QUESTION 1 for YOU - IF YOU BELIEVE JESUS is GOD
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So; now you equate yourself to the Great Apostle Paul?Purity said:
That's quite an ego you have!
You still have not answered the critical questions on your own teachings?
Floyd.
The Apostle Paul
[SIZE=14pt]Paul's ability and learning made him at that time probably the most learned of the young rabbis (teachers.) In fact in his testimony before King Agrippa, (Acts 25 and 26,) he made a point of mentioning that he had been taught by Gamaliel, who was one of the most revered teachers of the Law ever in Israel. His head knowledge was beyond dispute, and together with his even more important quality, (his heartfelt dedication,) led him to persecute to death the early Christians. These very qualities, (particularly the Lord's knowledge of his sincere and dedicated heart,) led to that most favoured of pronouncements from the Lord; "he is a chosen vessel!" (Acts 9:15.) Also, as shown in his testimony before King Agrippa. See: [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Apostle Paul's Accusershttp://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/Apostle Pauls Accusers.htm[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] (Separate study)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]John the Baptist, Jesus and the Apostle Paul berated the Jewish Hierarchy of the day for adhering to the Pharisaic writings, instead of the Originals given to Moses, known as "Biblical Judaism." It is recorded and well known by the Jews, that the Pharisees in particular were "very flexible" in their interpretations of Torah, and this is confirmed by the Qumran Scrolls. Of the main 'schools,' or Groups of the day, the Pharisees, the Sadducees and the Essens; the Pharisees became dominant, and at the time of the destruction of the Temple in AD 70, only the "Judaism of the Pharisees," known as "Rabbinic Judaism" prevailed! This grew, and by AD 300, all the Pharisaic Interpretations had been tabulated in the "Mishnah". See [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Jewish Scriptures: [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]This is the basis of "Modern (Orthodox) Judaism."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]This is why the Truths of the Messiah of Almighty God, as depicted and prophesied in the "Biblical Judaism" of the Old Testament (OT), are not accepted by the Jews who adhere to the current "Rabbinical Judaism" which is derived from the Pharisees.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Paul made it clear that at his encounter with the Risen Christ on the Damascus road, that He (Christ) would be in constant contact with him, and that there would be initial instructions, and that later instructions would be forthcoming from Christ. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]
Those latter instructions[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] were withheld until the Jews had finally rejected Christ, at the last of the synagogues in Rome (Acts 28:25-27.) It is well known that individual Jews become Christians, then and now. However, for the Jewish nation to be fully in God's favour and fulfilled as per prophecy, the Ruling Groups (the Elite) must accept "Him whom they pierced” [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt](Zech. 12-10,) and when that happens, then "National Israel" will be reborn, and all the promises of Jehovah God relative to them will start to be fulfilled, including the land borders promised![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]When National Israel rejected Christ as Messiah[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] at Acts 28:25-27, Paul immediately turned to the Gentiles, in the profound statement in Acts 28:28, which indicated the change in the Administration (Dispensation!) That point also was when Paul could no longer heal on request, (2Tim. 4:20) as the Jewish race became "Lo Ammi," (not my people,) and the special powers given for the drawing together and teaching of that people, declared by Peter at Pentecost, ceased.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]It is argued by some that there is no proof in Scripture that Paul had such powers, but Acts 19:5-15, shows otherwise, amongst many other verses! The power for "spiritual gifts" that was evident with the Jews in Acts etc. has ceased, in the sense of their then manifestation. That was exclusively God's Jewish dealings. The Holy Spirit does act now through people and events, but not in the same way, and not for the same reasons and effect. There will be quite similar happenings when the events of Revelation are current, but the prime object then will again be the Jewish nation, in the contest between Satan and Jehovah Zebaoth, on a much larger scale, but reminiscent of the spiritual battle between Moses and Pharaoh.