QUESTION 1 for YOU - IF YOU BELIEVE JESUS is GOD

[Purity]

Yep..kinda like that angel of light thing Huh? :)

Ya know...........the jw's and us are kind of on the same page...

jw's think we are nuts...we know the jw's are nuts :)

Clouds without rain is what you give us? If the exposition is faulty and doesn't work then show us ;)

 

[RANDOR]

Already have.............many many many times.............................but what I say falls on bad ground......
All the ground the jw's stand on is bad ground............the true word of God that which is spoken is swept up by the the teachings...(satans teachings)
mortal man (russel) and all who trust their souls to a mere man's teachings.

At least we give you clouds..............you bring nothing to us.

God Bless! :)

 

[JonD]

HI. Im trying to get my head around some of the logic here. Are some saying that the angel that John was speaking with in Revelation was Jesus?

 

[StanJ]

Now you have blasphemed the Holy Ghost.

Unless you prove this accusation to them that rule in heaven, you are toast.

You are toast.

Do you know what it means to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? This accusation doesn't look like you do.

 

[Purity]

HI. Im trying to get my head around some of the logic here. Are some saying that the angel that John was speaking with in Revelation was Jesus?

Trinitarians for donkeys years have tried to suggest angels in the OT and NT are Jesus, but I don't think that is the nature of the discussion here. Basically what you have here is a bunch of frustrated Nicean Brethren who cannot provide an ounce of evidence for Jesus being God or that he pre-existed.

But they do try in vain to squeeze out a drop or two from their clouds. ;)

 

[StanJ]

He is sitting now as king-- rev 6--this began the war in heaven--- Jesus( Michael) received his crown. This was the first ride of the white horse.

Jesus is God incarnate, the Word that became flesh. Michael is an angle. Two different beings. Heb 1:4 shows this...
So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
Rev 6 is about the Lamb of God, who is Jesus. NOT Michael.

 

[JonD]

Hello Purity, Iv never met a Trinitarian where I live who believe that angels are Jesus! The only ones who have said this to me are JW's. I did read here though some saying that angels were Jesus and think that comments like that have a huge bearing upon whether Jesus is God in some peoples eyes! In Revelation John goes to bow down and worship the angel but is told not to do so as worship belongs to God alone. We also see numerous other places in the Bible where the same thing happens. God alone is the only One who is to be worshipped. But not once when anyone in the gospels worships Jesus is it forbidden for them to do so!

 

[Purity]

Hello Purity, Iv never met a Trinitarian where I live who believe that angels are Jesus! The only ones who have said this to me are JW's. I did read here though some saying that angels were Jesus and think that comments like that have a huge bearing upon whether Jesus is God in some peoples eyes! In Revelation John goes to bow down and worship the angel but is told not to do so as worship belongs to God alone. We also see numerous other places in the Bible where the same thing happens. God alone is the only One who is to be worshipped. But not once when anyone in the gospels worships Jesus is it forbidden for them to do so!

Hi JonD

I have no problem with worshipping Jesus though I know he is not God...but the Son of God.

John in Rev 22:9 was overcome with a feeling of awe and joy which overwhelmed him. Compare this with Rev 5:4 and what a contrast! taken from misery to joy! Suffering to Glory!

You are correct we must not worship men or angels (Col. 2:18), no matter how brilliantly they might expound the Word, or reveal the mysteries of God. The angel identified himself with the prophets, and appropriately so when the nature of The Rev is concerned. He "kept" the sayings of the book, in that he gave them his close attention. There are some things that even angels do not know (Mark 13:32),
but which they desire to know, and upon which they ponder (1 Pet. 1:12).

"Worship God"—Such adoration as John was about to display should be reserved for God ALONE or the One who manifests Him. See Rev. 19:10.

Honour the Son as one would honour the Father.

Purity

 

[Mr.Bride]

I asked God, about you. God told me that when put to the test you cannot walk your talk.
And He also said you have never stood in His presence.

In fact this is exactly what He had to say about you to me.

Your all talk and then more talk.

I thought that was funny.

Any time you want to match up with me, let me know.

The devil gets his power from the Most High.

Any time you want to match up with me, let me know.

