Scriptures indicate that after death is eternal judgment, indicating no more prayer is availalbe.

But I would also like to suggest that Jesus, in descending into the "heart of the earth" simply means he died. Just as someone may be buried, and be completely surrounded by earth, so Jesus was buried in the heart of the earth, ie not just buried in a cave, but also completely terminated.

Hades, or Hell, was known to be the place of existence for human spirits after death, and often was associated with the place of the wicked, because it was a place where people are temporarily consigned who await eternal judgment. Many of them are going to be judged to eternal spiritual death--not the loss of existence. Others, who will not be so judged already have the hope of eternal life by their faith in Christ.

So when Jesus went into Hades, the place of the dead, he was by default not contained there. He simply remained there for 3 days, and preached to those imprisoned.

The idea of being "imprisoned" suggests these are the wicked. And the fact they are identified with those who resisted Noah's preaching indicates they are the wicked. Why would Jesus preach to them?

One important element of our preaching as Christians is the need to proclaim eternal judgment. Having been given the keys to the message of eternal life we are equipped both to judge those who reject Christ as well as bring hope to those who choose to believe in Christ. We have the power to "bind" and to "loose."

So Jesus had his own personal need, as the Son of God, to declare eternal judgment to the wicked, to consign them to eternal death, even before final sentencing takes place at the end of the Millennium. It is not our job to proclaim this eternal judgment to all those who have opposed God. But it is our job to declare the fact that Jesus made this declaration during his 3 days of death.

Our gospel is therefore critical in this world, because it truly has the power to give life to those who believe us, and to consign to judgment those who are opposing this message of salvation. We let God carry out the sentence, but it is our message that brings them under God's judgment, in my opinion.

Hi. I'd like u to read the following passage and answer some questions for me please

and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:13-14

If Hades is hell then how is it possible that people in hell get judged and can possibly then go to heaven?
The "lake of fire is hell". How then can hell be thrown into hell?
The old testament mentions Sheol a few times. What is your definition of Sheol?

 

[101G]

Yea, that's an interesting passage too, and definitely should be considered. Yes this is just an *opinion.*

My view of this passage in Ephesians is that Jesus died, and in effect identified with all men, who "return to the dust." As such he is able to release us as captives to physical death, to enter back into a spiritual relationship with God. If we adopt him as our God, then we can rise with him from death and be given a new nature, like him in holiness.

The gifts we were given were to enable us to act as his administrators and representatives. We are to finish the process of restoration which he began. We preach the Gospel of his new life and of the new nature that he freely gives to those who surrender their own independence to him. And then men can complete their mission to fill the earth with the knowledge of God.

GINOLJC, to all.
First thanks for the reply, second, thanks for your opinion, which I honor, and consider, which you gave was a good one, and I thank you. the point I was getting at is this, in the latter part of the Psalms, "yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them." which I understand, but the, "rebellious" who he went to and preached to this is where I seek at. the Living rebellious I'm not concern with, it's those "rebellious" that are dead. and here's why,
1 Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"
1 Peter 3:19 "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"
1 Peter 3:20 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

Here in 1 Peter 3, these spirits that was disobedient, which is another word for, “rebellious”, as mention in Psalms 68:18. so if these was rebellious/disobedient spirits of the dead, what about the one’s who rebelled against God in the wilderness?, or those who was disobedient under the New testament?. because this present a problem in the statement that, "ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED", this is found in Romans 11:26. now if all Israel "Shall", be saved, which is a future tense designation, why go preach to the spirit in prison if there is no chance after death?. but those who died before who was preached to but not having faith are doomed?, listen, Hebrews 4:2 "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it." now that's a key point. because they entered not into his "rest". (I have an oponion about that but I will hold my mouth for now). even those before them was in the same boat, as a matter of speech. so are we saying that all who was preached to are lost, not having FAITH, mixed?

for if all Israel is saved, and they was preached to, and not having Faith to profit, or change them are they lost without hope also, now that they are dead?

this is a very intresting topic.

Now if you don't mind, may I inject something into the subject. Luke 20:37 "Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob."
Luke 20:38 "For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him." that's OT, now the NT.

Romans 14:8 "For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's." (keep that thought in mind), now the next verse,
Romans 14:9 "For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living."

Now this is a game changer for me. when our Lord Jesus died, he became the God of the dead, and when he rose and revived, he is the God of the Living also. one other thing, Hebrews 7:12 "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."

think on these things, and if need be re-read this post and get back with me, for your topic is very interesting.


PICJAG.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

The subject of going to Heaven or to Hell is in regards to the Soul.
All who oppose Jesus Christ will not go to Heaven.
All who before Jesus came in his Glory, who were worthy of God Soul went to a place and we see that Jesus came for them and took them to Heaven. So then we have all the rest who were not worthy ? well their Souls are in torment for ever, because they know that they did not cut it.

