Questions for Sabbatarians

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Ghada

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Arguments from silence aren't very convincing.
They're convincing enough not to obey something not there.

Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

I don't read any command of Sabbath by the apostles of the Lord to the churches of God.
No Christian would ever dare say: "Since Christ didn't require the rich young ruler to have no other gods before Jehovah, or to abstain from idolatry or taking the LORD's name in vain, why should the new covenant Christian be bound to such things?"
True.

And since Christ does command these things by His apostles for us to keep, then we must keep them. Including stealing, vile cursing, blaspheming, drunkenness, etc...

But nothing in the doctrine of Christ and apostles commands keeping the sabbath.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Any of you Sabbath commandos come to my door preaching your self-righteous sabbath, I shut the door in your face with no fond farewell...It's called hearing and keeping the doctrine of Christ.

Does anything more really need to be said here?

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Nope. Including no God speed.
 

Big Boy Johnson

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Yeah, that's probably why a search for "circaseptan" (meaning "cycle of seven" or weekly) at The National Library Of Medicine's research database returns 150+ results.

You apparently haven't studied much on how new age teachings are being mixed in to the church.

New age has lots of references to "rhythms" and "vibrations" and the like. You should really get out more!

And, no need to concern yourself with my health... not that you would anyway.... since around '86 / '87 I started learning of God's promises concerning health and have no been sick since that time.

As I got older the Lord started leading me to do things beneficial for health such as getting plenty of sleep, exercise, drinking plenty of water, FORGIVING others, taking beneficial vitamins and minerals, and most of all...

Proverbs 4:20-23 (see John 8:51, Proverbs 5:1,2, James 1:22)
Attend to My words; incline your ear unto My sayings....let them not depart from your eyes; keep them in the midst of your heart....for they are LIFE unto those that find them, and HEALTH to all their flesh....keep your heart with all diligence; for out of it flow the forces of life.



You can laugh all you want, but the habit might take hold until you find yourself laughing right in the face of Christ.

Reckon I'm in trouble with the Lord because I don't go to church on Saturday?

Does one have to embrace your belief system in order to be saved
 
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Big Boy Johnson

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Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Good point!

Since Jesus and His Apostles never taught Christians are required to keep Saturday sabbath on the New Testament... those that aren't keeping Saturday sabbath are not violating the New Testament at all.
 

BarneyFife

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Good point!

Since Jesus and His Apostles never taught Christians are required to keep Saturday sabbath on the New Testament... those that aren't keeping Saturday sabbath are not violating the New Testament at all.

He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. (1 John 2:6)

So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. (Luke 4:16)

Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, (Acts 17:2)

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BarneyFife

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The biggest hypocrisy, is that such Sabbatarians, is that they also make special 'dispensations' for working on the sabbath in gvt paid work, such as military, first responders, politicians, medical services, etc...

The insult added to injury is they make the pay to be 'offerings' to their ministers.

Talk about 'it is Corban'. Not just to avoid honoring mother and father, but also their own Sabbath.

And I'm quite sure the ministers that make the exceptions are just as pleased by it as the rabbi of old.

This "Corban" argument is a fairly new Sabbath objection tool that I've only seen from one other member here on CyB, so I guess it'll be making the rounds.

It's not very creative and even less convincing since it likens people effectively stealing from their parents and merely claiming it has been given to the church to taking earnings made from Christ's work of mercy on the Sabbath and actually giving it as an offering to God.

Evil surmising and false witness/gossip

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Ghada

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This "Corban" argument is a fairly new Sabbath objection tool that I've only seen from one other member here on CyB, so I guess it'll be making the rounds.
The corban use is not a Sabbath objection tool, but is the exception tool hypocritically used by some sabbath keepers today.

It's not necessary to make sabbath pay offering to their ministers, but just makes it all the more hypocritical for WORKING on their sabbath day.

There is no sabbath keeper on earth today, that can be soldiers in a state or national military. They can't be emergency workers and responders, doctors, law enforcers, nor even public utility employees working during power outages.

If you are a sabbath keeper as by law, then you must abstain from any such employment, that will or even may require you to work on your sabbath day, whatever day you have concluded is a lawful sabbath.

I doubt a sabbath law-keeper could even get first hired onto any 7-day-week store, fast food, or restaurant...To keep a sabbath by law, someone would have to live like an OT child of Israel: Farmer.


It's not very creative and even less convincing since it likens people effectively stealing from their parents and merely claiming it has been given to the church to taking earnings made from Christ's work of mercy on the Sabbath and actually giving it as an offering to God.
So, we see now how the corban exception for WORKING on the Sabbath, is ministered to the hypocrites. The problem is, that it's so blatantly phony, that it insults normal intelligence. Only someone wanting to believe the lie, would accept it as justification for WORKING on their sabbath day for pay.