In fact anytime any of you want to match up with me...let me know...here I am.

I walk all my talk...all the time.

No matter what ...no exceptions....no matter what.

Don't know who you think you are but I know who I am....You don't believe Jesus is God...You came at me.. Mrs. Jesus.... You've been deceived..We cannot be deceived.

****So....What did you have in mind??*****

Remember Goliath....Remember David....One stone...Beheaded with his own sword

Bring your god and I'll bring God....Make sure he's awoke. I don't wanna hear nothin' bout "He probably sleep right now"....

 

[findingmyfaith1]

I'll take some jelly for that toast :)

Oh....and by the way.....I have the Holy Ghost.........all you have is what you think you have been taught about the Holy Ghost.

Yep recieved the Holy Ghost lets see..........26 years ago.

Very long story...we won't go into it.

But WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's to bad you won't get the Holy Ghost

But you had better get back to your studies..........study...study....study....

I say NOT only do you not have the Holy Ghost, you do not even know God.

Don't know who you think you are but I know who I am....You don't believe Jesus is God...You came at me.. Mrs. Jesus.... You've been deceived..We cannot be deceived.

****So....What did you have in mind??*****

Remember Goliath....Remember David....One stone...Beheaded with his own sword

Bring your god and I'll bring God....Make sure he's awoke. I don't wanna hear nothin' bout "He probably sleep right now"....

You are another one on here that does not know they do not know. You are very disrespectful. If you
knew God you would know that and have already corrected yourself.

You go back and read all the disrespectful garbage, you have said to me. You do not see me doing that to you now do you?
You do not know the Lord.

​God hates dis-respectfulness.

So do I.

Do not fret when the Lord is willing I am going to go back over all this you all have posted on here...And not only point out but prove what you said is false and point out your out right unabated dis-respectfulness.

Do you know what it means to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? This accusation doesn't look like you do.

In the spirit realm this you have said to me is the same as calling me a liar.
It is also counted as disrespect. And this you have said to me is an accusation accusing me.
But I don't mind.

The easier they are the better I like it.

You have no clue as to what I am even talking about.

Jesus is God incarnate, the Word that became flesh. Michael is an angle. Two different beings. Heb 1:4 shows this...
So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
Rev 6 is about the Lamb of God, who is Jesus. NOT Michael.

There is no such thing as God incarnate.

Someone made that up.

Jesus is not an angel. Someone made that up too.

Don't know who you think you are but I know who I am....You don't believe Jesus is God...You came at me.. Mrs. Jesus.... You've been deceived..We cannot be deceived.

****So....What did you have in mind??*****

Remember Goliath....Remember David....One stone...Beheaded with his own sword

Bring your god and I'll bring God....Make sure he's awoke. I don't wanna hear nothin' bout "He probably sleep right now"....

No one born of God would say this you have said here to me.

They would have more honor and integrity and wisdom from the Spirit of God dwelling in them.

Instead of you all giving me your unproven opinions
and expecting us to believe it as if God said it.

Just tell me you will match up against me, winner takes all.

Show us your walk.

Don't tell us...SHOW US.

YOU say you have the power...SHOW US.

You say you have the Holy Ghost...SHOW US.

LET US SEE IT.

God knows you have told us enough.

lol

lol

lol

I really don't care if someone believes that Jesus is God or Jesus is the arch angel Michael.

I don't even care if they do not pray or do not go to any church or do not read the bible.

What I care about, is that they love me as Jesus loved them.

Because that is going to require they have the Spirit of God.

 

[JonD]

Sorry, I should correct my last post. It is only SDA's who have told me the angels were Jesus. It has been the JW's who have told me He wasn't God. I personally believe Jesus is God. So if as some say Jesus is "not God" then how can one justify worshipping Jesus who they say "is not God" when one admits that worship is for God only? The Bible clearly tells us to worship God alone!

 

[brakelite]

Your lies are only truth to whom believes it.............we see you chose to beleive it. as for me and my house...we will choose the road which the jws say are wrong.
We put our trust in Christ...not on some silly mortal man (russel)............
Our great nation founded on God...is now run by no common sense what so ever....and the jw's are kings at no common sense.

