Obeying Jesus' words (commands) are eating of his body! Jesus is the Word of God. When we obey Jesus' words---we eat from him. Jesus' blood was shed on the cross. Jesus is not in a box in the Catholic Churches!
Questions For A Catholic
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Obeying Jesus' words (commands) are eating of his body! Jesus is the Word of God. When we obey Jesus' words---we eat from him. Jesus' blood was shed on the cross. Jesus is not in a box in the Catholic Churches!
Selene
New Member
I have noticed that you ignored the fact that Jesus also said call no one your "teacher." I have already provided biblical evidence showing you that the Apostles called other men and even themselves "teacher" and "father." Yet, you are unable to refute that fact in the Bible. Perhaps, you need to tell the Apostles that they were wrong in calling others including themselves "teacher" and "father." You should also admonish Jesus for going against what He says when He referred Abraham as "father." Do you have an explaination for that? We have offered our explainations. So, you now need to refute it. In other words, if Jesus truely meant that we are not to call anyone "teacher" and "father" then offer your explainations of why St. Paul called himself "teacher" and "father." Offer an explaination of why Jesus referred Abraham as "father."
Do you have an explaination of why it is okay for you to make images of your loved ones and even a statue of Abraham Lincoln, when it clearly specifies in the Bible that God commanded "not to MAKE any likeness of anything on earth?"
In Christ,
Selene
I do like the reverence as well - I had no experience with it before I attended Mass
You already proved you can't understand spiritual things. Paul did NOT tell anyone to call him Father. Do you BOW DOWN TO THE STATUE OF LINCOLN? Do you? Why not? Do you bow down to your daughter's doll? How about your son's toy truck? Your kids pictures? And I didn't ignore anything. I don't call other believers "Teacher." So now what?
Nobody going to tackle mine? Or are they un-tackle-able? 
What of 1 Cor 4:6 and 2 Tim 3:16?
And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”
What of when he said the blood was of the covenant? Did a covenant actually bleed or is it SYMBOLIC?
Other churches have the Canon as well so this means you are adding to Scripture something to make Christ's message full?
What of 1 Cor 4:6 and 2 Tim 3:16?
Oh, is that what he said? Or are you omitting scripture and taking things out of context?
And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”
What of when he said the blood was of the covenant? Did a covenant actually bleed or is it SYMBOLIC?
The only mystery is how one considers bread to be flesh and wine to be blood... Take it into a lab and have it analyzed, why don't you?
Selene
New Member
I compared God's command not to make any image to all things such as images of your loved ones, the statue of Lady Liberty and the founding fathers, toy dolls, etc... All of these fall under that category.
We know that we have only one Father in Heaven, who is God. We are not confused. We also know that there is only one Son of God - Jesus Christ. Again, we are not confused. But we also understand that Christ sent the Apostles to preach the Gospels and these Apostles called themselves "fathers." We understand that even today God still calls people to preach the Gospels. If God can call prophets and Apostles to preach His Word during biblical times, what makes you think that He stopped doing this.
As for 2 Timothy 2:2, the Scipture is clear that St. Paul entrusted what he learned to Timothy and instructed Timothy to do the same to faithful men so they can also teach others. This is the evidence for Apostolic succession. How did you interpret this biblical verse? Offer your explaination of why you think St. Paul is not saying what he is saying in the Bible instead of accusing me of proving my false doctrine. I am sorry to say.....but to accuse someone of having a false doctrine from biblical scripture instead of offering their own explaination is not a sincere dialogue.
In Christ,
Selene
-- Jesus wants us to have an intimate, familiar relationship with HIm, but at times God wants us to remember just who he is and show Him the great reverence and awe he is entitled to.
The Catholic Mass had that reverence for me.
[font="arial][size="2"]Nobody going to tackle mine? Or are they un-tackle-able?
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Other churches have the Canon as well so this means you are adding to Scripture something to make Christ's message full?
What of 1 Cor 4:6 and 2 Tim 3:16?
Oh, is that what he said? Or are you omitting scripture and taking things out of context?
And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”
What of when he said the blood was of the covenant? Did a covenant actually bleed or is it SYMBOLIC?
The only mystery is how one considers bread to be flesh and wine to be blood... Take it into a lab and have it analyzed, why don't you?
I am getting there Texus - lots of posts - you have good questions
Where?
No, it's not. Timothy was called a disciple and nothing more.
This passage is also terrible "proof" of proving succession because Paul wrote this to Timothy... It wasn't from Peter.
It's obvious it's talking about church leadership, you notice he's to entrust MEN, plural... Not one "successor", but men, to lead and teach the body. It also cannot be more painfully obvious why he'd say this, you don't want just anyone teaching unbiblical principles. You want someone competent. This is enforced in Hebrews and other places when the pastors are to be given a higher account of what they've taught the church than will the church people themselves... It's obvious God wants competent people teaching and not distorting the gospel, hence his eternal condemnation statements regarding people that distort it. He holds it in high regard.