Let's break this down with honest eyes:

The corban tool for exception is not 'stealing money', but covering guilt by offing it to the ministers. (And no doubt the ministers came up with it. Or at the very least gladly consent.)

Mercy work for pay is called 'a job'. An adventure maybe, but still work for pay. For a true sabbath keeper of old, this would be blaspheming the sabbath. It's trying to turn working for pay into a 'work of charity'. Is that what politicians and soldiers and police are doing? Mercy work? Right. (Although, killing the bad guys is good for the good guys)

Corban is not an offering to God, nor even unto the Lord. Jesus calls it hypocrisy. And the ministers gain by it.

The hypocrisy is working on the day you call your sabbath. If I were a sabbath keeper by law, then I would either refuse any work, that could possibly require it on my sabbath day. The only place I'd work that may require it, is where I won't get paid that day. The problem is that gvt pay can't even be rejected. They wouldn't know how. You can't even give it back to the gvt.

I certainly wouldn't enrich the ministers under the hypocrisy of "It is corban."


Evil surmising and false witness/gossip
What gossip? You're the one bearing witness to you sabbath keepers breaking your sabbaths, that you with feigned lips call 'mercy work'.

Others have borne witness to hypocritically making their pay corban, who with equally feigned lips say goes 'to God'.

The false witnesses here are sabbath keepers, that say they are keeping it by law as in the days of old.

What you maliciously call evil surmising, is your sabbath being exposed for what it is: Your own sabbath made by your own law.

This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

NT law of man to keep a sabbath is a self-righteous Christian fable, that is also used to accuse other Christians of breaking their law, that they themselves do not keep.

Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

In this case the law is dispensed by false angels.

 

BarneyFife

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The corban use is not a Sabbath objection tool, but is the exception tool hypocritically used by some sabbath keepers today.

It's not necessary to make sabbath pay offering to their ministers, but just makes it all the more hypocritical for WORKING on their sabbath day.

There is no sabbath keeper on earth today, that can be soldiers in a state or national military. They can't be emergency workers and responders, doctors, law enforcers, nor even public utility employees working during power outages.

If you are a sabbath keeper as by law, then you must abstain from any such employment, that will or even may require you to work on your sabbath day, whatever day you have concluded is a lawful sabbath.

I doubt a sabbath law-keeper could even get first hired onto any 7-day-week store, fast food, or restaurant...To keep a sabbath by law, someone would have to live like an OT child of Israel: Farmer.



So, we see now how the corban exception for WORKING on the Sabbath, is ministered to the hypocrites. The problem is, that it's so blatantly phony, that it insults normal intelligence. Only someone wanting to believe the lie, would accept it as justification for WORKING on their sabbath day for pay.

Let's break this down with honest eyes:

The corban tool for exception is not 'stealing money', but covering guilt by offing it to the ministers. (And no doubt the ministers came up with it. Or at the very least gladly consent.)

Mercy work for pay is called 'a job'. An adventure maybe, but still work for pay. For a true sabbath keeper of old, this would be blaspheming the sabbath. It's trying to turn working for pay into a 'work of charity'. Is that what politicians and soldiers and police are doing? Mercy work? Right. (Although, killing the bad guys is good for the good guys)

Corban is not an offering to God, nor even unto the Lord. Jesus calls it hypocrisy. And the ministers gain by it.

The hypocrisy is working on the day you call your sabbath. If I were a sabbath keeper by law, then I would either refuse any work, that could possibly require it on my sabbath day. The only place I'd work that may require it, is where I won't get paid that day. The problem is that gvt pay can't even be rejected. They wouldn't know how. You can't even give it back to the gvt.

I certainly wouldn't enrich the ministers under the hypocrisy of "It is corban."



What gossip? You're the one bearing witness to you sabbath keepers breaking your sabbaths, that you with feigned lips call 'mercy work'.

Others have borne witness to hypocritically making their pay corban, who with equally feigned lips say goes 'to God'.

The false witnesses here are sabbath keepers, that say they are keeping it by law as in the days of
What you maliciously call evil surmising, is your sabbath being exposed for what it is: Your own sabbath made by your own law.

This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

NT law of man to keep a sabbath is a self-righteous Christian fable, that is also used to accuse other Christians of breaking their law, that they themselves do not keep.

Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

In this case the law is dispensed by false angels.

