Question for Amill's only

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Randy Kluth

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Randy the scripture below clearly teaches that when Jesus Christ returns, the resurrection takes place, at this time mortal puts on immortality as death is swallowed up in victory (Then Cometh The End)

Randy how do you continue to teach death isn't swallowed up in victory, as you teach a mortal millennial kingdom follows this second coming where mortal humans are dying physical death?

The scripture is simple, clear, and before your eyes, and you will continue to falsely teach contrary to God's words below "Why"?

Once a person is shown biblical truth, and if they teach contrary to truth presented, they become the false teacher and deceiver, it's that simple

1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end
, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
No, I don't believe it's that simple. In my experience, we are too hasty to judge, thinking all people are at the same place of understanding. We all see imperfectly. False teachers are those who have inwardly rejected the truth and wish to pursue their own carnal interests. Believers are often conflicted in their purposes, and do not necessarily brazenly oppose the truth, even when they are promoting something false.

I agree that when Christ comes the saints will put on immortality. But that applies to those who have already received Christ. After Christ comes there will be many people who have not fully heard the Gospel, who will then respond to it and become Christians, just like today. It is not teaching false doctrine to say this or to believe this. It is still the Gospel message of salvation through Christ alone.

Death is "swallowed up in victory" on behalf of those who have been Christians. It is not necessarily a universal statement, a final statement that death has ceased to exist. It has ceased to exist for those who have been trusting in Christ's return. That's my position, based on Rev 20 and also based on the OT Prophets of Israel's restoration, a time when the knowledge of the Lord will be everywhere present throughout the world.
 

Randy Kluth

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My understanding is that most believe the AC and GT already came in the past.
I was raised up in an Amillennial denomination in the Reformed tradition, but never fully investigated the eschatology. I thought it was the only available position at the time. I came to embrace Premill with the Dispensational proliferation of books on endtime fulfillments. I'm no longer a Dispensationalist, but I am clearly now committed to the Premillennial position.

Below shows how Augustine is portrayed as believing in his Amil position, with respect to Rev 20.7. It shows why I'm so conflicted about what Amills believe the "Little Season" is. I've not investigated this article--I'm just using it to show how the Amill position may be perceived.


In Augustine’s view the binding of the devil began as the Church was spreading beyond Judaea, continues now and will last until the end of the age. This is evidenced by the conversion of sinners, the property of the “strong man” of Matt 12 being carried off. What may then be said of the unloosing of the strong man who has been bound? Augustine first suggests that this will mean that during the three and a half years “no one will join the people of Christ”, [43] although some will fall away from the Church. The latter, Augustine is sure, “will not be people belonging to the predestined number of the sons of God”. [44] The elect remain secure.
 

Truth7t7

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Death is "swallowed up in victory" on behalf of those who have been Christians. It is not necessarily a universal statement, a final statement that death has ceased to exist. It has ceased to exist for those who have been trusting in Christ's return. That's my position, based on Rev 20 and also based on the OT Prophets of Israel's restoration, a time when the knowledge of the Lord will be everywhere present throughout the world.
Your claim is "False"

Scripture clearly teaches in verse 26 that the last enemy is death, while verses 52-54 show how and when death is swallowed up in victory at the resurrection (Then Cometh The End)

Randy you bend and twist scripture falsely, you don't want to acknowledge (Then Cometh The End) You don't want to acknowledge that at the resurrection (Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory) you have been shown biblical truth, will you continue to teach contrary to God's words below?

Randy the scripture below clearly teaches that when Jesus Christ returns, the resurrection takes place, at this time mortal puts on immortality as death is swallowed up in victory (Then Cometh The End)

Randy how do you continue to teach death isn't swallowed up in victory, as you teach a mortal millennial kingdom follows this second coming where mortal humans are dying physical death?

The scripture is simple, clear, and before your eyes, and you will continue to falsely teach contrary to God's words below "Why"?

Once a person is shown biblical truth, and if they continue to teach contrary to truth presented, they become the false teacher and deceiver, it's that simple

1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end
, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
 
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WPM

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You'll find no argument from me that the Church Fathers generally held to Replacement Theology. I don't think Paul taught that, but when Israel didn't "pan out," then I think the Church Fathers began to follow Paul's denunciations of Israel under the Law, and went the "2nd Mile" by rejecting any notion of Israel's restoration, since their clinging so strongly to the Law would mean that their restoration would also be a restoration of observance of the Law.

And this is where I disagree with them. I don't think that Israel's restoration would mean a restoration of the observance of the Law. In the last days, final judgment will fall upon Israel for their rejection of Christ for their own cultural form of worship. They will be broken until a more malleable, pliable remnant will emerge and embrace Christ and repentance at his Coming.

Then Israel will be restored among those who embrace Christ, as opposed to a restoration of the Law as a system of worship. They will accept that the temple, the priesthood, and the sacrifices are gone forever, in favor of Christ's one historic sacrifice for the sins of all.

We've visited this enough times that I don't even have to read it. It's just a re-entry of an old conversation. As I've said the "strong man" story had to do will Christ delivering demoniacs, and is relevant with Christ's cross only in the sense it revealed that Christ was the "Strong Man."

The event described in Rev 20 is the fulfillment of what Christ did at the Cross. It will take place by the binding and by the imprisonment of Satan for a thousand years so that a time of peace and Christianity will prevail. I'm afraid we'll have to continue to disagree on this. I understand your position.

Irenaeus was the great champion of early Chiliasm. He probably wrote in the clearest detail and had the greatest influence of all the early Chiliasts. His origins were notable in from Asia Minor. Notwithstanding, he was Bishop of Lyons, Gaul from where he wrote extensively. He was believed to have died around AD 155–156. Like ancient and modern Amillennialists, Irenaeus believed in the current binding of Satan. He believed this happened through the life, death and resurrection of our Lord. He also believed in the destruction of Satan at the second coming. This meant he did not see him arising 1000 years after the second coming and raising up a mammoth insurrection in the next age. This too is in keeping with classic Amil position. Irenaeus was very direct, consistent and bold in his declarations on the binding of Satan.

