Question on works and faith

[Bob Estey]

I’ve seen many articles and YT videos of Christian’s passionately talking about how we aren’t saved by works. Some go as far as to speak ill of people who value works.

Why is this? Will people who believe works are important to to hell? If a faith teaches that both faith and works are important, are the congregants under condemnation?

I think you are only under condemnation if you sin. (And the Lord forgives the repentant sinner.)

I think it's important we repent of our sin, and I think that might fall under the category of "works." Faith is important, too.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

op: Question on works and faith"?

Precious friend Fether, since you are concerned about "DEAD faith," a better title might be:

faith PLUS works (James) vs GRACE Through faith (Paul)

So, let's prayerfully/Carefully Examine The "Rightly Divided"
Difference, in order to prevent Confusion by "wrongly Combining,"
ok?:

God's TWO Different Programs​

Brief Intro:

(1) From CHRIST To HIS TWELVE, on the earth! { Currently “On HOLD!” }
gospel of the kingdom, "faith WITHOUT works is DEAD" (James), Notice:
James' Inspired WORDS, From God, Are Directly to: The TWELVE
tribes Of ISRAEL (James 1:1), Correct?

Prophecy/Law
------------------------------------------------------------------
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:
-------------------------------------------------
(2) GRACE/MYSTERY

From CHRIST To HIS one, From Heaven!! { Currently ACTIVE!}
"GRACE Through faith" WITHOUT "works" for God's ETERNAL Salvation,
Is Alive! (Paul, God's ONE GRACE apostle TO: The Body Of CHRIST)
(Romans - Philemon)

Conclusion: Is (1) for us, today? OR:

Is (2) Directly To, and For us, Today? OR:

Are BOTH directly TO, And FOR us, Today?
=====================
IF (2) Is Correct, Then God Has Much More Scriptural Confirmation:

God's Approval/TWO Gospels In Prophecy vs Mystery
"Distinctions" of Prophecy vs MYSTERY

Precious Fether:
Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In CHRIST, And HIS
WORD Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

 

[Scott Downey]

I think you are only under condemnation if you sin. (And the Lord forgives the repentant sinner.)

I think it's important we repent of our sin, and I think that might fall under the category of "works." Faith is important, too.

And all men sin, so all are under condemnation if they are not born again with their spirit joined to the Lord s one spirit with Him. Through the Holy Spirit we are joined. This is one of the ministries of the Holy Spirit, very important to our being saved as we are then of God.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

We also as a characteristic of this being joined as one, bear good fruit to God. God plants us like a tree, and His plant that he made (us) will bear good fruit to God. Those who do not bear good fruit are the bad trees. A good tree (God did that work), will bear good fruit. The bad tree is the man of the flesh only who are not of the Spirit, the unsaved. Bearing good fruit includes making melody in you heart to the Lord, prayers, worshipping Christ, being obedient to the message of the gospel. it is not good works. Good works benefit man, good fruit is what we bear to God's work in our life and all Christians are the good tree.

1. Matthew 3:10
   And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Matthew 7:17
   Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Matthew 7:18
   A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
4. Matthew 7:19
   Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
5. Matthew 12:33
   A Tree Known by Its Fruit
   “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

1. Luke 6:43
   A Tree Is Known by Its Fruit
   “For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Luke 8:15
   But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Galatians 5:22
   But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
4. Ephesians 5:9
   (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth),

As you see good fruit are the fruits of the Holy Spirit we produce with the Holy Spirit as our gardener.

 

[Bob Estey]

And all men sin, so all are under condemnation if they are not born again with their spirit joined to the Lord s one spirit with Him. Through the Holy Spirit we are joined. This is one of the ministries of the Holy Spirit, very important to our being saved as we are then of God.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

We also as a characteristic of this being joined as one, bear good fruit to God. God plants us like a tree, and His plant that he made (us) will bear good fruit to God. Those who do not bear good fruit are the bad trees. A good tree (God did that work), will bear good fruit. The bad tree is the man of the flesh only who are not of the Spirit, the unsaved. Bearing good fruit includes making melody in you heart to the Lord, prayers, worshipping Christ, being obedient to the message of the gospel. it is not good works. Good works benefit man, good fruit is what we bear to God's work in our life and all Christians are the good tree.

1. Matthew 3:10
   And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Matthew 7:17
   Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Matthew 7:18
   A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
4. Matthew 7:19
   Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
5. Matthew 12:33
   A Tree Known by Its Fruit
   “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

1. Luke 6:43
   A Tree Is Known by Its Fruit
   “For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Luke 8:15
   But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Galatians 5:22
   But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
4. Ephesians 5:9
   (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth),

As you see good fruit are the fruits of the Holy Spirit we produce with the Holy Spirit as our gardener.

I think the Lord forgives us when we repent of our sin. Until then, life can get rather unpleasant.