The people from after Jesus Came may go to Heaven but many may not go to Heaven for a time to pay for their own Sins, now the religious does not like to ponder on such a concept for they have a grave fear of pain ? and the concept is a grave fear to them, so they really get angry at any such concept, because they do not want to pay for all their own sins, because they love Sin it's their pride ! so they make up a worldly heaven of their dreams.
Such people claim that they will have another body and such will make claims that after the rapture they will be spared the pain of such and then come back down again in the flesh when it's over. they fear pain ?
You are not going to have a Body in Heaven, only your Soul will be a body, as it was made in the image of God. one will not be a man or woman but of the Spirit. each person has a Soul and that is not male or female, it's a Soul, it can not be hurt ! it can not be killed ! but the Soul that has lost contact with God is lost. when one becomes born again it's your Soul that is in harmony with God because you know God and God is in contact with you, due to the Holy Spirit, you can not be lost once contact has been made, so no one can snatch you out from such, for you are in the hand of God abiding in such.
Bible points out about paying for your Sins to the very last Cent. but the carnal religious does not want to hear that, he is ? of his sins, he would never pay back one for the trouble he caused one with his Sins. you see that many a time. hey you just caused one of your brothers a lot of grief bro, well do they truly give a cracker ? if they can get away with such they will try, that's carnal religious man for ya. howdy God knows what you do boy, you can not hide. remember Adam and eve and when they was hiding ? well they was kicked out of his Kingdom. remember Gods says you will reap what you sow and that is also collectively.
All such sin builds up until all are burnt by it. well Hey that's one to tell the Climate change Mob hey ! you all is heating up the planet with your Sins bro ! see if they give a mind to such as that .

 

[Willie T]

The subject of going to Heaven or to Hell is in regards to the Soul.
All who oppose Jesus Christ will not go to Heaven.
All who before Jesus came in his Glory, who were worthy of God Soul went to a place and we see that Jesus came for them and took them to Heaven. So then we have all the rest who were not worthy ? well their Souls are in torment for ever, because they know that they did not cut it.

The people from after Jesus Came may go to Heaven but many may not go to Heaven for a time to pay for their own Sins, now the religious does not like to ponder on such a concept for they have a grave fear of pain ? and the concept is a grave fear to them, so they really get angry at any such concept, because they do not want to pay for all their own sins, because they love Sin it's their pride ! so they make up a worldly heaven of their dreams.
Such people claim that they will have another body and such will make claims that after the rapture they will be spared the pain of such and then come back down again in the flesh when it's over. they fear pain ?
You are not going to have a Body in Heaven, only your Soul will be a body, as it was made in the image of God. one will not be a man or woman but of the Spirit. each person has a Soul and that is not male or female, it's a Soul, it can not be hurt ! it can not be killed ! but the Soul that has lost contact with God is lost. when one becomes born again it's your Soul that is in harmony with God because you know God and God is in contact with you, due to the Holy Spirit, you can not be lost once contact has been made, so no one can snatch you out from such, for you are in the hand of God abiding in such.
Bible points out about paying for your Sins to the very last Cent. but the carnal religious does not want to hear that, he is ? of his sins, he would never pay back one for the trouble he caused one with his Sins. you see that many a time. hey you just caused one of your brothers a lot of grief bro, well do they truly give a cracker ? if they can get away with such they will try, that's carnal religious man for ya. howdy God knows what you do boy, you can not hide. remember Adam and eve and when they was hiding ? well they was kicked out of his Kingdom. remember Gods says you will reap what you sow and that is also collectively.
All such sin builds up until all are burnt by it. well Hey that's one to tell the Climate change Mob hey ! you all is heating up the planet with your Sins bro ! see if they give a mind to such as that .

Just a suggestion….. But I think a small bit of study will show you that you meant to use the word "spirit" where you used "soul."

 

[Randy Kluth]

GINOLJC, to all.
First thanks for the reply, second, thanks for your opinion, which I honor, and consider, which you gave was a good one, and I thank you. the point I was getting at is this, in the latter part of the Psalms, "yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them." which I understand, but the, "rebellious" who he went to and preached to this is where I seek at. the Living rebellious I'm not concern with, it's those "rebellious" that are dead. and here's why,
1 Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"
1 Peter 3:19 "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"
1 Peter 3:20 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

Here in 1 Peter 3, these spirits that was disobedient, which is another word for, “rebellious”, as mention in Psalms 68:18. so if these was rebellious/disobedient spirits of the dead, what about the one’s who rebelled against God in the wilderness?, or those who was disobedient under the New testament?. because this present a problem in the statement that, "ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED", this is found in Romans 11:26. now if all Israel "Shall", be saved, which is a future tense designation, why go preach to the spirit in prison if there is no chance after death?. but those who died before who was preached to but not having faith are doomed?, listen, Hebrews 4:2 "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it." now that's a key point. because they entered not into his "rest". (I have an oponion about that but I will hold my mouth for now). even those before them was in the same boat, as a matter of speech. so are we saying that all who was preached to are lost, not having FAITH, mixed?

for if all Israel is saved, and they was preached to, and not having Faith to profit, or change them are they lost without hope also, now that they are dead?

this is a very intresting topic.