He declares:

For as it was not possible that the man who had once for all been conquered, and who had been destroyed through disobedience, could reform himself, and obtain the prize of victory; and as it was also impossible that he could attain to salvation who had fallen under the power of sin, - the Son effected both these things, being the Word of God, descending from the Father, becoming incarnate, stooping low, even to death, and consummating the arranged plan of our salvation (Against Heresies Book 3, Chapter 18, 6:2).​

Irenaeus lays out the great assignment that Christ undertook on man’s behalf. He highlights the pitiful condition of man. He simply couldn’t help himself. He was in too depraved a state. He needed someone stronger to liberate him. Christ was indeed a man on a mission coming to rescue man from his own self-destruction. Satan was a distinct obstacle to this assignment. After all, man had given the evil one authority over his life that he did not deserve. So, the devil had to be confronted and overcome on his own playing field. That is what Jesus did:

For He [Jesus] fought and conquered; for He was man contending for the fathers, and through obedience doing away with disobedience completely: for He bound the strong man, and set free the weak, and endowed His own handiwork with salvation, by destroying sin. For He is a most holy and merciful Lord, and loves the human race (Against Heresies Book 3, Chapter 18, 6).​

Irenaeus, here, significantly, links the binding of Satan to Christ “destroying sin.” This of course is a direct reference to the cross-work. The ancient writer saw Christ’s first coming as an overall mission to defeat the wicked one and save men. Both of these go hand-in-hand in the early Chiliast’s assessment of Christ’s earthly ministry. This explains how Calvary is at the core of the early Millennialists’ attitude to the subjugation of the devil. There, Jesus fully overcome sin and death.

Without this transaction the Gentiles would never have been set free. Before the cross the Gentiles were in blind ignorance, deceived by the father of lies. After the resurrection, the Gentiles were no longer deceived as the Gospel light shone throughout the nations. The veil of ignorance was lifted. They are now without excuse. Satan had them hoodwinked. They lay in darkness. He ruled the nations before the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. He had them under his control.

Irenaeus continues:

By means of the second man did He bind the strong man, and spoiled his goods, and abolished death, vivifying that man who had been in a state of death. For at the first Adam became a vessel in his (Satan’s) possession, whom he did also hold under his power, that is, by bringing sin on him iniquitously, and under colour of immortality entailing death upon him. For, while promising that they should be as gods [talking about the lie of Satan in the Garden], which was in no way possible for him to be, he wrought death in them: wherefore he who had led man captive, was justly captured in his turn by God; but man, who had been led captive, was loosed from the bonds of condemnation (Against Heresies Book 3, Chapter 23, 1).​

Irenaeus saw the First Advent as securing the overall defeat of every enemy of God and righteousness. He saw it as a full package. Christ came (on assignment) to undo all the result of the Fall. His life, cross-work and triumphant resurrection was pivotal in defeating our arch-enemy. The binding was not limited to Christ casting out demons, although this was an integral part of His overall mission. The cross and the resurrection was the triumphant apex of His earthly task. This is where sin was fully paid for, death was defeated and Satan was stripped of his then immense power and widespread control.

Ironically, this is the verbiage of Amillennialism. As a result of the First Advent, Satan is shown to be a prisoner – he is a captive. The spiritual prison man was incarcerated in prior to the cross and the chains the evil one had him incapacitated with were in turn placed upon Satan. The boot was on the other foot. The shackles that bound them have now been placed upon Satan. The devil is thus seen as a vanquished foe. Christ’s earthy ministry is seen to loosen what the enemy had afflicted all mankind with. By doing this, he resolved the sin issue, and overcome the death issue (the consequence for sin).

Irenaeus understood the binding of the strong man 2,000 years ago related to the victory Christ won over Satan and Him spiritually establishing God’s Kingdom on the earth and invading the kingdom of darkness with the light of the Gospel and seeing the ignorance banished amongst the Gentiles. Satan can persecute, he can deceive, he can even destroy the body. But he cannot stop the light of God’s truth, (the good news of the kingdom) from going into the nations. He cannot prevent anyone from repenting and confessing Christ. This is completely up to the individual.

How, too, could He have subdued him who was stronger than men, who had not only overcome man, but also retained him under his power, and conquered him who had conquered, while he set free mankind who had been conquered, unless He had been greater than man who had thus been vanquished? But who else is superior to, and more eminent than, that man who was formed after the likeness of God, except the Son of God, after whose image man was created? And for this reason He did in these last days exhibit the similitude; [for] the Son of God was made man, assuming the ancient production [of His hands] into His own nature, as I have shown in the immediately preceding book (Against Heresies Book 4, Chapter 33:4).​

Irenaeus links the subduing of Satan to Christ's death 2000 years ago. The enemy is shown here to be currently vanquished. This is the opposite of Premil theology. What is more: he relates the binding of Satan at the First Advent to “these last days” – showing the reader that they had already arrived.
 
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Randy Kluth

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Your claim is "False"

Scripture clearly teaches in verse 26 that the last enemy is death, while verses 52-54 show how and when death is swallowed up in victory at the resurrection (Then Cometh The End)
Since you continue to repeat your same arguments, perhaps you don't understand my argument? I'm saying that the defeat of death is not an exhaustive defeat of death such as death ceasing to exist for all of mankind in a single instance. I'm saying that the statement declares a major change in "death" for *some,* namely for those who at Christ's Return obtain immortality.

That has never happened before for mankind, where Death has lost its mortal effect for anybody. When someone obtains immortality after having been mortal, it means that "death is swallowed up in victory." This is true even if some mortals continue to exist as such, and have yet to experience this total victory over Death.

Repeating your same argument will not answer this question. But your wish apparently to just repeat your argument without addressing the point I'm making renders your posts of no value on this subject. It ceases to be conversation, but rather an "indoctrination" on your part--perhaps even a kind of "bullying."

It's like screaming to get your way. And if you understand arguments at all, they require listening to your opponent and directing your arguments to their "positions," rather than just trying to sweep them away by force and repetition.

