Question on works and faith

[Hidden In Him]

I appreciate your response! I am on a couple faith forums now and am accustomed to differing views.

So my question to this goes back to faith and works. I hear so much demonizing if the works approach and so much focus on being saved by faith and grace… yet it seems based on these responses, works are still very important. Essential even. Why this attack on the works so much? Should we not be promoting both equally?

You would get different answers on this, but let me give you mine:

Behind all the doctrinal debate you will see online, there is an under-current if you will of malevolent influence at work, and I mean people who willingly and knowingly serve the darkness. Now I'm not saying look for Satanists under every rock. But I am saying that they hide behind a lot of "Christian" veneers to steer people AWAY from the truth, and paint God as very "forgiving' of sin, in such as way as to excuse it and make it "no big deal" as it were. But sin is a very big deal with God; big enough to have to send His only begotten Son to die on a cross for it, and if that kind of sacrifice had to be made on our behalf, we should be taking the issue of sin very seriously.

In short, the Devil is constantly at work trying to deceive people that sin isn't a big deal, because he knows it actually can be if people take it way too lightly, so he attacks any view that treats it with the seriousness that it needs to be.

If you want a rather disturbing read on the kinds of things you will encounter on the Christian forums, just read something like the following. It will show you the extent to which people hate God, and hate Christians, and will do anything in their power to undermine the teaching of God's word. These people appear atheist, but atheism is yet another cover Satanists operate under when it suits them:

God Is Hate: Trolling Christian Chat Rooms 101

 

[Fether]

You would get different answers on this, but let me give you mine:

Behind all the doctrinal debate you will see online, there is an under-current if you will of malevolent influence at work, and I mean people who willingly and knowingly serve the darkness. Now I'm not saying look for Satanists under every rock. But I am saying that they hide behind a lot of "Christian" veneers to steer people AWAY from the truth, and paint God as very "forgiving' of sin, in such as way as to excuse it and make it "no big deal" as it were. But sin is a very big deal with God; big enough to have to send His only begotten Son to die on a cross for it, and if that kind of sacrifice had to be made on our behalf, we should be taking the issue of sin very seriously.

In short, the Devil is constantly at work trying to deceive people that sin isn't a big deal, because he knows it actually can be if people take it way too lightly, so he attacks any view that treats it with the seriousness that it needs to be.

If you want a rather disturbing read on the kinds of things you will encounter on the Christian forums, just read something like the following. It will show you the extent to which people hate God, and hate Christians, and will do anything in their power to undermine the teaching of God's word. These people appear atheist, but atheism is yet another cover Satanists operate under when it suits them as well:

God Is Hate: Trolling Christian Chat Rooms 101

Do you have any insights on how much grace and mercy God will give those that are deceived and live their life by such deceptive false doctrines?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Do you have any insights on how much grace and mercy God will give those that are deceived and live their life by such deceptive false doctrines?

Complex question, and it depends on the individual.

In general, scripture says God is very long-suffering, and not willing that any should perish. This means that He will stick with somebody until the very end trying to reach them if they have any aptitude for it and their heart is still open to possibly receiving Him. But there are some who can bring judgment upon themselves for tampering with the people of God too long.

Revelation 2:20-23 is a good example of this.

 

[Pearl]

I appreciate your response! I am on a couple faith forums now and am accustomed to differing views.

So my question to this goes back to faith and works. I hear so much demonizing if the works approach and so much focus on being saved by faith and grace… yet it seems based on these responses, works are still very important. Essential even. Why this attack on the works so much? Should we not be promoting both equally?

But they have to be of God.

There have been many 'good' people who have done wonderful things in their lives but these good works count for very little if the person isn't saved by faith. We aren't all called to preach but each of us has a ministry sometimes that's just to our own families, but God know what we are capable of and doesn't overburden us.

 

[Cassandra]

I appreciate your response! I am on a couple faith forums now and am accustomed to differing views.

So my question to this goes back to faith and works. I hear so much demonizing if the works approach and so much focus on being saved by faith and grace… yet it seems based on these responses, works are still very important. Essential even. Why this attack on the works so much? Should we not be promoting both equally?

If one is saved by the Lord Jesus Christ, there is no need to promote works. They are a natural outgrowth of being saved.

 

[Fether]

But they have to be of God.

There have been many 'good' people who have done wonderful things in their lives but these good works count for very little if the person isn't saved by faith. We aren't all called to preach but each of us has a ministry sometimes that's just to our own families, but God know what we are capable of and doesn't overburden us.

When I am thinking about the argument about faith v works, the only people engaging in that conversation are people who actually care about salvation. The only people that care about salvation are people who actually have a belief there is a God and have accepted him. If accepting Christ is all that is needed and works are just a byproduct of that, then aren’t the people who are arguing works also covered under the requirements of the people segueing faith?

 

[Pearl]

There is a very good explanation on www.gotquestions.org

This is the start of it: but do click on the link and read all of it.