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]There is a continuing emphasis in "churches" and sects, to apportion to themselves those things which properly belong to the Nation of Israel, when God is dealing with them as a Nation; instead of realising that the Gospels and the early Acts period are in fact a continuation of the Old Testament, and a propagation of the New Testament, offered by Christ to His people the Jews![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The final rejection of Christ as Messiah at Acts 28:26-30, and the rejection of the New Covenant by Israel, introduced the Gentiles for the first time as the prime object of God's Mercy and Plan! Acts 28:28 states; "Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God, is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it." Paul is here speaking to the Roman Jews, v25-27, but by extension to all Israel! That critical point specifically started the "Age of Grace," which is still in play, when "all who will, may come" (to Christ Jesus) from Gentile and Jew![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The Jew though has an inability to "see clearly," God has placed a veil over their understanding due to their rejection of Jesus (2Cor. 3:14,) at this present time, which will be removed at a later date, when they become "Ammi," (my people) again.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]That is the present Dispensation, in which all people of all races can be Saved from destruction because of their sin and sin nature, and is the free gift of God in Christ's substitutionary death on the cross of Calvary, which God the Father accepts as sufficient for all sin! This Great Salvation can be obtained now! All that is required is the sincere decision by a person, which can only be genuine, for this most wondrous of gifts to be obtained! This offer is still available, and has been for nearly 2000 years, but will only last for a definite period of time. That timing is in the hands of God the Father, and many think that it will be withdrawn soon, as the events of prophecy start to take place regarding Israel![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The last seven of Paul's writings (Eph., Phil., Col., Tim. 1 & 2, Titus, and Philemon,) give the change of emphasis in the Gentile period, which is from Acts 28:28, until sometime in the future, when the Body of Christ is taken to Him, (The Rapture.) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]It is the writers opinion that this takes place prior to "Ammi," (my people) condition of the Jews, but there is much dispute and difference of opinion on this. A most possible timing is at the same time as Christ rescues His Remnant people Israel.
In conclusion, Paul was a "chosen vessel," (Acts 9:15,) to give Israel guidance and understanding, the understanding; they needed of the "New Covenant" (Jer. 31:31- 37) had they accepted Christ as Messiah, to guide them into the "Kingdom Age." [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Had they accepted Paul's message and Christ; John the Baptist would have "been as Elijah" (Matt.11:14 and 17:9-13,) as Jesus stated. When they rejected, he became 100% "the Apostle to the Gentile" (Romans 11:13.) This statement refutes the oft made comment by some church leaders and teachers, that "Paul's teaching, and Christ's teaching contradict", (see above Link).[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]It is a profound truth, that Paul was the mouthpiece of Christ after His resurrection, and therefore the words of Paul are the words of Christ Himself! [/SIZE]To understand that, is to see that Paul's words must be revered and used for understanding of the complex events following Pentecost, and the events that Peter was describing! When it is realised that Paul's words are Christ's Words, a new impetuous and accuracy is added to the interpretation of the Bible, in the sense that instead of Christ's and Paul's teachings appearing to conflict, as so many churches teach, they are interwoven in the Truth of the Word! The onus is on us to see the real meanings!
Im sorry to disappoint youPurity said:
(Job 33:4) “The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.”
"Spirit" - “ruwach” = wind, breath, mind, Spirit (It is used 378 times in the Old Testament and is translated "spirit" 232 times)
“ breath” - “nĕshamah” = breath, spirit (used 24 x in 24 verses in the following manner: breath (17x), blast (3x), spirit (2x), inspiration (1x), souls (1x).)
The Spirit has been active throughout creation up until this point,
So in light of the observation I made about the Spirits work in creation Just like God and Just like Jesus, what have I said that you have deemed wrong? Or blind as you put it.
The Bible refers to the Spirit as “The Spirit” when talking about “The Spirit?”
Why not Gods power? Gods force? Gods might? Or even more often as Gods breath?
It is referred to as Gods Spirit however, but that doesn’t work for you because that plays in to the hand of a Trinitarian view.
So the Arians say that the Holy Spirit must be a kind of force, the might of God, his power.
but Zechariah 4:6 says
“Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.”
I haven’t said anything to disagree with this, in fact I stated it first, so what point am I missing?Purity said:
But you seem to be adamant that he never saw the lord physically either,
Can you explain to me who Abraham was talking to when the Lord showed up and told him of his plan to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah?
What Lord was he seeing feeding talking too?
What was the whole point of the Lord talking with Abraham about the destruction of Sodom, what event was it to be a picture of? Who does Abraham plead to about Lot and his family?