Let me give you an example. If I say that for Israel the people have finally obtained victory in their land inheritance such that their enemies will never again be able to drive them from their land, I'm suggesting a major change--a major kind of victory that they've never experienced before.

However, it does not mean that this kind of "Victory" assures all nations and all peoples that they will also experience final deliverance in their lands from deportation and national failure. It is specifically a Victory that takes place for Israel only in that specific circumstance.

As I've said many times, it is *context* that is king, and the thing that determines what this "Victory" would mean. The same is true for the Victory over Death. If it is to be applied immediately and exhaustively for *everybody,* it would have said such. But the context does not indicate that--only that a major decisive victory over Death has taken place in one particular context, namely when Christ comes back *for his Church.*
 

Randy Kluth

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Irenaeus was the great champion of early Chiliasm. He probably wrote in the clearest detail and had the greatest influence of all the early Chiliasts. His origins were notable in from Asia Minor. Notwithstanding, he was Bishop of Lyons, Gaul from where he wrote extensively. He was believed to have died around AD 155–156. Like ancient and modern Amillennialists, Irenaeus believed in the current binding of Satan. He believed this happened through the life, death and resurrection of our Lord. He also believed in the destruction of Satan at the second coming. This meant he did not see him arising 1000 years after the second coming and raising up a mammoth insurrection in the next age. This too is in keeping with classic Amil position. Irenaeus was very direct, consistent and bold in his declarations on the binding of Satan.

He declares:

For as it was not possible that the man who had once for all been conquered, and who had been destroyed through disobedience, could reform himself, and obtain the prize of victory; and as it was also impossible that he could attain to salvation who had fallen under the power of sin, - the Son effected both these things, being the Word of God, descending from the Father, becoming incarnate, stooping low, even to death, and consummating the arranged plan of our salvation (Against Heresies Book 3, Chapter 18, 6:2).​

Irenaeus lays out the great assignment that Christ undertook on man’s behalf. He highlights the pitiful condition of man. He simply couldn’t help himself. He was in too depraved a state. He needed someone stronger to liberate him. Christ was indeed a man on a mission coming to rescue man from his own self-destruction. Satan was a distinct obstacle to this assignment. After all, man had given the evil one authority over his life that he did not deserve. So, the devil had to be confronted and overcome on his own playing field. That is what Jesus did:

For He [Jesus] fought and conquered; for He was man contending for the fathers, and through obedience doing away with disobedience completely: for He bound the strong man, and set free the weak, and endowed His own handiwork with salvation, by destroying sin. For He is a most holy and merciful Lord, and loves the human race (Against Heresies Book 3, Chapter 18, 6).​

Irenaeus, here, significantly, links the binding of Satan to Christ “destroying sin.” This of course is a direct reference to the cross-work. The ancient writer saw Christ’s first coming as an overall mission to defeat the wicked one and save men. Both of these go hand-in-hand in the early Chiliast’s assessment of Christ’s earthly ministry. This explains how Calvary is at the core of the early Millennialists’ attitude to the subjugation of the devil. There, Jesus fully overcome sin and death.

Without this transaction the Gentiles would never have been set free. Before the cross the Gentiles were in blind ignorance, deceived by the father of lies. After the resurrection, the Gentiles were no longer deceived as the Gospel light shone throughout the nations. The veil of ignorance was lifted. They are now without excuse. Satan had them hoodwinked. They lay in darkness. He ruled the nations before the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. He had them under his control.

Irenaeus continues:

By means of the second man did He bind the strong man, and spoiled his goods, and abolished death, vivifying that man who had been in a state of death. For at the first Adam became a vessel in his (Satan’s) possession, whom he did also hold under his power, that is, by bringing sin on him iniquitously, and under colour of immortality entailing death upon him. For, while promising that they should be as gods [talking about the lie of Satan in the Garden], which was in no way possible for him to be, he wrought death in them: wherefore he who had led man captive, was justly captured in his turn by God; but man, who had been led captive, was loosed from the bonds of condemnation (Against Heresies Book 3, Chapter 23, 1).​

Irenaeus saw the First Advent as securing the overall defeat of every enemy of God and righteousness. He saw it as a full package. Christ came (on assignment) to undo all the result of the Fall. His life, cross-work and triumphant resurrection was pivotal in defeating our arch-enemy. The binding was not limited to Christ casting out demons, although this was an integral part of His overall mission. The cross and the resurrection was the triumphant apex of His earthly task. This is where sin was fully paid for, death was defeated and Satan was stripped of his then immense power and widespread control.

Ironically, this is the verbiage of Amillennialism. As a result of the First Advent, Satan is shown to be a prisoner – he is a captive. The spiritual prison man was incarcerated in prior to the cross and the chains the evil one had him incapacitated with were in turn placed upon Satan. The boot was on the other foot. The shackles that bound them have now been placed upon Satan. The devil is thus seen as a vanquished foe. Christ’s earthy ministry is seen to loosen what the enemy had afflicted all mankind with. By doing this, he resolved the sin issue, and overcome the death issue (the consequence for sin).

Irenaeus understood the binding of the strong man 2,000 years ago related to the victory Christ won over Satan and Him spiritually establishing God’s Kingdom on the earth and invading the kingdom of darkness with the light of the Gospel and seeing the ignorance banished amongst the Gentiles. Satan can persecute, he can deceive, he can even destroy the body. But he cannot stop the light of God’s truth, (the good news of the kingdom) from going into the nations. He cannot prevent anyone from repenting and confessing Christ. This is completely up to the individual.