Randor, I dont think Purity is a JW. I suspect a Christadelphian. A unitarian that unlike the JWs, dont accept the pre-existence of Jesus.

Sorry, I should correct my last post. It is only SDA's who have told me the angels were Jesus. It has been the JW's who have told me He wasn't God. I personally believe Jesus is God. So if as some say Jesus is "not God" then how can one justify worshipping Jesus who they say "is not God" when one admits that worship is for God only? The Bible clearly tells us to worship God alone!

If some-one told you that Jesus was an angel, he was not an SDA. They will tell you that Jesus was Michael, but they do not believe Michael is an angel. For SDAs, Michael was the "Angel of the Presence" , Jesus in His pre-existent identity. SDAs constantly affirm the eternal divine attributes of Jesus.

 

[Purity]

Sorry, I should correct my last post. It is only SDA's who have told me the angels were Jesus. It has been the JW's who have told me He wasn't God. I personally believe Jesus is God. So if as some say Jesus is "not God" then how can one justify worshipping Jesus who they say "is not God" when one admits that worship is for God only? The Bible clearly tells us to worship God alone!

Have you considered the subject of divine worship in the Kingdom age? (Zech 6:12,13,15).

The King Priest who is not God?

Have you heard of such a man?

You will not be taught of him by early church fathers for they knew him not or did they aspire to understand him. They presumed in their ignorance deity though the Holy Writ is clear - only One Yahweh who is the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ...

I doubt you know the King Priest who is to come.

You will.

 

[brakelite]

Elohim was there in Gen 1:1-3
Elohim excel in strength and do all that is commanded of them Psa 103:20
Elohim rejoice at the works of God in creation Job 38:7
Elohim is behind every single divine interaction between God and man
Elohim are the heavenly council to which God directs his affairs both in Heaven and Earth Ps 82:1

And what could be said of Moses and the many signs and wonders performed in Israel, all angels - the parting of the sea, the plagues etc all done through angels - the strengthening of Jesus Christ and his resurrection, all through angels.

And when Jesus ascended the throne of Yahweh what did the angels do...Rev 4:10 (If you cannot "see", then 2 Kings 6:17 must apply Brakelite.)

Actually, if you were acutely aware of Rev 4:10 you would see in this something rather precious which casts down Trinitarian dogma!

The highest ranking angels "cast their crowns before the throne" This was both an act of submission and of homage toward Christ, in which the four and twenty elders acknowledge that their victory stems from Christ, as his did from the Father. The angels relinquishing their authority which they previously held before Yahweh is testimony to their acknowledging that a Son of Man made lower (in nature) than the angels has now been elevated ()for the first time) above the angelic order.

In Rev. 3:21, Christ promises the faithful (and us) of Philadelphia that their adversaries will be compelled to "worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee." In doing so, they will acknowledge that the Redeemed are the manifestation of Christ, as Christ is the manifestation of the Father (1 Cor. 11:3). See Rev. 3:21.

Imagine if the 24 elders actually believe Jesus IS God...imagine the irony of even suggesting HE is worthy of anything.

"Saying, Thou art worthy, Ο Lord, to receive glory and honour and power"

The angels understood why Jesus was worthy and it was not on the basis of him being God!!!!

You can keep running from truth but eventually you will be made to see.

P.

Interesting. You recognize that Jesus is worshiped, yet also acknowledge that only God is to be worshiped. Mmmmmm.

And with all the long treatise on angels, you have still failed to adequately explain Hebrews 1:2, (comp. 11:3). Just to remind you, the writer of Hebrews was the Holy Spirit, through a man. So it is the Holy Spirit, God, who is unequivocally stating ( unto the Son ,) Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. (verse 8)

 

[JonD]

I think you have misread my posts. I have been referring to Revelation where John spoke to an angel and some others here say that that angel was Jesus as do SDA's.
Could I ask you Purity, how you would reconcile worshiping Jesus when the Bible clearly states we should only worship God when you say you don't believe Jesus is God but have no problem worshipping Him? How could one admit that God alone is to be worshipped and then worship someone they say "is not God"? Wouldn't that be contradictory to that persons belief?

 

[Purity]

Interesting. You recognize that Jesus is worshiped, yet also acknowledge that only God is to be worshiped. Mmmmmm.