Now if you don't mind, may I inject something into the subject. Luke 20:37 "Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob."
Luke 20:38 "For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him." that's OT, now the NT.

Romans 14:8 "For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's." (keep that thought in mind), now the next verse,
Romans 14:9 "For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living."

Now this is a game changer for me. when our Lord Jesus died, he became the God of the dead, and when he rose and revived, he is the God of the Living also. one other thing, Hebrews 7:12 "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."

think on these things, and if need be re-read this post and get back with me, for your topic is very interesting.


PICJAG.

Yea, I believe I know where you're coming from, and although I don't exactly agree, I certainly agree with the sentiment. And after all, the salvation of the "rebellious" is all-important. Otherwise, who would be saved? Certainly I've been rebellious in my life!

But I don't think that's what's being said, although it's just my opinion. I can't be sure at this point. It seems to me it's talking about something that is not often acknowledged in our day and age, in which we are soft and overly tolerant. We think this is all about preaching a gospel of salvation. But I believe it's more about preaching a message of judgment to the wicked. Just as Israel had been temporarily covered by animal sacrifices and had to eventually enter into Christ's permanent redemption, so the wicked have been held in temporary punishment until they enter into eternal judgment.

And part of our message is to inform the world of the consequences of their decisions. If they choose Christ, we can inform them that they will live forever. But if they choose wickedness, and reject the atonement of Christ, they will suffer eternal separation from the blessed Kingdom of God. They will serve God forever without the blessing of God's intimate presence, and apart from the saints in God's Kingdom.

Sometimes the "rebellious" can refer to those God forgives, when they are informed of God's grace, and they choose to repent. But sometimes the "rebellious" refers to the calcified choices of men, who always resist repentance, and actually oppose the Gospel. They want to support the idea that men only need God for their existence, and should be, like God Himself, independent and determiners of their own destinies.

 

[101G]

Yea, I believe I know where you're coming from, and although I don't exactly agree, I certainly agree with the sentiment. And after all, the salvation of the "rebellious" is all-important. Otherwise, who would be saved? Certainly I've been rebellious in my life!

But I don't think that's what's being said, although it's just my opinion. I can't be sure at this point. It seems to me it's talking about something that is not often acknowledged in our day and age, in which we are soft and overly tolerant. We think this is all about preaching a gospel of salvation. But I believe it's more about preaching a message of judgment to the wicked. Just as Israel had been temporarily covered by animal sacrifices and had to eventually enter into Christ's permanent redemption, so the wicked have been held in temporary punishment until they enter into eternal judgment.

And part of our message is to inform the world of the consequences of their decisions. If they choose Christ, we can inform them that they will live forever. But if they choose wickedness, and reject the atonement of Christ, they will suffer eternal separation from the blessed Kingdom of God. They will serve God forever without the blessing of God's intimate presence, and apart from the saints in God's Kingdom.

Sometimes the "rebellious" can refer to those God forgives, when they are informed of God's grace, and they choose to repent. But sometimes the "rebellious" refers to the calcified choices of men, who always resist repentance, and actually oppose the Gospel. They want to support the idea that men only need God for their existence, and should be, like God Himself, independent and determiners of their own destinies.

First thanks for your reply, and I agree with your sentiments also, for God can do any and everythings he's want and that's a fact. everytime I think I have God down to an understanding, then something comes up and changes my mind. I do know one thing, his will is going to be done. I'm like you, we all been rebellious and he saved us, so where do we have a right to say someone else can or cannot be saved either, before death, or after. God can do anything, and that alone keeps my mouth close on the subject as to who is saved, or not. because God has "ALL POWER", to save or not to save, and there is nothing we can do about it. but thank God that the Lord Jesus came and save us. and I hope many, many, many more be saved also.

it was a pleasure in talking with you. may God bless you and be safe.

PICJAG.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Just a suggestion….. But I think a small bit of study will show you that you meant to use the word "spirit" where you used "soul."

We all have a Soul but it needs to be connected to the Vine so to speak, as to come alive and bear fruit in the Vine. Jesus is the Vine. the two are one in the same but different identity's.
Born again = abiding in the Vine.