What is Peter teaching us here?Purity said:
Christ speaking with Abraham has no bearing in the context of what he is talking about in this teaching purity, there is no need to bring up every time the Lord has appeared throughout human history. We would loose the point of what Peter here is getting at, which is how to live before God our Father.
Blessings :)
Thank you again!justaname said:Old Jack gets a big Christian hug for himself!
I sinfully have to hug myself in my community too much due to 24/7 Bible thumpers in the State I live in, ie, in and out of the Churches, are not that well liked or accepted.
Old perfect 'thumper' happy Jack
btw one cannot but agape our Godman Lord Jesus Christ even paying attention to this thread.
Appreciate you and your words, ie, kickstarted my day :)
John1:1 happens to be1 of about 4 verses in the Bible,that supports your side of the debate.There must be more than 50 verses that say otherwise,which is the reason we can have this debate in the first place.My personal belief is that Jesus was halfman halfGod.I do not agree that he was equal to God the creator.StanJ said:
A lot more than 4, but then you have to be able to see that. Sounds like you are willing to throw away these 4 verses rather than find out how they fit with all the other verses you assert support your belief. Jesus was ALL man and ALL God, hence His hypostatic nature. Are you also willing to disregard the following verse? I have many others I can supply you as well that will show God's triune nature.Pelaides said:
[SIZE=9.5pt]Is 9:6[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.[/SIZE]
Watch out jw's...............don't want to be wearing egg all over your face......get it.......egg......triune :)
Just kiddin...............just me bein my silly self.....
to all the jw's in here.....have a beautiful day.
Just kiddin...............just me bein my silly self.....
to all the jw's in here.....have a beautiful day.
I am use to it ;)Im sorry to disappoint you
Your list was inferring the Holy Spirit (Spirit) was one person of the Trinity when as you have expressed about it is the Power of God.
Not so - you are correct the Spirit is the Power and Wisdom of God and His alone to give - though now that God (The Father) who has life in himself has given that life to Jesus which is now in himself both Father and Son can give life, power and Spirit.
Absolutely! Scriptures is very clear on this.
good quote!
"Not by might"....That is, not by the strength of the flesh.
"Nor by power".... Nor by the influence of authority.
"But by My Spirit....By divine help alone (Isa 59:16), and not by reliance upon the might of men or the power of flesh, all difficulties, all opposition, both now and in the future, will be conquered.
That was the lesson that Zerubbabel, and all saints, must learn. Zerubbabel and his associates faced a "mountain" of opposition in the building of the temple, but this vision revealed that it would be conquered and levelled as a plain, if they drew upon the means that Yahweh was prepared to make available to them. Paul learned the lesson, and taught that he could do "all things through Christ which strengtheneth me" (Php 4:13).
Strength is available for us from the same source, because "the testimony of Jesus" constitutes God's spirit (Joh 6:63; Eph 6:17; John 5:6; Joh 17:17) by which power, the saints have been enabled to conquer (Rev 12:11). In the future, a mountain of Gentile opposition to the establishment of the kingdom of God will arise, to be likewise levelled to a plain by "God's Spirit." All political power is destined to be humbled before the feet of the Lord Jesus and his followers. "But this will not result by the power and strength of Israel under any organisation they might constitute; for at that crisis their power and strength will have been utterly scattered; but it shall be accomplished by Yahweh's Spirit, which will raise Zerubbabel and his companions from among the dead, to be the captains of Israel together with the living believers; and will be the strength and power energising them all to the complete reduction of the Great Political Mountain of the Gentiles to the level of a summer threshing-floor; even to cause to go forth the Head, or Chief Stone, with shouting of 'Grace, grace unto him!'" As the light of the lampstand in the vision of Zechariah destroyed the darkness of the night (Zec 4:2), so will Yahweh's Spirit manifested through His immortalised saints, destroy Gentile darkness at Christ's return (Isa 60:1-2).
I will leave it there for now.
Well your Zech 4:6 quote proved the Spirit is Gods Power and Authority which is greater than the strength of flesh and its political powers.
Correction: Angels showed up....
I think you missed a great deal there Mazda.