How, too, could He have subdued him who was stronger than men, who had not only overcome man, but also retained him under his power, and conquered him who had conquered, while he set free mankind who had been conquered, unless He had been greater than man who had thus been vanquished? But who else is superior to, and more eminent than, that man who was formed after the likeness of God, except the Son of God, after whose image man was created? And for this reason He did in these last days exhibit the similitude; [for] the Son of God was made man, assuming the ancient production [of His hands] into His own nature, as I have shown in the immediately preceding book (Against Heresies Book 4, Chapter 33:4).​

Irenaeus links the subduing of Satan to Christ's death 2000 years ago. The enemy is shown here to be currently vanquished. This is the opposite of Premil theology. What is more: he relates the binding of Satan at the First Advent to “these last days” – showing the reader that they had already arrived.
No, what you're describing is basic Reformation Theology and Soteriology, which indicated that our Salvation is based on the work of Christ alone, who is the "Stronger" Man! It is a belief *shared* by both Premills and Amills, who both believe in the Salvation of believers by Christ alone.

Irenaeus is just detailing the same--not addressing whether the "Strong Man" story has application *only* at the Cross, or at the end of the NT Age, as well. In fact, we know he believed in a future Millennium, which suggests he believed that Satan is bound and incarcerated just prior to the initiation of the Millennial Age.

But your rendition of Reformation Theology is fairly well put, and I of course would have to agree. I just don't agree it addresses the argument as to whether the Strong Man story applies *as an event* to Christ's Return, or not. In principle, Satan was indeed defeated at the Cross. But according to the Scriptures, Satan is still loose and ruling in the heavens over this earth.
 

WPM

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No, what you're describing is basic Reformation Theology and Soteriology, which indicated that our Salvation is based on the work of Christ alone, who is the "Stronger" Man! It is a belief *shared* by both Premills and Amills, who both believe in the Salvation of believers by Christ alone.

Irenaeus is just detailing the same--not addressing whether the "Strong Man" story has application *only* at the Cross, or at the end of the NT Age, as well. In fact, we know he believed in a future Millennium, which suggests he believed that Satan is bound and incarcerated just prior to the initiation of the Millennial Age.

But your rendition of Reformation Theology is fairly well put, and I of course would have to agree. I just don't agree it addresses the argument as to whether the Strong Man story applies *as an event* to Christ's Return, or not. In principle, Satan was indeed defeated at the Cross. But according to the Scriptures, Satan is still loose and ruling in the heavens over this earth.

Irenaeus repeatedly teaches in his writings that Satan was bound at the First Advent.

[W]hen He spoke of the devil as strong, not absolutely so, but as in comparison with us, the Lord showed Himself under every aspect and truly to be the strong man, saying that one can in no other way “spoil the goods of a strong man, if he do not first bind the strong man himself, and then he will spoil his house.” Now we were the vessels and the house of this [strong man] when we were in a state of apostasy; for he put us to whatever use he pleased, and the unclean spirit dwelt within us. For he was not strong, as opposed to Him who bound him, and spoiled his house; but as against those persons who were his tools, inasmuch as he caused their thought to wander away from God: these did the Lord snatch from his grasp. As also Jeremiah declares, “The Lord hath redeemed Jacob, and has snatched him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.” If, then, he had not pointed out Him who binds and spoils his goods, but had merely spoken of him as being strong, the strong man should have been unconquered (Against Heresies Book 4, Chapter 8).​

The continuous message from Irenaeus is that Satan is a defeated foe that has been stripped of his previous power and influence through his spiritual binding in spiritual chains. It is equally that the redeemed have been fully rescued from the clutches and influence of the wicked one. As a result, he has no ability to stop the advance of the kingdom of God from being completed, though he tries with all his might.

This teaching is consistent with the inspired text where the Lord identifies the casting out of devils, and the resulting liberating of souls, with the actual binding of the strong man. Jesus in turn presents this as proof that Satan is curbed through the presence and victorious function of the kingdom of God. Christ was specifically referring to Satan here (the strong man) and his demonic kingdom, and expressly connects his binding with the manifestation of the kingdom of God during His earthly ministry. The subjugating of devils was proof of the spiritual restraint of the evil one. Satan could not prevent this. Satan could not overcome those who had been rescued by Christ.

The devil was subject to the purposes of God and hurt by the spiritual advance of the kingdom of God. This kingdom is still alive and active today. Souls are still being marvelously delivered from the power of Satan. The binding of the strong man continues today wherever the Gospel prevails. The binding of Satan and the spoiling of his house were globalized to relate to mankind.

[T]he law does indeed declare the Word of God from the Father; and the apostate angel of God is destroyed by its voice, being exposed in his true colours, and vanquished by the Son of man keeping the commandment of God. For as in the beginning he enticed man to transgress his Maker’s law, and thereby got him into his power; yet his power consists in transgression and apostasy, and with these he bound man [to himself]; so again, on the other hand, it was necessary that through man himself he should, when conquered, be bound with the same chains with which he had bound man, in order that man, being set free, might return to his Lord, leaving to him (Satan) those bonds by which he himself had been fettered, that is, sin. For when Satan is bound, man is set free; since “none can enter a strong man’s house and spoil his goods, unless he first bind the strong man himself.” The Lord therefore exposes him as speaking contrary to the word of that God who made all things, and subdues him by means of the commandment. Now the law is the commandment of God. The Man proves him to be a fugitive from and a transgressor of the law, an apostate also from God. After [the Man had done this], the Word bound him securely as a fugitive from Himself, and made spoil of his goods – namely, those men whom he held in bondage, and whom he unjustly used for his own purposes. And justly indeed is he led captive, who had led men unjustly into bondage; while man, who had been led captive in times past, was rescued from the grasp of his possessor (Against Heresies Book 5, Chapter 21, 3).​

Irenaeus concludes by stressing the grounds of Satan’s defeat – the perfect obedience of Christ as our substitute in fulfilling the Law. He shows: through Christ’s perfect submission to the Law, through His substitutionary work, He totally removed our condemnation. As the expressed manifestation of the Word and every promise contained within it, Christ came to destroy the works of darkness. A lot of Christians overlook the fact that Calvary would have been ineffective if our Lord hadn’t been a perfect sinless sacrifice. Christ had to meet every demand of the Law. No ordinary mortal man could achieve that. That is why the Lord had to take upon Himself human form and fulfil every minute detail of the Law on his behalf. In doing so He destroyed the claim that Satan had over all mankind.