Selene
New Member
Hello TexUs,
I would be happy to answer your questions. They are a lot of questions, so I will try to address it one at a time:
1. Worship: You ask are we not remembering Mary and the Saints? The answer is Yes. We remember Mary and the saints just as you remember your loved ones who passed away....just as you celebrate Memorial Day in remembrance of the soldiers who died for your country. However, I'm pretty sure that you don't worship them. We don't worship Mary and the saints as well.
2. Prayer to the Saints: If you believe that Christ is the only mediator as you pointed out, then why do you ask your family and friends to pray for you? Why not go directly to God Himself and pray to Him directly? We do not pray to Judas. Judas is nowhere in any of our liturgies with the rest of the Apostles and saints. Christians who are on earth who believe in our Lord are our brothers. We all make up the body of Christ. The body of Christ are the believers and those who have faith in our Lord. We are the body of Christ and are one. When a Christian die, do you believe that he stopped being a Christian when he died? We do not. Do you believe that a Christian is no longer part of the body of Christ when he dies? We do not. The souls in Heaven also make up the body of Christ. So, the Christian who believes in Christ has eternal life in Heaven because that is what Christ said. Because these Christians in Heaven are also the part of the mytical body of Christ just like us, then we can ask them to pray for us just as we ask any Christian here who is also part of the body of Christ to pray for us. The Bible shows that there are people in Heaven. The Scripture is found in Hebrews 21:1. The cloud of witnesses over our head are the people in Heaven.
Hebrews 12:1
And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:
3 You ask what makes Mary special? It was Christ who honored His mother and Father just as he followed all Ten Commandments. One of the Ten Commandments is to honor your mother and father. Christ was the most perfect son. He honored His Father, who is God and His mother Mary. The word "honor" in Hebrew means to glorify. It was Christ who glorified His mother Mary. All we're doing is following what He did.
4. You ask do we draw a line between "tradition" and "written." First of all, the tradition we follow is the "Apostolic Traditon." There are two types of traditions mentioned in the Bible. The one that St. Paul spoke about in 2 Th. 2:14 is the Apostolic Tradition. The Apostolic Tradition that was handed down to us from the Apostles themselves is aligned with written Scripture and this is the only tradition we follow.
2 Thessalonians 2:14
Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the TRADITIONS, which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle
I hope that answers your questions.
In Christ,
Selene
Selene
New Member
St. Paul referred to himself as "father" in 1 Corinthians 4:15.
The fact that St. Paul entrusted Timothy everything he learned and then instruct Timothy to also entrust faithful men the same teaching so that they in turn would teach others shows that the Apostles DID appoint someone to replace them when they die. St. Paul was an Apostle, and the rest of the Apostles did the same thing he did. If St. Paul did, then so did the rest. What makes you think that the rest were different?
By the way, I have to get to work, but I will return to this forum soon.
In Christ,
Selene
Fair enough however what of my other three questions in this topic?
You might have an argument if that was in fact what I see Catholics doing, however I do not see "Please pray for me" [Not in STEAD of] in any of these prayers.
http://www.catholic....prayer.php?s=31
My Queen and my Mother,
I give myself entirely to you;
and to show my devotion to you,
I consecrate to you this day my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart,
my whole being without reserve.
Wherefore, good Mother,
as I am your own,
keep me, guard me,
as your property and possession.
Amen.
It sounds like that's more than just "asking them to pray for you"...
And even if that's all it was, is this not communicating with the dead, Deut 18:11?
So? That didn't answer my question. I know you don't pray to Judas I'm asking why. There is nothing that makes Mary better than Judas because if you believe the Bible is the inspired word of God and is infallible, you must maintain that there is no favoritism among believers and that we are all on equal, sinful, corrupted footing.
You cannot arrive at that conclusion in any way at all, it's not in the text. The cloud of witnesses is indeed a reference to past saints however there is nothing that supports them hanging over our head and involved in earth in any way at all. Indeed the MAXIMUM you can gather from this scripture is example-setting... THEREFORE, since these men have paved the way...
Additionally, "over our head" is found nowhere in the original text. You now must resort to adding to scripture in order to prove your position, what does 1 Cor 4:6 say about that?
We glorify WHOM by living like we should? Certainly not Mary. The purpose of man is to bring glory to God, not Mary. Living by the example Christ set glorifies God, not Mary.
In fact, I will most certainly task you with providing Biblical evidence that Mary is to be glorified.
So once more, what makes Mary better than Judas? Why Mary?