When a NT Inspired Apostle teaches you that Abraham entertained Angels I suggest you take him at his word. Three angels 1, stayed with Abraham and Sarah while the other two went into Sodom.
To suggest Jesus was there is gross mutilation of the text and the highest form of inference I am yet to witness in this forum to date. Not only are you neglecting Peters letter but you infer a pre-existent Christ when clearly Jesus is a created being.
Like you!
Peace
P.
That egg gets me every time!
Though I am not a JW and I even cringe when they knock - especially the Mormons - had three young men in my room recently discussing the nature of Christ - they didn't have a clue - it's like cloning - should be made illegal.
Its evening here in Melbourne Randor but you enjoy what's left of the day. You know what the Master tells us about the coming night? John 3:19
....whose deeds? must the devils (couldn't help myself!) I crack myself up sometimes.
P.
This will be ignored by P;!StanJ said:
When ever this verse comes to mind; I find it exhilarating!
Floyd.
I will start here I think
Purity, on 29 May 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:
Did you see that purity, in your defence that Jesus (Christ) does not show up prior to Abraham you pick out 1 Peter 1:20
1 Peter 1:20
New King James Version (NKJV)
[SIZE=.75em]20 [/SIZE]He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
You argument was that he was not manifest but merely "foreordained" which does nothing to prove your point "but was manifest in these last times for you" saying that this would not make sense if Jesus had shown up.
to which I did a crazy unheard of thing and read the entire passage in its context and realised the subject of this particular discourse by Peter was 'how to live as a Child of God'.
Not a history lesson teaching us how many times Jesus appeared before his birth.. Whoa!!
This is exactly what I said :-What is Peter teaching us here?
Christ speaking with Abraham has no bearing in the context of what he is talking about in this teaching purity, there is no need to bring up every time the Lord has appeared throughout human history. We would loose the point of what Peter here is getting at, which is how to live before God our Father.
To which you exclaim....
:blink:...............................whoa?
Heres the story morning glory
Abram was being a good host to the strangers based on the custom, but he knew one of them personally.
The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, page 24, states regarding Genesis 18:2 ;
“that Abraham was an exemplary and hospitable host and that He did all he could do to serve his guests.”
Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown's Commentary says regarding verse 2
“that when someone at that time was visited by an ordinary person, the person considered the host would simply stand up. However, if the visitor was of some 'superior rank' (or a friend), the custom was to bow low then lead the visitor(s) to a tent.”
The word "Lord" used in the first verse of Genesis 18 is derived from the word Yehovah, the pronunciation of which is usually Jehovah. The Bible tells us in places like Genesis 12:1, 15:1, and so on that the 'father of the faithful' had seen the "Lord" several times.
In verse 3 of chapter 18, the word "Lord" is identical to the first verse in the chapter, but is in a plural form. This would indicate that Abram did not know, at least straight away, who his visitors were since they initially looked like other humans.
Actually It wasn’t until after everyone had finished eating that he realized the REAL identity of those he served and their TRUE purpose (Take a geez at Genesis 18:9 - 15). Abraham then understood that one of the 'men' he had been yakking too with was none other than the Lord manifested as a man!
Genesis 18:17-22 continues:
17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?... 20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know. 22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
Good stuff aye. yummy in my tummy.
2. Everything you quoted below doesn’t either
Zerubbabel, governor of Jerusalem, is faced with what seems to be an impossible task. God had spoken to his heart and told him to rebuild the temple. but to rebuild is almost nearly impossible.
In fact it is referred to as “A great mountain”
My brother one of the hardest spiritual experience you will have in your life will be a “revival” experience, it will be refreshing like rekindling a fire.
Zerubbabel realized this and opposition came. He was faced with opposition surrounding this city trying to do whatever it took to discourage the people from rebuilding.
Just like the devil will try to frighten us, devour us and distract us today.
(2 Timothy 1:6) Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands. 7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.
So what does the Holy Spirit have to do with Zach 4:6?
