Question For JW's
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tigger 2
Well-Known Member
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Is. 9:6
All Christians, I believe, accept this son as being the Christ. Some will tell you that since the meaning of this symbolic name includes the words "Mighty God, Eternal Father," then Jesus is the Mighty God and the Eternal Father."
But there are at least two other ways this personal name has been interpreted by reputable Bible scholars. (1) The titles found within the name (e.g., "Mighty God") are intended in their secondary, subordinate senses (e.g., “a mighty god”). (2) The titles within the name are meant to praise God the Father, not the Messiah.
….
And second, another way competent Bible scholars have interpreted the meaning of this name is with the understanding that it (as with many, if not most, of the other Israelites' personal names) does not apply directly to the Messiah (as we have already seen with "Elijah," "Abijah," etc.) but is, instead, a statement praising the Father, Jehovah God.
Personal names in the ancient Hebrew and Greek are often somewhat cryptic to us today. The English Bible translator must fill in the missing minor words (especially in names composed of two or more Hebrew words) such as "my," "is," "of," etc. in whatever way he thinks best in order to make sense for us today in English.
For instance, two of the best Bible concordances (Young's and Strong's) and a popular trinitarian Bible dictionary (Today's Dictionary of the Bible) differ greatly on the exact meaning of many Biblical personal names because of those "minor" words which must be added to bring out the intended meaning.
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, for example, says the name "Elimelech" (which is literally just "God King") means "God of (the) King." Young's Analytical Concordance says it means "God is King." Today's Dictionary of the Bible says it means " God his king" - p. 206, Bethany House Publ., 1982.
I haven’t found any scholar/translator who says the name of Elimelech should be translated with its literal meaning of “God King.”
Those missing minor words that the translator must supply at his own discretion can often make a vital difference! - For example, the footnote for Gen. 17:5 in The NIV Study Bible: The name 'Abram' "means `Exalted Father,' probably in reference to God (i.e., `[God is] Exalted Father')."- Brackets in original.
But perhaps most instructive of all is the name given to the prophet’s child in Isaiah 8:3 shortly before his giving the name found in Is. 9:6.
Is. 8:3
Maher-shalal-hash-baz: Literally, “spoil speeds prey hastes” or “swift booty speedy prey.” Translated by various Bible scholars as: “In making speed to the spoil he hasteneth the prey” - - “swift [is] booty, speedy [is] prey” - - “the spoil speeded, the prey hasteth” - - “Speeding for spoil, hastening for plunder” - - “There will soon be looting and stealing”- - “Speeding is the spoil, Hastening is the prey” - - “The Looting Will Come Quickly; the Prey Will Be Easy” - - “Take sway the spoils with speed, quickly take the prey” - - “Swift is the booty, speedy is the prey” - - “Swift the Spoils of War and Speedy Comes the Attacker” - - “Make haste to plunder! Hurry to the spoil!” - - “Make haste to the spoil; fall upon the prey.”
And John Gill wrote:
“‘hasten to seize the prey, and to take away the spoil.’ Some translate it, ‘in hastening the prey, the spoiler hastens’; perhaps it may be better rendered, ‘hasten to the spoil, hasten to the prey.’”
Therefore, the personal name at Is. 9:6 has been honestly translated as:
"And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace" - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.) to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.
‘For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, ‘Wonderful, Counselor [IS] The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.’ The two letter word ‘is,’ is usually not stated in Hebrew. Rather, the ‘is’ is understood.” - https://edward-t-babinski.blogspot.com/2016/04/prophecy-about-jesus-mighty-god.html
The Leeser Bible also translates it:
“Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace”
Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith and Goodspeed) says:
"Wonderful counselor is God almighty, Father forever, Prince of peace."
From the Is. 9:6 footnote in the trinity-supporting NET Bible:
".... some have suggested that one to three of the titles that follow ['called'] refer to God, not the king. For example, the traditional punctuation of the Hebrew text suggests the translation, 'and the Extraordinary Strategist, the Mighty God calls his name, "Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."'"
And,
‘Wonderful in counsel is God the mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace’ (Hertz 1968).
Of course it could also be honestly translated: "Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God is the Eternal Father of the Prince of Peace."
And the Tanakh by the JPS, 1985, translates it:
[1]"The Mighty God is planning grace;
[2] The Eternal Father [is] a peaceable ruler."
This latter translation seems particularly appropriate since it is in the form of a parallelism. Not only was the previous symbolic personal name introduced by Isaiah at Is. 8:1 a parallelism ("Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz" means [1]"quick to the plunder; [2] swift to the spoil" - NIV footnote) but the very introduction to this Messianic name at Is. 9:6 is itself a parallelism: [1]"For unto us a child is born; [2] unto us a son is given." It would, therefore, be appropriate to find that this name, too, was in the form of a parallelism as translated by the Tanakh above.