Firstly, it's verse 15, not 14... Anyway, the Greek used is paradosis which means "transmission", not "traditions". The point of the passage is something that's been taught them, that's been transmitted to them. Is it a tradition? Possibly, but doubtful. Or is it the gospel? Most probably, considering that's exactly what Paul closed the previous verse out with.
No, he doesn't. He refers to Timothy as a son and THAT'S IT. Once more you add to the text what is not there. What did Paul say of those that did this, again?
You should grasp the concept of "loving someone like a son" because it still happens today.
Paul didn't entrust the Gospel message to men?
Here I was thinking that God has given it to all men.........
The only mystery is how one considers bread to be flesh and wine to be blood... Take it into a lab and have it analyzed, why don't you?
Whenever I try to explain transubsubstanciation, I always mention that if the consecrate bread and wine were taken to a lab and analyzed they would indeed be shown as bread and wine because this is part of what Thomas Aquinas called the "accidents," it looks like bread, tastes like bread, smells like bread, feels like bread but it ain't bread it's Christ's body. Any tests done in a lab would only show us that Christ's body and blood have truly "resemble" bread and wine. Jesus told us that we must eat and drink the body and blood of the son of man to have eternal life and he refered to himself as the bread of life did he not? 1 Corinthians 11 stresses heavily that the bread and wine are CHrist's body and blood and the need to discern them.
Bread doesn't bleed.
Bread doesn't breathe.
Bread doesn't speak.
Bread doesn't sweat.
Bread doesn't etc.
So the cross of Christ was and is not sufficient for salvation?
Obviously, you're going to need scriptural backing on that one.
Texus - there is so much to comment on in your posts - I think Selene and I are going to address each one individually and that is going to make it difficult to follow up. I think I will pick on of your questions and we can talk about it.
2. Prayer to the Saints: If you believe that Christ is the only mediator as you pointed out, then why do you ask your family and friends to pray for you? Why not go directly to God Himself and pray to Him directly?
You included a prayer to Mary that appears to be over the top, but is actually quite common in the liturgy and monasteries that hold Mary in high esteem. I understand why you have some concerns about holding Mary up to highly and frankly some groups have been confronted by the Pope for going overboard. Admittedly, it was a real concern for me when I was checking out Catholicism before I joined.so I went beyond the typical Catholic reasoning back into history for answers. Unfortunately, I have two meetings I have to go to right now so I will return later.
2. Prayer to the Saints: If you believe that Christ is the only mediator as you pointed out, then why do you ask your family and friends to pray for you? Why not go directly to God Himself and pray to Him directly?
You included a prayer to Mary that appears to be over the top, but is actually quite common in the liturgy and monasteries that hold Mary in high esteem. I understand why you have some concerns about holding Mary up to highly and frankly some groups have been confronted by the Pope for going overboard. Admittedly, it was a real concern for me when I was checking out Catholicism before I joined.so I went beyond the typical Catholic reasoning back into history for answers. Unfortunately, I have two meetings I have to go to right now so I will return later.
Selene
New Member
My brother, we follow everything that Jesus did when He was walking on the earth 2000 years ago. Jesus DID submit to His mother Mary. We also do the same thing He did. That was how Jesus glorified His mother, by being subject under her and being obedient to her (See Luke 2:51). When Jesus washed the feet of the disciples, our priests also do the same thing. The Pope and our priests also wash the feet of others.
We don't pray to Judas. We pray for Judas. The angels and Saints in Heaven don't need our prayers because they are already in Heaven; therefore, we ask them to pray for us and for our brothers and sisters like Judas. As for Mary, it was Christ who made her special. One of the Ten Commandments of God is "honor thy mother and father." Christ fulfilled this commandment not just by honoring His Father ONLY. He also honored His mother. If He honored only His Father and not His mother, then He sinned. Jesus was obedient to His mother and honored her like a queen. Jesus was the perfect son for any parent to have. If Jesus did not honor His mother, then He sinned and broke the commandment.
Those clouds of witnesses are the Saints whom we ask to pray for us and whom we speak to. Jesus was able to speak to Moses and Elijah in the Transfiguration despite that Moses was already gone from the earth. We are able to do the same thing because the body of Christ includes all believers in God regardless of where they are on earth or Heaven. We are one. The body of Christ is not divided.
No, my brother, Christ did not entrust the Gospel to all men because the pagans did not have the Gospel until the Apostles came to them. He entrusted the Gospel only to the Apostles. It was the Apostles who brought it to the Gentiles.
Selene
New Member
As a matter of fact, even King David was able to address the Angels in Heaven when he told them to bless the Lord (See Psalm 103:20-21). If David can speak to the Angels in Heaven, then so can we. And we actually do. We ask the Angels to keep watch over us in the same way that you would ask a friend to watch over you if you are ill in the hospital.
I am not interested in getting into the discussion on the Eucharist, but I did run across this verse:
1 Corinthians 10:16
Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?
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