In sermon a delivered by REV. C. H. Spurgeon says
“The Father hath power; for by his word were the heavens made, and all the hosts of them; by his strength all things stand, and through him they fulfil their destiny. The Son hath power; for, like his Father, he is the Creator of all things; "Without him was not anything made that was made," and "by him all things consist." And the Holy Spirit hath power. It is concerning the power of the Holy Ghost that I shall speak this morning; and may you have a practical exemplification of that attribute in your own hearts, when you shall feel that the influence of the Holy Ghost is being poured out upon me, so that I am speaking the words of the living God to your souls, and bestowed upon you when you are feeling the effects of it in your own spirits.”
That is strength of revival in men, Gods out stretched arm, the Holy Spirit that works in the hearts of men, in this case to stand before opposition and rebuild the temple.
You said it yourself here
It was by the Spirit of the Lord of hosts working in the spirit of Cyrus inclining him to proclaim liberty bringing the exiles out of Babylon and into Canaan the second time.
And
It was by the Spirit of the Lord of hosts that the people were excited to build the temple; and they were helped by the prophets of God, as the Spirit’s mouth, spoke to their hearts, (Ezra 5:2.)
It was by the same Spirit that the heart of Darius was inclined to help the good work and make it so sworn enemies became focused on their councils, so that they could not make problems as the others designed.
And in the same way purity it is by the Spirit of the Lord of hosts, who works on the consciences of man that becomes the strength to pull down strong-holds. And thus the excellency of the power is of God, and not of man.
MMMMM MMMMMM gooooood
lets try this again shall we, I will repeat the post I was replying to and see if it jogs your memory, here it isPurity said:
Purity, on 29 May 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:
Purity said:
Did you see that purity, in your defence that Jesus (Christ) does not show up prior to Abraham you pick out 1 Peter 1:20
1 Peter 1:20
New King James Version (NKJV)
[SIZE=.75em]20 [/SIZE]He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
You argument was that he was not manifest but merely "foreordained" which does nothing to prove your point "but was manifest in these last times for you" saying that this would not make sense if Jesus had shown up.
to which I did a crazy unheard of thing and read the entire passage in its context and realised the subject of this particular discourse by Peter was 'how to live as a Child of God'.
Not a history lesson teaching us how many times Jesus appeared before his birth..
Whoa!! This is exactly what I said :-What is Peter teaching us here?
Christ speaking with Abraham has no bearing in the context of what he is talking about in this teaching purity, there is no need to bring up every time the Lord has appeared throughout human history. We would loose the point of what Peter here is getting at, which is how to live before God our Father.
To which you exclaim....
Ummm ok :blink:Purity said:
Purity said:
:blink:...............................whoa?
Mate, I dont even need to point out what you did here for others to understand exactly what Im trying to show you.
Wow powerful argument bro!! :huh:Purity said:
Heres the story morning glory
Abram was being a good host to the strangers based on the custom, but he knew one of them personally.
The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, page 24, states regarding Genesis 18:2 ;
“that Abraham was an exemplary and hospitable host and that He did all he could do to serve his guests.”
Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown's Commentary says regarding verse 2
“that when someone at that time was visited by an ordinary person, the person considered the host would simply stand up. However, if the visitor was of some 'superior rank' (or a friend), the custom was to bow low then lead the visitor(s) to a tent.”
The word "Lord" used in the first verse of Genesis 18 is derived from the word Yehovah, the pronunciation of which is usually Jehovah. The Bible tells us in places like Genesis 12:1, 15:1, and so on that the 'father of the faithful' had seen the "Lord" several times.
In verse 3 of chapter 18, the word "Lord" is identical to the first verse in the chapter, but is in a plural form. This would indicate that Abram did not know, at least straight away, who his visitors were since they initially looked like other humans.
Actually It wasn’t until after everyone had finished eating that he realized the REAL identity of those he served and their TRUE purpose (Take a geez at Genesis 18:9 - 15). Abraham then understood that one of the 'men' he had been yakking too with was none other than the Lord manifested as a man!
Genesis 18:17-22 continues:
17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?... 20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know. 22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
Good stuff aye. yummy in my tummy.
1. The Zech 4:6 quote does not prove that the Spirit is merely “a power”Purity said:
2. Everything you quoted below doesn’t either
Purity said:
Zerubbabel, governor of Jerusalem, is faced with what seems to be an impossible task. God had spoken to his heart and told him to rebuild the temple. but to rebuild is almost nearly impossible.