He explains that the chains that weighed down the people of God of all nations since the Fall have now been placed upon Satan thus curtailing or binding his power. Gentiles have been liberated by the substitutionary work of Christ in living the life they could never live and paying the debt they could never pay. In life and death Jesus was that perfect representative. Those who would put their personal trust in Christ and His finished work at the cross enter into the spiritual benefits of what He secured for them through Calvary. By faith they appropriate victory over sin, death and eternal damnation. By faith they overcome the devil. Whilst man cannot overcome the devil on his own merits, Satan is defeated through our federal head – Jesus Christ – who took the place and penalty of the believer at the cross.

Obviously, the bonds Irenaeus speaks of are not physical chains, clearly, this is not a literal physical prison. Satan’s control was demolished everywhere the kingdom triumphed - in the case of individuals, nations and peoples.

Then in the Gospel, casting down the apostasy by means of these expressions, He did both overcome the strong man by His Father's voice, and He acknowledges the commandment of the law to express His own sentiments, when He says, You shall not tempt the Lord your God. For He did not confound the adversary by the saying of any other, but by that belonging to His own Father, and thus overcame the strong man (Against Heresies Book 5, Chapter 22, 1).​

Every single reference to the binding of Satan here relates to the defeat of Satan through Christ’s earthly assignment and the taking back of what Adam surrendered in the Fall. Satan is therefore already “overcome” according to Irenaeus.
 

Truth7t7

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Since you continue to repeat your same arguments, perhaps you don't understand my argument? I'm saying that the defeat of death is not an exhaustive defeat of death such as death ceasing to exist for all of mankind in a single instance. I'm saying that the statement declares a major change in "death" for *some,* namely for those who at Christ's Return obtain immortality.

That has never happened before for mankind, where Death has lost its mortal effect for anybody. When someone obtains immortality after having been mortal, it means that "death is swallowed up in victory." This is true even if some mortals continue to exist as such, and have yet to experience this total victory over Death.

Repeating your same argument will not answer this question. But your wish apparently to just repeat your argument without addressing the point I'm making renders your posts of no value on this subject. It ceases to be conversation, but rather an "indoctrination" on your part--perhaps even a kind of "bullying."

It's like screaming to get your way. And if you understand arguments at all, they require listening to your opponent and directing your arguments to their "positions," rather than just trying to sweep them away by force and repetition.

Let me give you an example. If I say that for Israel the people have finally obtained victory in their land inheritance such that their enemies will never again be able to drive them from their land, I'm suggesting a major change--a major kind of victory that they've never experienced before.

However, it does not mean that this kind of "Victory" assures all nations and all peoples that they will also experience final deliverance in their lands from deportation and national failure. It is specifically a Victory that takes place for Israel only in that specific circumstance.

As I've said many times, it is *context* that is king, and the thing that determines what this "Victory" would mean. The same is true for the Victory over Death. If it is to be applied immediately and exhaustively for *everybody,* it would have said such. But the context does not indicate that--only that a major decisive victory over Death has taken place in one particular context, namely when Christ comes back *for his Church.*
I fully understand your "False Teaching"

Scripture clearly teaches in verse 26 that the last enemy is death, while verses 52-54 show how and when death is swallowed up in victory at the resurrection (Then Cometh The End)

Randy you bend and twist scripture falsely, you don't want to acknowledge (Then Cometh The End) You don't want to acknowledge that at the resurrection (Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory) you have been shown biblical truth, will you continue to teach contrary to God's words below?

Randy the scripture below clearly teaches that when Jesus Christ returns, the resurrection takes place, at this time mortal puts on immortality as death is swallowed up in victory (Then Cometh The End)

Randy how do you continue to teach death isn't swallowed up in victory, as you teach a mortal millennial kingdom follows this second coming where mortal humans are dying physical death?

The scripture is simple, clear, and before your eyes, and you will continue to falsely teach contrary to God's words below "Why"?

Once a person is shown biblical truth, and if they continue to teach contrary to truth presented, they become the false teacher and deceiver, it's that simple

1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end
, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
 

Davy

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Imprisonment and chains are constantly used in Scripture to describe spiritual restraint. This is seen in how the Holy Spirit depicts the wicked. For example, Satan is presented in Scripture as imprisoning his followers and refusing to release them from his spiritual prison. The Gentiles are repeatedly depicted in the OT as imprisoned and being in chains. We see this is Lamentations 3:33-34, Psalm 68:6, 79:10-11, 102:19-20, 107:8-16, 146:7-8, Isaiah 14:12-17, 42:6-7, 49:8-9, 58:6-12, 60:1-3, 61:1 and 58:6-12.

So, were the unsaved Gentiles literal "prisoners" walking about in this world in literal physical "chains" confined to a literal physical "prison" before the cross?
So you're asking if the "spirits in prison" per 1 Peter 3 were actually in a heavenly prison? What does the following show?

Isa 42:6-7
6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes,
to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
KJV

God's Word does not require that everything written in it has to FIT our HUMAN LOGIC. We are asked to believe or not believe. Doubt will always keep God's Mysteries of the Kingdom at bay.

Premillennialists have little difficulty accepting the spiritual reality that the wicked today are bound by spiritual chains of sin and are imprisoned by their own lusts in Satan’s prison and yet are able to freely operate physically on this earth. One wonders why they should then struggle with the concept of the spiritual binding of spiritual beings. Why would they dismiss the fact that the kingdom of darkness has been placed in such chains since the first advent?
That's a load of bull. The "spirits in prison" per 1 Peter 3 and the 'dead' which The Gospel was preached to so they might live according to God in the spirit is a literal reality, and not just some philosophical supposition that you are spewing that comes out of nowhere.

When we die, 'we', our spirit, our person, does NOT die. I can see you are just another that has succumbed to the Jew's religion, for they are the ones that are behind the 'asleep in the ground' theory. Our spirit (with soul) goes back to God in Heaven when we die, not in the grave in the ground. And our soul is NOT made up of fleshy matter. The Jews wrongly believe that the soul dies with the flesh, because they think God formed the soul with the flesh. They don't understand that "breath" is not about flesh.