You're free to interpret the requirements of post-theocracy Sabbath-keeping any way you like. Millions of Sabbath-keepers are doing so conscientiously according to the Scriptures. It is impossible to work in organizations that do works of mercy without getting paid. Working as an employee for one day per week without pay is not allowed in hospitals, etc. Your charges of hypocrisy are a matter of opinion and your aggressive rhetoric belies the likely impossibility of having any civil discourse with you on the subject.

Blessings

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Ghada

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You're free to interpret the requirements of post-theocracy Sabbath-keeping any way you like. Millions of Sabbath-keepers are doing so conscientiously according to the Scriptures.
So now, you try to frame it as just a simple matter of personal faith and choice.

If that were the case with all sabbath-keeping Christians, then there would be no ongoing need to defend the churches of God against the false accusation of violating the sabbath and breaking God's commandments.

It is impossible to work in organizations that do works of mercy without getting paid.
Exactly. And so anyone keeping the OT sabbath by law don't hire on to WORK there.

God's commandments don't come with exceptions.

Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death

You are openly espousing hypocrisy for preaching an OT sabbath commandment, and also preaching working on it. Making it 'corban' only adds insult to injury.


Your charges of hypocrisy are a matter of opinion
If your sabbath keeping is not by commandment, but by personal choice of faith only, then say so.

Otherwise, you're self-denial cannot be understated. Any honest child could hear your justifying argument, and rightly rebuke you for the utter hypocrisy of it.

You judge and condemn others based on your own commandment, that you say does not need to be kept.






and your aggressive rhetoric belies
Belies schmelies.

BarneyFife said:
Evil surmising and false witness/gossip

I have found it to be mostly true, that people who don't like being challenged, sooner or later end up making it personal with false accusation.

You start the fire, and then act sanctimonious when challenged for it.
the likely impossibility of having any civil discourse with you on the subject.

I can handle false accusations, because they mean nothing to me. It's self-denial insults to intelligence, and dishonest churlishness disguised as 'civil discourse', that I rightly despise.

And so, unless you want to stick with the argument, and try and offer a new way of justifying working on your pseudo sabbath law...


 

BarneyFife

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So now, you try to frame it as just a simple matter of personal faith and choice.

Perhaps you're against religious liberty. Sorry to hear that.

Exactly. And so anyone keeping the OT sabbath by law don't hire on to WORK there.

Oh, but they do, I assure you.


God's commandments don't come with exceptions.

Oversimplifying problems doesn't get them solved. If someone were drowning right in front of you, and you could save him, but the "NO SWIMMING" sign loomed largely before you, you decided to save him anyway, and he snuck some reward money into your clothing before making off without leaving contact info, might you not give it to charity to avoid profiting from a benevolent gesture?

If your sabbath keeping is not by commandment, but by personal choice of faith only, then say so.

What I say is that I can have it both ways, since I'm not a robot.

"If you love Me, keep My commandments?"

Otherwise, you're self-denial cannot be understated.

Thanks?

"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

I have found it to be mostly true, that people who don't like being challenged, sooner or later end up making it personal with false accusation.

You start the fire, and then act sanctimonious when challenged for it.

Or, they don't mind being challenged but object to false accusations about hypothetical greedy ministers that aren't named—just targeted with so much cannon fodder as a means to denigrate the belief of real, live conscientious souls who mean no harm to anyone.

I can handle false accusations,

Good skill to have around here

It's self-denial insults to intelligence, and dishonest churlishness disguised as 'civil discourse', that I rightly despise.

And so, unless you want to stick with the argument, and try and offer a new way of justifying working on your pseudo sabbath law...

Not coming in very clear, but righteous indignation is something you're entitled to, if you've got the emotional energy, I guess.

And, as for "your pseudo sabbath law," I hear that your down on religious liberty, but I'm sticking to my original observation that God-granted religious liberty affords me the right to observe the Sabbath in a way that, unfortunately, meets with your "rightful despising."

You might find this shocking but I have no burden to justify anything to demanding, haranguing folks. This is a courtesy reply. I don't remember your posts being so unpleasant when you first got here.

:hearteyes:

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Big Boy Johnson

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If that were the case with all sabbath-keeping Christians, then there would be no ongoing need to defend the churches of God against the false accusation of violating the sabbath and breaking God's commandments.

They are obviously not keeping the sabbath as instructed under the law of Moses so it's not the same as the sabbath back then. They just having church in Saturday and not really doing the sabbath like the Jews did under the Law of Moses.

It's similar to the Amish claiming they don't believing in using modern technology and then they cheat by going to people that are not Amish to have things done to take advantage of their use of modern technology.
 

BarneyFife

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They are obviously not keeping the sabbath as instructed under the law of Moses so it's not the same as the sabbath back then. They just having church in Saturday and not really doing the sabbath like the Jews did under the Law of Moses.