In fact it is referred to as “A great mountain”
My brother one of the hardest spiritual experience you will have in your life will be a “revival” experience, it will be refreshing like rekindling a fire.
Zerubbabel realized this and opposition came. He was faced with opposition surrounding this city trying to do whatever it took to discourage the people from rebuilding.
Just like the devil will try to frighten us, devour us and distract us today.
(2 Timothy 1:6) Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands. 7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.
So what does the Holy Spirit have to do with Zach 4:6?
In sermon a delivered by REV. C. H. Spurgeon says
“The Father hath power; for by his word were the heavens made, and all the hosts of them; by his strength all things stand, and through him they fulfil their destiny. The Son hath power; for, like his Father, he is the Creator of all things; "Without him was not anything made that was made," and "by him all things consist." And the Holy Spirit hath power. It is concerning the power of the Holy Ghost that I shall speak this morning; and may you have a practical exemplification of that attribute in your own hearts, when you shall feel that the influence of the Holy Ghost is being poured out upon me, so that I am speaking the words of the living God to your souls, and bestowed upon you when you are feeling the effects of it in your own spirits.”
That is strength of revival in men, Gods out stretched arm, the Holy Spirit that works in the hearts of men, in this case to stand before opposition and rebuild the temple.
You said it yourself here
Do you know the story ?Purity said:
It was by the Spirit of the Lord of hosts working in the spirit of Cyrus inclining him to proclaim liberty bringing the exiles out of Babylon and into Canaan the second time.
And
It was by the Spirit of the Lord of hosts that the people were excited to build the temple; and they were helped by the prophets of God, as the Spirit’s mouth, spoke to their hearts, (Ezra 5:2.)
It was by the same Spirit that the heart of Darius was inclined to help the good work and make it so sworn enemies became focused on their councils, so that they could not make problems as the others designed.
And in the same way purity it is by the Spirit of the Lord of hosts, who works on the consciences of man that becomes the strength to pull down strong-holds. And thus the excellency of the power is of God, and not of man.
MMMMM MMMMMM gooooood
PURITY.....Though I am not a JW and I even cringe when they knock - especially the Mormons - had three young men in my room recently discussing the nature of Christ - they didn't have a clue - it's like cloning - should be made illegal.
Huhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh what happened to you? what cha mean your not a jw?
Did I miss somthin here.
Soooooooooooooo if you are not a jw.................then what are you? Who's your leader.....
Huhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh what happened to you? what cha mean your not a jw?
Did I miss somthin here.
Soooooooooooooo if you are not a jw.................then what are you? Who's your leader.....
Hmmmmmmmmmm
Me thinks you be a jw.......
Romans....tells me nothing.....I'm gettin nothin here....
Hey if it looks like a chicken walks like a chicken and sounds like a chicken...it must....................
Me thinks you be a jw.......
Romans....tells me nothing.....I'm gettin nothin here....
Hey if it looks like a chicken walks like a chicken and sounds like a chicken...it must....................
I didn't think you were, for the very reason you indicated. They pretty much just spout what the WTTS tells them to.Purity said:
Christadelphian maybe?
[SIZE=28pt]Christadelphians[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](The Greek: "Brothers of Christ").[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]A Christian sect founded approx. 1848 by John Thomas (1805 - 71). Who after studying medicine in London migrated to New York. He joined a local Christian group in New York called "Disciples of Christ" (Christians). He eventually began preaching independently, mainly applying Hebrew prophecy and the book of Revelation to current and future events. The name "Christadelphians" was adopted during the US civil war when they organised formally to object to military service.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The local organisation is called an "ecclesia" not a church, and is the principle unit of church government. There is no general overall organisation for the group. No distinction is made between clergy and laity. Ruling or serving brethren are elected and minister without compensation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The Bible is the only authoritative creed. Membership in the group requires a profession of faith and baptism by immersion. Orthodox views of the Trinity are rejected. The theology is strongly Millennialist. They expect Christ to return and rule the world from Jerusalem for 1000 years, which is a view shared with most Bible based Christian groups.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]There are members in the US, Great Britain, Australia, Canada, Germany and New Zealand, (1960s census).[/SIZE]
Floyd.
[SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]
Floyd.
[SIZE=14pt]From Floyd:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Where the Deity of Christ Jesus is called into question by human agency, the true Christian (Christ-One) must always hold the doubter in a very careful embrace, as the main weapon of the great enemy Satan, is to cast doubt into the minds of all humans regarding the truth and veracity of God’s Word. When one considers the powerful assault on the early church regarding the Deity of Jesus the Christ, and when one sees that the Roman Church had the power to accept or reject that Doctrine, and went on to adopt so much of ancient Babylon’s religious practice; it is easy to see the truth of our Lord’s and the Apostle Paul’s words, that “Satan is the god of this world”! That statement means that Satan has the power and authority at present on earth which almost everybody is oblivious to, which leaves the world’s people at a disadvantage; as they are not able to discern most or any of his actions. That is especially true if they are members of one of the many Sects now abundant including especially the New Age Movement! Satan clearly showed his power and authority when attempting to seduce the newly baptised Jesus in the wilderness (Matt. 4:9); which attempt mirrored his actions in Eden with the first Adam. Jesus had just started His mission on earth as the “second Adam” (1 Cor. 15:22, 45,); but was not going to fail, as the first Adam did so soon! [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The Deity of Jesus Christ[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](The Greek: "Brothers of Christ").[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]A Christian sect founded approx. 1848 by John Thomas (1805 - 71). Who after studying medicine in London migrated to New York. He joined a local Christian group in New York called "Disciples of Christ" (Christians). He eventually began preaching independently, mainly applying Hebrew prophecy and the book of Revelation to current and future events. The name "Christadelphians" was adopted during the US civil war when they organised formally to object to military service.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The local organisation is called an "ecclesia" not a church, and is the principle unit of church government. There is no general overall organisation for the group. No distinction is made between clergy and laity. Ruling or serving brethren are elected and minister without compensation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The Bible is the only authoritative creed. Membership in the group requires a profession of faith and baptism by immersion. Orthodox views of the Trinity are rejected. The theology is strongly Millennialist. They expect Christ to return and rule the world from Jerusalem for 1000 years, which is a view shared with most Bible based Christian groups.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]There are members in the US, Great Britain, Australia, Canada, Germany and New Zealand, (1960s census).[/SIZE]
Floyd.
[SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]
Floyd.
[SIZE=14pt]From Floyd:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Where the Deity of Christ Jesus is called into question by human agency, the true Christian (Christ-One) must always hold the doubter in a very careful embrace, as the main weapon of the great enemy Satan, is to cast doubt into the minds of all humans regarding the truth and veracity of God’s Word. When one considers the powerful assault on the early church regarding the Deity of Jesus the Christ, and when one sees that the Roman Church had the power to accept or reject that Doctrine, and went on to adopt so much of ancient Babylon’s religious practice; it is easy to see the truth of our Lord’s and the Apostle Paul’s words, that “Satan is the god of this world”! That statement means that Satan has the power and authority at present on earth which almost everybody is oblivious to, which leaves the world’s people at a disadvantage; as they are not able to discern most or any of his actions. That is especially true if they are members of one of the many Sects now abundant including especially the New Age Movement! Satan clearly showed his power and authority when attempting to seduce the newly baptised Jesus in the wilderness (Matt. 4:9); which attempt mirrored his actions in Eden with the first Adam. Jesus had just started His mission on earth as the “second Adam” (1 Cor. 15:22, 45,); but was not going to fail, as the first Adam did so soon! [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The Deity of Jesus Christ[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]
Unitarian will suffice for now.StanJ said:
Whatever I am, the Scripture is being held up by the Father as a testimony against Constantine's religion.
P
1 Peter 1:20 is not difficult to understand Mazda.Madad21 said:1 Peter 1:20
20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
You argument was that he was not manifest but merely "foreordained" which does nothing to prove your point "but was manifest in these last times for you" saying that this would not make sense if Jesus had shown up.
to which I did a crazy unheard of thing and read the entire passage in its context and realised the subject of this particular discourse by Peter was 'how to live as a Child of God'.
Not a history lesson teaching us how many times Jesus appeared before his birth..