Imprisonment and chains are constantly used in Scripture to describe spiritual restraint. This is seen in how the Holy Spirit depicts the wicked. For example, Satan is presented in Scripture as imprisoning his followers and refusing to release them from his spiritual prison.

OT evidence of the figurative usage of chains and prison

Psalms 79:10-11 declares, “Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is their God? let him be known among the heathen in our sight by the revenging of the blood of thy servants which is shed. Let the sighing of the prisoner come before thee; according to the greatness of thy power preserve thou those that are appointed to die.”

Were all the heathen literal prisoners? Of course not!
You've already beat that horse to death and got nowhere.


Did this indicate they were immobile? Did this mean they could not kill, steal and destroy? Of course not!

Psalms 102:19-20 says, “For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the LORD behold the earth; To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death.”

Is the Psalmist talking about literal prisoners? Of course not!
Yeah, that's about LITERAL PRISONERS who are appointed to death. Have you never read...

Isa 61:1
61 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives,
and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
KJV

That goes with the Isaiah 42:7 prophecy of The Gospel being preached to the "spirits in prison", and Jesus letting out those who believed.
 

WPM

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So you're asking if the "spirits in prison" per 1 Peter 3 were actually in a heavenly prison? What does the following show?

Isa 42:6-7
6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes,
to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
KJV

God's Word does not require that everything written in it has to FIT our HUMAN LOGIC. We are asked to believe or not believe. Doubt will always keep God's Mysteries of the Kingdom at bay.


That's a load of bull. The "spirits in prison" per 1 Peter 3 and the 'dead' which The Gospel was preached to so they might live according to God in the spirit is a literal reality, and not just some philosophical supposition that you are spewing that comes out of nowhere.

When we die, 'we', our spirit, our person, does NOT die. I can see you are just another that has succumbed to the Jew's religion, for they are the ones that are behind the 'asleep in the ground' theory. Our spirit (with soul) goes back to God in Heaven when we die, not in the grave in the ground. And our soul is NOT made up of fleshy matter. The Jews wrongly believe that the soul dies with the flesh, because they think God formed the soul with the flesh. They don't understand that "breath" is not about flesh.

You've already beat that horse to death and got nowhere.



Yeah, that's about LITERAL PRISONERS who are appointed to death. Have you never read...

Isa 61:1
61 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives,
and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
KJV

That goes with the Isaiah 42:7 prophecy of The Gospel being preached to the "spirits in prison", and Jesus letting out those who believed.

Where did I say they were "in a heavenly prison"? Please address the argument rather than what you wrongly imagine i am saying. Where does it say that the spirits in prison per 1 Peter 3 and the dead which had the Gospel preached to them are in the same place?

You are totally missing (or avoiding) my point. My argument related to living people on earth in a prison and in chains yet have movement and relative freedom on earth. It is talking about the liberating power of God in salvation to free one from spiritual chains and a spiritual prison. Most objective Christians grasp that.
 

Davy

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You'll find no argument from me that the Church Fathers generally held to Replacement Theology. I don't think Paul taught that, but when Israel didn't "pan out," then I think the Church Fathers began to follow Paul's denunciations of Israel under the Law, and went the "2nd Mile" by rejecting any notion of Israel's restoration, since their clinging so strongly to the Law would mean that their restoration would also be a restoration of observance of the Law.

And this is where I disagree with them. I don't think that Israel's restoration would mean a restoration of the observance of the Law. In the last days, final judgment will fall upon Israel for their rejection of Christ for their own cultural form of worship. They will be broken until a more malleable, pliable remnant will emerge and embrace Christ and repentance at his Coming.

Then Israel will be restored among those who embrace Christ, as opposed to a restoration of the Law as a system of worship. They will accept that the temple, the priesthood, and the sacrifices are gone forever, in favor of Christ's one historic sacrifice for the sins of all.

We've visited this enough times that I don't even have to read it. It's just a re-entry of an old conversation. As I've said the "strong man" story had to do will Christ delivering demoniacs, and is relevant with Christ's cross only in the sense it revealed that Christ was the "Strong Man."

The event described in Rev 20 is the fulfillment of what Christ did at the Cross. It will take place by the binding and by the imprisonment of Satan for a thousand years so that a time of peace and Christianity will prevail. I'm afraid we'll have to continue to disagree on this. I understand your position.

Just as it is with many today, those Church fathers just did not understand God's prophecies about Israel and its connection in The Gospel of Jesus Christ. For many brethren in Christ, they won't understand this either until Lord Jesus returns.

God scattered the ten tribes of Israel first out of the holy land, and they mainly migrated from their Assyria captivity to Asia Minor and Europe to become the western Christian nations. The ten lost tribes lost their heritage as part of old Israel, this God showed would happen per His prophet Hosea. But the "house of Judah" (Jews) did not lose their heritage as Israel. The problem is that most are wrongly taught that only Jews represent Israel, when the ten tribes actually made up the majority of the children of Israel.

So to the world, and to the Jews, the ten lost tribes are lost, some even thinking they don't exist anymore, which is untrue. God knows where He scattered the ten tribes, and He has promised to gather them in final.

When Jesus returns, the whole world will discover that the ten lost tribes of Israel were the main peoples that migrated to the West and founded the Christian nations along with the believing Gentiles, after their period of having fallen into Baal worship.
 

Randy Kluth

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Just as it is with many today, those Church fathers just did not understand God's prophecies about Israel and its connection in The Gospel of Jesus Christ. For many brethren in Christ, they won't understand this either until Lord Jesus returns.

God scattered the ten tribes of Israel first out of the holy land, and they mainly migrated from their Assyria captivity to Asia Minor and Europe to become the western Christian nations. The ten lost tribes lost their heritage as part of old Israel, this God showed would happen per His prophet Hosea. But the "house of Judah" (Jews) did not lose their heritage as Israel. The problem is that most are wrongly taught that only Jews represent Israel, when the ten tribes actually made up the majority of the children of Israel.