Yes, you seem to keep bumping into that doctrine of God manifestation but never quite grasping its meaning.

Here it is again :)

Consider the up and coming musical festival on Mount Zion, with those precious many who will perform (not less than 144,000 immortals symbolic of course, 12 x 12 innumerable many!) who, like the Imperial President of the Festival, were once dead, but then are living for the aeons; while the listening and delighted audience, marshalled and convened by the King of glory, themselves illustrious and immortal, number "ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands of thousands" (Rev. 5: 11).

How gratified they will be in beholding the Royal Child, whose birth they celebrated over 19 centuries before, enthroned by the Eternal Power, according to the words of Gabriel, in his father David's seat; and instead of a vile clamour for his crucifixion, in the very place where he was condemned and put to death, songs of thanksgiving and praise, ascending in immortal strains to the Deity, from the innumerable multitude of the redeemed.

Christ in their midst!

When it dawns on you Brakelite the moment will be illuminating!

 

[JonD]

I should add too, that recently I heard SDA preacher on radio rattling off how just about every angel mentioned in Revelation was Jesus! True, it was on the 3 Angels Broadcast here in Australia. I was gobsmacked when I heard it.

 

[Purity]

I should add too, that recently I heard SDA preacher on radio rattling off how just about every angel mentioned in Revelation was Jesus! True, it was on the 3 Angels Broadcast here in Australia. I was gobsmacked when I heard it.

If he understood God Manifestation in one way he could say he was right - but in another - wrong.

1:4 Thus he became so far better than the angels as he has inherited a name superior to theirs.

Two words here to trouble you 1. Became 2. Inherited

:)

 

[brakelite]

I should add too, that recently I heard SDA preacher on radio rattling off how just about every angel mentioned in Revelation was Jesus! True, it was on the 3 Angels Broadcast here in Australia. I was gobsmacked when I heard it.

He would not have been saying they were actual angels...he would have been saying that the term, 'angel',(as Messenger) as given in Revelation, is actually referring to Jesus. Not in every case obviously. In saying that he in no wise would be remotely intimating that angels are divne or deity, nor that Jesus is a crerated being.
That said, If Iheard the message, I might turn around and disagree with him. All I am judging by is what I know of SDA doctrine. Doesn't mean that individuals cant be wrong in their understanding of scripture.

Yes, you seem to keep bumping into that doctrine of God manifestation but never quite grasping its meaning.

Here it is again :)

Consider the up and coming musical festival on Mount Zion, with those precious many who will perform (not less than 144,000 immortals symbolic of course, 12 x 12 innumerable many!) who, like the Imperial President of the Festival, were once dead, but then are living for the aeons; while the listening and delighted audience, marshalled and convened by the King of glory, themselves illustrious and immortal, number "ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands of thousands" (Rev. 5: 11).

How gratified they will be in beholding the Royal Child, whose birth they celebrated over 19 centuries before, enthroned by the Eternal Power, according to the words of Gabriel, in his father David's seat; and instead of a vile clamour for his crucifixion, in the very place where he was condemned and put to death, songs of thanksgiving and praise, ascending in immortal strains to the Deity, from the innumerable multitude of the redeemed.

Christ in their midst!

When it dawns on you Brakelite the moment will be illuminating!

Eloquent, even poetic. And still you have failed to render an adequate explanation for the declaration by the Holy Spirit of the creation of all things in the universe of God (including the Sabbath to which He Himself declared He is Lord of) by Jesus.

And I see all too well your misapplied, misunderstood, misapplicated, mismatched, misnomer of "God manifestation". And you are right. It is illuminating. Might I suggest you read Romans 8:8-11.

Can we get back to Hebrews 1:2 please, and Hebrews 11:3?

 

[Forsakenone]

In fact this is exactly what He had to say about you to me.

Your all talk and then more talk.

In fact?
[Matthew 7:23]

So the Holy Ghost said I was nothing but words and no substance huh?
[Matt 24:35 Mark 10:31 Luke 21:33]

While I can't say that God told me anything about you, I know in my spirit that His love for me is no greater than His love for you. But then again, I'm just all talk....