 

[Scott Downey]

I think the Lord forgives us when we repent of our sin. Until then, life can get rather unpleasant.

It can get very unpleasant even for believers. We are disciplined and chastened by God, so that we are not condemned along with the WORLD. But I do think some were false brethren meaning they were wicked and not of God.

Example in Corinth, some in the church shamed and despised their fellow believers, had factions among them, got drunk drinking the wine at the Lord's supper. Because of those things, Paul says many were sick and some had died.
But they did not go to hell.
The work God did by creating in them their new spirit is joined to the Lord as one spirit with God.
We are judged for the deeds done in the body.

You can read about all of that here. the Lord's body includes Him, what He did for us going to the cross, and the body of believers who are individually member of the Lord's body.

1 Corinthians 11
Conduct at the Lord’s Supper
17 Now in giving these instructions I do not praise you, since you come together not for the better but for the worse. 18 For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you. 20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper. 21 For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you.

Institution of the Lord’s Supper
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.

Examine Yourself
27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

33 Therefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 But if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, lest you come together for judgment. And the rest I will set in order when I come.

 

[Bob Estey]

It can get very unpleasant even for believers. We are disciplined and chastened by God, so that we are not condemned along with the WORLD. But I do think some were false brethren meaning they were wicked and not of God.

Example in Corinth, some in the church shamed and despised their fellow believers, had factions among them, got drunk drinking the wine at the Lord's supper. Because of those things, Paul says many were sick and some had died.
But they did not go to hell.
The work God did by creating in them their new spirit is joined to the Lord as one spirit with God.
We are judged for the deeds done in the body.

You can read about all of that here. the Lord's body includes Him, what He did for us going to the cross, and the body of believers who are individually member of the Lord's body.

1 Corinthians 11
Conduct at the Lord’s Supper
17 Now in giving these instructions I do not praise you, since you come together not for the better but for the worse. 18 For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you. 20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper. 21 For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you.

Institution of the Lord’s Supper
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.

Examine Yourself
27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

33 Therefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 But if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, lest you come together for judgment. And the rest I will set in order when I come.

It can get very unpleasant even for believers. We are disciplined and chastened by God, so that we are not condemned along with the WORLD. But I do think some were false brethren meaning they were wicked and not of God.

Example in Corinth, some in the church shamed and despised their fellow believers, had factions among them, got drunk drinking the wine at the Lord's supper. Because of those things, Paul says many were sick and some had died.
But they did not go to hell.
The work God did by creating in them their new spirit is joined to the Lord as one spirit with God.
We are judged for the deeds done in the body.

You can read about all of that here. the Lord's body includes Him, what He did for us going to the cross, and the body of believers who are individually member of the Lord's body.

1 Corinthians 11
Conduct at the Lord’s Supper
17 Now in giving these instructions I do not praise you, since you come together not for the better but for the worse. 18 For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you. 20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper. 21 For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you.

Institution of the Lord’s Supper
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.

Examine Yourself
27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

33 Therefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 But if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, lest you come together for judgment. And the rest I will set in order when I come.

Surely, Satan loves to infiltrate Christian leadership, so some amongst the brethren are following him (and probably are unaware of it).

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Wouldn’t a person who is doing works already have faith and be covered under the grave of God?

OF COURSE NOT!!!

The persons who try to justify themselves with WORKS HAVE NO FAITH in Jesus, and HIS SIN OFFERING, and are on the road to hell.

Eph 2:8,9 makes it clear that works are worthless for Salvation, and it's FAITH - Gifted by God - that gets the job done.

AND THEN when a person is Born again by FAITH, and infilled with the Holy Spirit (which what makes the "Christians") then out of that relationship, good works will flow. The FAITH saves, and good works (which are "filthy Rags" in God's sight Isa 64:6) don't.

 

[Davy]

I’ve seen many articles and YT videos of Christian’s passionately talking about how we aren’t saved by works. Some go as far as to speak ill of people who value works.

Why is this? Will people who believe works are important to to hell? If a faith teaches that both faith and works are important, are the congregants under condemnation?

It is very simple really, use common sense. Wherever your most desire is, that... is where your works will be. If your greatest desire is to be a musician, then that is where your heart will mostly be. Same with anything else we most seek. We will have works from wherever our desire is.

So being in Christ means, we will naturally... have works in Him. It's a natural by-product of our Faith. It does NOT mean the works save us, it simply means our Faith will naturally produce those works. That's really what Apostle James meant.

 

[Triumph1300]

Anyone thinking "works will save him or her" is replacing what Jesus did at the Cross.
I.o.w. they decided that what Christ did was not enough to save them.

 

[Triumph1300]

So being in Christ means, we will naturally... have works in Him. It's a natural by-product of our Faith. It does NOT mean the works save us, it simply means our Faith will naturally produce those works. That's really what Apostle James meant.

That sums it up, plain and simple.