This is exactly what I said :-[background=#fcfcfc]What is Peter teaching us here?[/background]
"Foreordained" is proginosko, signifying "to designate beforehand."
From the very beginning, God purposed or designed to provide such a "lamb" (Rev 13:8. Gen 3:15) in order that redemption might be effected. The word "foreordained," therefore, does not signify that Christ pre-existed, but rather that God predetermined that He would provide such a one. The same word is used in regard to His purpose with the saints (Rom 8:29. 1 Pe 1:2).
God determined beforehand what that should be, and from the very beginning, set in motion the means that would bring it to pass. Foreknowledge is the basis of all His dealings with man.
'Before the foundation of the world" - The Greek word rendered "foundation" is katabole. It is derived from the root word ballo "to hurl or cast", and therefore some have rendered katabole as "the disruption". The original "very good" creation was disrupted by sin; its restoration will be by conquest, as David realised and declared in Psa 8:2. This was partially fulfilled in Christ (Heb 2:6-10), who even when facing betrayal and shameful death was confident of his future victory and dominion over all flesh (Joh 16:33; Joh 17:2 and see 1Pe 3:22).
Peter's words in this place teach that before the disruption of the world through sin, God had already made preparation for the coming of one who would redeem His creation from sin and death. Though through foreknowledge He knew that Adam would sin, it was never His intention that His creation would always be subject to sin and death. Hence provision for the redemptive work of Christ was made before sin reared its evil head, before the foundation was laid after it had appeared.
"In these last times"
This expression relates to the last days of Judah's commonwealth then coming to its end. See similar expressions used in Heb 1:1. Heb 9:26. Though the Lord was foreordained from the beginning, his physical manifestation was at the "end of the age" (see Heb 9:26). The word is phaneroo, "to publicly reveal".
The Apostles knowledge nowhere speaks of a pre-existent Christ in his Epistle in fact they all are silent on your belief.
Purity
Thanks for the Arian history lesson purity, I didnt need it.Purity said:
To bad Peter like I have said twice now, wasn't teaching one.
Man....really? :huh:
blessing!!
Nothing Arian about history Mazda...but thankfully it wasn't history according to Constantine.Thanks for the Arian history lesson purity, I didnt need it.
To bad Peter like I have said twice now, wasn't teaching one.
Man....really? :huh:
blessing!!
I rest in the confidence of Peters knowledge of a foreordained Christ and not a pre-existent Lord.
If only you had such passages in your arsenal.
P. ;)
Purity said:
This is what you do purity
1 Peter 1:20
20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
Purity = "See!!!! This proves Jesus didn’t show up before Abraham otherwise he would have said that Jesus appeared to Abraham and how he appeared to bless Hagar and blessed Jacob and warned Balaam and Blah blah blah blah blah."
This is what Christians do
1 Peter 1:13-21
13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; 15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”[c]17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
Christian = "Right so what Peter is saying here is that inlight of our salvation through Jesus Christ we are to present ourselves as holy as our Father is Holy, not conforming to the pattern of this world.
That we are judged without partiality according to our works in sight of the ransom paid through the blood of our Lord who was without blemish and foreordained before the foundations of the world manifest in these last days to be given as Holy Sacrifice whom through his work on the cross and resurrection given glory so that we may now have the hope of salvation through him."
Purity there was a lot of things here Peter didn’t say, should we focus on all those areas too, or do you think we should focus on the gospel message?
Taking lines out of context is a foolish way to understand the gospel.
Instead focus on whats being said in the context of the subject. which is in this case "How we should live as Christians"
its Christianity 101 brother
Madad, your right; context is critical; the way Purity works (and Satan) is to take out of context, and twist to suit his meanings!
[SIZE=24pt]The words of Miles Coverdale eventually gives the start of enlightenment regarding context:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=24pt]"It will greatly help understanding of Scripture to see what is spoken or written, by whom, to whom, with what words, at what time, where, to what intent, with what circumstances, considering what goes before and what follows." [/SIZE]
[SIZE=24pt]He was supremely qualified to make such comment, having translated from the Latin (Jerome,) to the English. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=24pt]Floyd.[/SIZE]
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