It's similar to the Amish claiming they don't believing in using modern technology and then they cheat by going to people that are not Amish to have things done to take advantage of their use of modern technology.

It's clear from your dismissive analysis that you don't know much of anything about the way the average Adventist keeps the Sabbath, BB. It's so easy to criticize people who are doing the best they can. That's a universal principle. You would think that brothers in Christ would be encouraging one another. I assume that whatever you do out of a sense of duty to God, you do to the best of your ability. Is it so much to hope for the same in return?

You have me at a disadvantage.

:hearteyes:

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Big Boy Johnson

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It's clear from your dismissive analysis that you don't know much of anything about the way the average Adventist keeps the Sabbath, BB. It's so easy to criticize people who are doing the best they can. That's a universal principle. You would think that brothers in Christ would be encouraging one another. I assume that whatever you do out of a sense of duty to God, you do to the best of your ability. Is it so much to hope for the same in return?

You have me at a disadvantage.

I was not aware that you guys claim to be following the sabbath just like they did under the Law of Moses where the sabbath was established as in following the law.

There are some in the hebrew root movement that are actually doing this as it was done in the old testament where they not only didn't work, but they did not do anything that caused others to have to work, etc, etc.

I thought you guys were just having church on Saturdays and telling your employers you cannot come to work on Saturday
 

BarneyFife

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I was not aware that you guys claim to be following the sabbath just like they did under the Law of Moses where the sabbath was established as in following the law.

There are some in the hebrew root movement that are actually doing this as it was done in the old testament where they not only didn't work, but they did not do anything that caused others to have to work, etc, etc.

I thought you guys were just having church on Saturdays and telling your employers you cannot come to work on Saturday

Who are "you guys?"

:hearteyes:
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BarneyFife

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@Big Boy Johnson

We're all individuals, trying to make our way through the maze of traps the devil has set for us.

Some of us meet together;have common beliefs. We're not robots—we're humans.

You're one, too.

:hearteyes:
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Big Boy Johnson

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Who are "you guys?"


You know, all you sabbatarins


We're all individuals, trying to make our way through the maze of traps the devil has set for us.

Some of us meet together;have common beliefs. We're not robots—we're humans.

You're one, too.

Yes, I'm a human... a human that doesn't go to church on Saturday since no such directive is given by the Lord in the New Covenant.

But, if you want to go to church on Saturday... you can if you want.

Just don't get upset when others don't go to church on Saturday and point out that no such directive is given by the Lord in the New Covenant.
 

Cassandra

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Any of you Sabbath commandos come to my door preaching your self-righteous sabbath, I shut the door in your face with no fond farewell...It's called hearing and keeping the doctrine of Christ.

Oh boy..SMH. no it isn't. Where did you get that that is the doctrine of Christ? Sabbatarians don't go door to door--that is the JWs. I don't slam the door on them either.

God really messed up when He put a ceremonial law into the 10 Commandments,huh?

And as for Sabbatarians working as EMTs, or hospital folk, or in the military. It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. Jesus healed on the Sabbath It wasn't Jesus who restricted the Sabbath like that--it was the Pharisees.
and with respect to Sabbatarians in the military--most go in as CO so work in health or as chaplains.chaplains assistants, or medics. Ever hear of Desmond Doss?
'
Movie about him called Hacksaw ridge

@BarneyFife no reason to waste your time with this stuff. And Happy Sabbath to you!
 
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Big Boy Johnson

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Oh boy..SMH. no it isn't. Where did you get that that is the doctrine of Christ?

The doctrine of Christ, aka doctrine of the Apostles (since they were being led by the Lord).... never included Saturday sabbath.

Nowhere in the New Covenant do we see Jesus or His Apostles teaching anybody to keep Saturday sabbath.
 

BarneyFife

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But, if you want to go to church on Saturday... you can if you want.

Whew! I'm glad you're okay with it because I've been doing it for 34 years without the benefit of your permission.

Just don't get upset when others don't go to church on Saturday and point out that no such directive is given by the Lord in the New Covenant.

I'm not upset at all about people believing and practicing their faith according to the dictates of their own consciences because I'm a really enthusiastic promoter of religious liberty.

But if I were to get upset about something I'm quite sure I wouldn't need your permission for that, either.

The problem I did have with you is unrelated to the Sabbath and is something you won't acknowledge anyway, so 'nuff said about that on my end.

Unless you force the issue, of course, and I don't believe a pleasant fellow like you would do that.

It seems to bear constant repeating/reminding that judging and warning are not the same thing. And I'll be warning folks about the dangers of discarding any of God's commandments until I get cancelled.

:hearteyes:
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