So to the world, and to the Jews, the ten lost tribes are lost, some even thinking they don't exist anymore, which is untrue. God knows where He scattered the ten tribes, and He has promised to gather them in final.

When Jesus returns, the whole world will discover that the ten lost tribes of Israel were the main peoples that migrated to the West and founded the Christian nations along with the believing Gentiles, after their period of having fallen into Baal worship.
I've had your position for years, but do so no longer--that the 10 tribes would be restored. I've had to submit to the reality that the 10 northern tribes really were "lost." God judged them for rejecting worship in Jerusalem, for choosing other gods in the northern kingdom of Israel. Just my opinion, brother. I have no hostility towards your position since I also held it for a long time, though I didn't think the 10 lost tribes were the W. Europeans.

There really is no cultural basis for seeing W. Europeans as Semitic peoples. They are Caucasians, or Indo-Europeans--not Semitic peoples. And as Jews themselves admit, the 10 lost tribes were in fact "lost."

The big problem I had was that God promised a full restoration of *all* 12 tribes, as indicated in Rev 7 and 14. But I've come a ways from how I look at that now.

I see the use of "12 tribes" in those passages as an indication of the *origins of the Jewish people,* and no longer as a present reality. God was, I think, pointing out that all 12 tribes have been incorporated into a single Jewish People, even as God originally promised Abraham a single Israel, and not a divided set of tribes. The 12 tribes were always meant to be the building blocks leading to a united Israeli nation.

As a matter of fact, in the time of the divided kingdoms, many from the northern tribes ventured south to worship God in Jerusalem. And so, what became the "Jewish People" at that time did come to represent all 12 tribes, even though the official form of the 10 tribes in the north vanished.

But yes, the Church Fathers gave up believing in the Hope of the Jewish People, even though it was promised many times in the OT Scriptures. They simply reinterpreted it, much as Sarah re-interpreted God's promise to her husband Abraham that he would have a son through her. She decided it must actually be "for her through Hagar." ;)

It's difficult to believe in God's grace, because it transcends anything we know as finite, fallen human beings. But over the course of history, God has shown His faithfulness to Abraham by restoring the Israeli nation. And I believe He will have a Christian nation in that land, if we just show enough patience to believe it.

Incidentally, Europeans do not require Jewish DNA to be "God's People." God chose the Europeans in the same way He chose the Jewish People. He just did. He chooses nations, and He also chooses remnants of people in nations that He does not choose, due to their unwillingness to accept this call.

Whether we are Jewish or whether we're European, we should embrace our national calling. And if our nation is not Christian or has lost its Christianity we should praise God that *we* have been called as a witness to our own people and nation. That way there may be many more.
 
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Timtofly

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Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21 comes after 20.
You are placing it after 19 and completely dissolving chapter 20 from existence.

There is a new heaven and earth to live on, because the heavens are dissolved at the 6th Seal and there are still the Trumpets and Thunders, not to mention Satan's 42 months after the 6th Seal is opened. They don't happen on Mars. Besides according to you the whole universe dissappears and not a new one; just an earth and heaven. No mention of stars or planets at all, not even the sun is restored, in your scenario.
 

Davy

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I've had your position for years, but do so no longer--that the 10 tribes would be restored. I've had to submit to the reality that the 10 northern tribes really were "lost." God judged them for rejecting worship in Jerusalem, for choosing other gods in the northern kingdom of Israel. Just my opinion, brother.
Then you have left God's Word in favor of your own ideas, for there are quite a few Scriptures involving the gathering of the ten lost tribes. Here's one you obviously have not thought about...

Matt 19:27-28
27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me,
in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
KJV

How's His Apostles going to sit upon those 12 thrones of the 12 tribes of Israel if they aren't gathered like that shows? Like I said, you have left God's Word in favor of your own.

I have no hostility towards your position since I also held it for a long time, though I didn't think the 10 lost tribes were the W. Europeans.

That's a straw man. Listen to yourself. "Just because Randy doesn't have hostility to a Biblical position that means it is untrue!"

Sorry brother, but you are just spewing your doubt, not that you ever believed what I've been talking about which is written in God's Word. You never have believed it because you don't understand the Scriptures about it, so let's tell the truth about that now.

There really is no cultural basis for seeing W. Europeans as Semitic peoples. They are Caucasians, or Indo-Europeans--not Semitic peoples. And as Jews themselves admit, the 10 lost tribes were in fact "lost."
You don't even realize what the word Semitic means, do you. It simply means those who descended from Noah's son Shem. Somewhere they just dropped the 'h'. And the Caucasian peoples got that name because they were the group of Cimmerians that crossed the Caucasus mountains above the Black Sea and migrated into Europe. The Assyrian tablets give the name Khumri for king Omri of the house of Israel (ten tribes), and that is one of the names where the name Cimmerian was derived. The tribal chieftans carved on the Behistun rock in northern Iraq have Caucasian features by the way.

And the ten lost tribes are... lost... to the Jews, because God scattered the ten tribes first with only the Jews left in the holy land at Judea, and then the FALSE JEWS took up 'me only Israel' ownership as if they only were ever the seed of Israel which is a lie still pushed by them to this day.

Yet the Jewish historian Josephus knew where the ten tribes were in his day around 100 A.D., because he said they were still beyond Euphrates and were a great number of people, too many to be counted.

The big problem I had was that God promised a full restoration of *all* 12 tribes, as indicated in Rev 7 and 14. But I've come a ways from how I look at that now.
Like I said, you've left Bible Scripture for something else.

Even Genesis 49 is Bible prophecy from God through Jacob about ALL 12 TRIBES as to what would befall them in the latter days...

Gen 49:1
49 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.
KJV

Amos 9:9
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
KJV


After God split old Israel into 2 separate kingdoms in Rehoboam's day, the "house of Israel" became the name ONLY for the ten northern tribe "kingdom of Israel". (see 1 Kings 11 forward)


Ezek 37:15-22
15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

16 Moreover, thou son of man,
take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:

17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, "Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?"