So it is clear, even to a number of trinitarian scholars, that Is. 9:6 does not imply that Jesus is Jehovah God.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
Thats funny-the NT clearly teaches-God did all the powerful works through the one named Jesus-Acts 2:22-1Cor 8:5-6--(Psalm 45:7--Jesus has a God). God doesn't.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
Keiw
Well-Known Member
Keiw
Well-Known Member
Not at all--Your religion has to teach-God has a God-John 20:17, Rev 3:12, Coll 1:3, 1Peter 1:3--Psalm 45:7-- Every real follower knows 100% Jesus has a God-his Father. So if God has a God, that makes more than 1 God.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
Keiw
Well-Known Member
Just correcting your error that has been planted in your brain by Catholicism translating. That translating contradicts Jesus to the core.
The NWT says you're wrong. Are you gonna blame that on Catholics? Are you gonna follow Kingdom Hall to Hell fire?
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Basic Kingdom Hall doctrine: The Bible doesn't mean what it says. It means what Kingdom Hall says! JW's TWIST nearly every verse in the Bible for Kingdom Hall just like children of Satan! Just read the JW posts. They nearly always twist the perfectly clear meaning! Satan is here folks.
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Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
The Greek word translated "firstborn" in that verse is prototokos, which
never means created first; no, it always means born first. The correct Greek
word for created first is protoktistos.
* The average JW probably doesn't know the difference between prototokos
and protoktistos; and no doubt would care little about it anyway. To some;
born first and created first are one and the same.
The thing to note is that "firstborn" doesn't always refer to birth order. The
term also refers to superiority, and as such is transferrable, viz: it's possible
to circumvent the eldest son and give his advantages to a younger, e.g.
Esau to Jacob (Gen 25:23) Manasseh to Ephraim (Gen 48:13-14) and
Reuben to Joseph (Gen 49:3-4, 1Chr 5:1).
The rank of firstborn is versatile. For example the people of Israel are God's
firstborn (Ex 4:22) and David is God's firstborn (Ps 89:20-27)
In the beginning, Adam was the ranking man over all the Earth (Gen 1:26-28)
but he has since been superseded by one who is the ranking man over not
only the Earth, but over the entire cosmos. (Dan 7:13-14, John 3:35, 1Cor
15:27, Phil 2:8-11, Heb 1:2)
_
The Greek word translated "firstborn" in that verse is prototokos, which
never means created first; no, it always means born first. The correct Greek
word for created first is protoktistos.
* The average JW probably doesn't know the difference between prototokos
and protoktistos; and no doubt would care little about it anyway. To some;
born first and created first are one and the same.
The thing to note is that "firstborn" doesn't always refer to birth order. The
term also refers to superiority, and as such is transferrable, viz: it's possible
to circumvent the eldest son and give his advantages to a younger, e.g.
Esau to Jacob (Gen 25:23) Manasseh to Ephraim (Gen 48:13-14) and
Reuben to Joseph (Gen 49:3-4, 1Chr 5:1).
The rank of firstborn is versatile. For example the people of Israel are God's
firstborn (Ex 4:22) and David is God's firstborn (Ps 89:20-27)
In the beginning, Adam was the ranking man over all the Earth (Gen 1:26-28)
but he has since been superseded by one who is the ranking man over not
only the Earth, but over the entire cosmos. (Dan 7:13-14, John 3:35, 1Cor
15:27, Phil 2:8-11, Heb 1:2)
_
Born first, created first. Both defy the coeternal claim of the trinity. All your examples are of those who had a beginning, just as the Son of God did.
Every one of these scriptures you cite show that Jesus was given this rank or authority by God. Wake up!!!
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Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
• John 1:14 . . So the Word became flesh
It's not all that difficult to show the Word's flesh beginning with the dust,
and from thence to Adam, from thence to Eve, from thence to Abraham,
from thence to David, and finally to Mary.
Quite a few Christians with whom I've dialogued online refuse to believe
Adam is Jesus' biological progenitor. You see; there's this "original sin"
thingy to contend with along with the so-called "fallen nature"; which are
assumed passed on by men rather than women. They're convinced the
purpose of Jesus' virgin conception was to protect him from male toxins.
However: were Jesus a divine man instead of an ordinary man, people
couldn't expect him to sympathize with the difficulties of their lives on earth.
• Heb 2:16 . . For he is really not assisting angels at all, but he is assisting
Abraham’s seed. Consequently he was obliged to become like his “brothers”
in all respects, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in
things pertaining to God
_
• John 1:14 . . So the Word became flesh
It's not all that difficult to show the Word's flesh beginning with the dust,
and from thence to Adam, from thence to Eve, from thence to Abraham,
from thence to David, and finally to Mary.
Quite a few Christians with whom I've dialogued online refuse to believe
Adam is Jesus' biological progenitor. You see; there's this "original sin"
thingy to contend with along with the so-called "fallen nature"; which are
assumed passed on by men rather than women. They're convinced the
purpose of Jesus' virgin conception was to protect him from male toxins.
However: were Jesus a divine man instead of an ordinary man, people
couldn't expect him to sympathize with the difficulties of their lives on earth.
• Heb 2:16 . . For he is really not assisting angels at all, but he is assisting
Abraham’s seed. Consequently he was obliged to become like his “brothers”
in all respects, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in
things pertaining to God
_
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