Ephesians 2:8–9 makes it clear that we are not saved by good works. In fact, before we are saved, our works are done in the flesh and cannot please God; even our most “righteous” deeds fall far short of God’s glory (see Romans 3:20 and Isaiah 64:6). We can be saved only because God is gracious and merciful and has designed a way for us to be declared righteous when we are not (Psalm 86:5; Ephesians 2:4). When Jesus became sin for us (2 Corinthians 5:21), we inherited His righteousness. Salvation is a divine exchange: our tattered rags of self-effort for the perfection of Christ. Because His death and resurrection paid the price for our evil deeds, we can be declared perfect before God (Romans 5:1). We are told to “put on the Lord Jesus Christ” like a flawless garment (Romans 13:14).

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So my question to this goes back to faith and works. I hear so much demonizing if the works approach and so much focus on being saved by faith and grace… yet it seems based on these responses, works are still very important. Essential even. Why this attack on the works so much? Should we not be promoting both equally?

Yes. But not in regard to what makes a man righteous before God. Only faith in the blood of Christ can make a man righteous, because only faith in the blood is what forgives our sin and makes us guilt free in the eyes of God. Works are essential in that they are the expected and obligatory result of having had your sins forgiven. So, the person who claims they have faith but has no works to match that claim is showing themselves to not really have faith in the blood, just as having works shows a person to have faith in the blood of Christ.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If accepting Christ is all that is needed and works are just a byproduct of that, then aren’t the people who are arguing works also covered under the requirements of the people segueing faith?

No, because to rely on works in any way to make you guilt free before God is to reject the one and only way to be made guilt free before God - his forgiveness, alone.

 

[Pearl]

The best way to find out what is true or false is to ask God directly. People have been teaching false doctrines since the days of Paul. Don't trust the teachings of a particular denomination until you have discovered for yourself if it is true. At my church we are encouraged to check out what we are taught for ourselves and not just accept it all blindly. We have to take some responsibility for ourselves.
1 Timothy 1:3
As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I’ve seen many articles and YT videos of Christian’s passionately talking about how we aren’t saved by works. Some go as far as to speak ill of people who value works.

Why is this? Will people who believe works are important to to hell? If a faith teaches that both faith and works are important, are the congregants under condemnation?

it depends on context.

The Jews promoted a works based Gospel. the attempt to earn salvation by works

Paul, while huge on works, and us doing them, was against this works based gospel. calling it a "different gospel"

when we look to work. we should get the context of why a person is doing them.

 

[marks]

Should we not be promoting both equally?

Is that what you are doing?

In James 2, he speaks of being justified to others because they can see the change in your life because you've trusted in Jesus. God already knows if you have believed unto salvation or not. He knows if you are His child, if you are. Others can only see what you do.

Much love!

 

[Pearl]

How do people describe 'works'?

 

[marks]

Do you have any insights on how much grace and mercy God will give those that are deceived and live their life by such deceptive false doctrines?

Where sin did abound, grace did much more abound.

Much love!

 

[marks]

When I am thinking about the argument about faith v works, the only people engaging in that conversation are people who actually care about salvation.

I see something different, that there are people who engage very much in that discussion desiring to capture people. Or to self-affirm.

Much love!

 

[Triumph1300]

I understand why works do not save.

Great. Exactly what we were talking about.

 

[Triumph1300]

I see something different, that there are people who engage very much in that discussion desiring to capture people

Yup.

 

[Scott Downey]

I appreciate your response! I am on a couple faith forums now and am accustomed to differing views.

So my question to this goes back to faith and works. I hear so much demonizing if the works approach and so much focus on being saved by faith and grace… yet it seems based on these responses, works are still very important. Essential even. Why this attack on the works so much? Should we not be promoting both equally?

Paul has a lot of good things to say about doing good works, but they dont save you.
God also so organizes your life that He has created the good works you are going to be doing in this life, don't you find that amazing?

A saved person can't not be doing a good work, as God is working in us for His good pleasure and will.
Some will do more, some will do less, but all saved people will do some number of good works.
It is not up to us to quantify them.
Ephesians 2 v5 God tells us we are saved by his grace
then v10, we are His workmanship, He is in control of what good works we do

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[Scott Downey]

Philippians 2:12-13
New King James Version

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

v12 is not in conflict with v13. God is at work within us and that can not be prevented, so work out your own salvation does not mean to save yourself by your works, it is more of the idea to acknowledge that God is in charge of your life, come to grips with your calling, and do the things that please God.

I also read this as to be careful to not grieve God by the things you might do, as God holds your very breath in His hands, and you dont want to make God have to chastise you. Consider what happened to the Corinthians who did not discern the Lord's body of believers, they shamed the poor who had nothing, so God made some sick and some died.

Worth a review here
17 Now in giving these instructions I do not praise you, since you come together not for the better but for the worse. 18 For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you. 20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper. 21 For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you.

Institution of the Lord’s Supper
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, [d]“Take, eat; this is My body which is [e]broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.

Examine Yourself
27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and [f]blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks [g]in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the [h]Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

 

[Nancy]

Wouldn’t a person who is doing works already have faith and be covered under the grave of God?

Not for "salvation". Who is getting the glory in this situation, God or the person doing the good works?
jm2c