19 Say unto them, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all:
and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
KJV

Continuing to read there in Ezekiel 37 reveals David as their king over them again, and they shall all have one shepherd (Jesus). THAT HAS NEVER HAPPENED YET, but it will at Christ's coming.

So I'm sorry Randy, you are only making yourself look silly by rejecting Scripture in God's Word about His future gathering of the ten tribes of the house of Israel that are not really lost to Him at all. (And I thought this was a Bible-believing forum.)
 

Davy

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Where did I say they were "in a heavenly prison"? Please address the argument rather than what you wrongly imagine i am saying. Where does it say that the spirits in prison per 1 Peter 3 and the dead which had the Gospel preached to them are in the same place?

You are totally missing (or avoiding) my point. My argument related to living people on earth in a prison and in chains yet have movement and relative freedom on earth. It is talking about the liberating power of God in salvation to free one from spiritual chains and a spiritual prison. Most objective Christians grasp that.

Wait a minute, so you are NOT able to understand multiple Scripture Witnesses in God's Word that do not... occur in the same Chapter???

You bet the 1 Peter 4:5-6 Scripture is about Jesus preaching The Gospel to the "spirits in prison" of 1 Peter 3...

1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For, for this cause was
the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV

1 Peter 3:18-19
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19
By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 9
KJV


Looks like YOU NEED SOME DIRECTION as to what the REAL SUBJECT is about. (And I thought this was a Bible-believing forum.)
 

WPM

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Wait a minute, so you are NOT able to understand multiple Scripture Witnesses in God's Word that do not... occur in the same Chapter???

You bet the 1 Peter 4:5-6 Scripture is about Jesus preaching The Gospel to the "spirits in prison" of 1 Peter 3...

1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For, for this cause was
the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV

1 Peter 3:18-19
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19
By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 9
KJV


Looks like YOU NEED SOME DIRECTION as to what the REAL SUBJECT is about. (And I thought this was a Bible-believing forum.)

You are totally missing the point. I am not arguing against the reality of the wicked in hell now being in a prison. I am trying to show you a truth about the wicked in life being currently bound by spiritual chains in a spiritual prison.

Most objective Christians accept that. Do you deny that?
 

Randy Kluth

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Then you have left God's Word in favor of your own ideas, for there are quite a few Scriptures involving the gathering of the ten lost tribes. Here's one you obviously have not thought about...

Matt 19:27-28
27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me,
in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
KJV

How's His Apostles going to sit upon those 12 thrones of the 12 tribes of Israel if they aren't gathered like that shows? Like I said, you have left God's Word in favor of your own.



That's a straw man. Listen to yourself. "Just because Randy doesn't have hostility to a Biblical position that means it is untrue!"

Sorry brother, but you are just spewing your doubt, not that you ever believed what I've been talking about which is written in God's Word. You never have believed it because you don't understand the Scriptures about it, so let's tell the truth about that now.


You don't even realize what the word Semitic means, do you. It simply means those who descended from Noah's son Shem. Somewhere they just dropped the 'h'. And the Caucasian peoples got that name because they were the group of Cimmerians that crossed the Caucasus mountains above the Black Sea and migrated into Europe. The Assyrian tablets give the name Khumri for king Omri of the house of Israel (ten tribes), and that is one of the names where the name Cimmerian was derived. The tribal chieftans carved on the Behistun rock in northern Iraq have Caucasian features by the way.

And the ten lost tribes are... lost... to the Jews, because God scattered the ten tribes first with only the Jews left in the holy land at Judea, and then the FALSE JEWS took up 'me only Israel' ownership as if they only were ever the seed of Israel which is a lie still pushed by them to this day.

Yet the Jewish historian Josephus knew where the ten tribes were in his day around 100 A.D., because he said they were still beyond Euphrates and were a great number of people, too many to be counted.


Like I said, you've left Bible Scripture for something else.

Even Genesis 49 is Bible prophecy from God through Jacob about ALL 12 TRIBES as to what would befall them in the latter days...

Gen 49:1
49 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.
KJV

Amos 9:9
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
KJV


After God split old Israel into 2 separate kingdoms in Rehoboam's day, the "house of Israel" became the name ONLY for the ten northern tribe "kingdom of Israel". (see 1 Kings 11 forward)


Ezek 37:15-22
15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

16 Moreover, thou son of man,
take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:

17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, "Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?"

19 Say unto them, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all:
and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
KJV

Continuing to read there in Ezekiel 37 reveals David as their king over them again, and they shall all have one shepherd (Jesus). THAT HAS NEVER HAPPENED YET, but it will at Christ's coming.

So I'm sorry Randy, you are only making yourself look silly by rejecting Scripture in God's Word about His future gathering of the ten tribes of the house of Israel that are not really lost to Him at all. (And I thought this was a Bible-believing forum.)
Too bad you can't discuss something without an attitude, without judgmentalism and name-calling. It's an interesting subject. I have no interest in discussing things with a weak Christian who wants to call fellow Christians with honest opinions "liars who ignore God's word."
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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That's the Amill Millennium you are describing. In Amill the rebellion happens within the Millennium and after it while in Premill rebellion only happens when the Millennium is over, as per Rev 20.
You are so unbelievably ignorant. You falsely represent Amill constantly. Have you no shame? Amill DOES NOT claim that the rebellion happens within the Millennium. Stop lying. Satan's little season obviously occurs after the thousand years are over as Revelation 20 plainly states. Amills do not claim otherwise.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Just so others well understand, the Antichrist appearing first (which is written) is NOT a doctrine from Amill. It is fallacy to name a doctrine that is actually written in The Bible as being linked to one that is not, like the Amill doctrine of men that began in the 2nd century A.D. when the Gnostics crept in.
Stop being ignorant by thinking that all Amills believe everything exactly the same. There are futurist Amills like Truth7t7 who believe in a future Antichrist and all that nonsense just like you.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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More lies. Why can you not tell the truth? Are you scared of it? Why can you not address the truth? Because it exposes your misrepresentations. That is all you are left with. You have nothing on the Amil truth.
He lies constantly about Amills. It's pathetic. He acts as if we are all preterists, which is far from the truth.