Questions

[VictoryinJesus]

I ask what is the gospel of Jesus Christ?
What is the message of His death and resurrection?


1 Corinthians 9:24-27
[24] Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize?
What does that mean? One receives the prize, yet many run the race? One body receives the prize. The body of Christ which belongs to the Head which is Christ.
So run, that ye may obtain. [25] And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things.
Mastery of what?
Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; (Flesh)
but we an incorruptible. (Spirit)
[26] I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: (in vain)
[27] But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection:
Under subjection to what?
Better yet, under subjection to who?
The message of Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection.
Jesus Christ (the embodiment of the law, the fulfilment of the law). Paul contributes nothing. That has to take great effort to stop all those self-justifying works of the flesh.
lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

There is only one way to be castaway…to not be “in Christ.” Spirit.

2 Corinthians 9:12-15 KJV
[12] For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God; [13] Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men ; [14] And by their prayer for you, which long after you for the exceeding grace of God in you. [15] Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.

Galatians 2:5 KJV
[5] To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

Hebrews 12:9 KJV
[9] Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

What is being subjected to? That it is based off what Jesus did (the Lamb provided by God), not off how our flesh fails. Works? Works are works of the Spirit. Not works of the flesh. Forgiveness is spiritual. Even though it manifests in the flesh. All the attributes of love are spiritual: patient, kind, delights in good, long-suffering, hopes, rejoices with the truth, trusts. What is the fruit of the Spirit?

Romans 8:13-15 KJV
[13] For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. [14] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Notice if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Deeds of the body…are they flesh? Or Spirit?


1 Corinthians 9:14 KJV
[14] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
What is the gospel of Jesus Christ again? Death and resurrection. Based off what work?

Spirit.
Not flesh.

2 Corinthians 13:4-9 KJV
[4] For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you. [5] Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? [6] But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates. [7] Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates. [8] For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth. [9] For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.

Even your perfection.
In Christ.

 

[bbyrd009]

nice! i would say that

We argue love requires less. Love requires more.

love requires more of me, and less of others, in a sense, because i am required to confess my sins, but i do not require sins to be confessed to me to forgive. So that is a hard one to learn, or at least was for me.

 

[GodsGrace]

I ask what is the gospel of Jesus Christ?
What is the message of His death and resurrection?


1 Corinthians 9:24-27
[24] Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize?
What does that mean? One receives the prize, yet many run the race? One body receives the prize. The body of Christ which belongs to the Head which is Christ.
So run, that ye may obtain. [25] And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things.
Mastery of what?
Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; (Flesh)
but we an incorruptible. (Spirit)
[26] I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: (in vain)
[27] But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection:
Under subjection to what?
Better yet, under subjection to who?
The message of Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection.
Jesus Christ (the embodiment of the law, the fulfilment of the law). Paul contributes nothing. That has to take great effort to stop all those self-justifying works of the flesh.
lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

There is only one way to be castaway…to not be “in Christ.” Spirit.

2 Corinthians 9:12-15 KJV
[12] For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God; [13] Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men ; [14] And by their prayer for you, which long after you for the exceeding grace of God in you. [15] Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.

Galatians 2:5 KJV
[5] To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

Hebrews 12:9 KJV
[9] Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

What is being subjected to? That it is based off what Jesus did (the Lamb provided by God), not off how our flesh fails. Works? Works are works of the Spirit. Not works of the flesh. Forgiveness is spiritual. Even though it manifests in the flesh. All the attributes of love are spiritual: patient, kind, delights in good, long-suffering, hopes, rejoices with the truth, trusts. What is the fruit of the Spirit?

Romans 8:13-15 KJV
[13] For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. [14] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Notice if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Deeds of the body…are they flesh? Or Spirit?


1 Corinthians 9:14 KJV
[14] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
What is the gospel of Jesus Christ again? Death and resurrection. Based off what work?

Spirit.
Not flesh.

2 Corinthians 13:4-9 KJV
[4] For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you. [5] Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? [6] But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates. [7] Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates. [8] For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth. [9] For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.

Even your perfection.
In Christ.

Great post.
Much thought and effort.

 

[GodsGrace]

nice! i would say that
love requires more of me, and less of others, in a sense, because i am required to confess my sins, but i do not require sins to be confessed to me to forgive. So that is a hard one to learn, or at least was for me.

Sure.
You forgive for you first, and somehow it also benefits the other person in a way I don't really grasp.

 

[FHII]

My question is not a "scripture' , but I do have a question.
If it conflicts with the subject at hand I can start a new thread.

I am just mystified by something that I have NEVER ever come across before.
I was saved back in 1964 ..53 years ago...and never until this Christianity Board Site have I ever encountered Christians which are so "anti-Paul".
I must say it has totally amazed me.
The fact that we are Christians...New Covenant ...I thought meant we believed in the NT writings. Yet it seems some would discredit about 80% of it.
The New Covenant starts after the cross and renting of the veil ..breaking down the wall of separation between us and God...so the New Testament starts in Acts.

Can anyone tell me WHY so many, who that say they are NT believers are so anti Paul. I just don't understand.
Are they old testament believers or what...their NT bible must be very small!
Any 'light' on the reason why? I am clueless here.
Thanks.

Well Bygrace, I suppose its due to folks not fully believing that Paul was an Apostle. I've read some of the comments on this thread and I read things like, "I believe Jesus more than Paul". If you truly believe that Paul was an Apostle, thats an impossible statement to make.

An apostle is "one sent" [by Jesus]. There were 11 picked and chosen by Jesus personally while Jesus was in the flesh. There was one other that never knew Jesus in the flesh but was chosen by him in the spirit. .. So much that it touched the Apostle's flesh. That was Paul.

Paul desrcibed his roll a few times. He said he was sent in Christ's stead and was his ambassador. When we hear that word today, we take it lightly because of the rediculousness of politics. But a true ambassador speaks for the leader, the President or the king. His words are to be taken as if the leader was there in person saying it himself. In other words, when Paul spoke it holds just as much weight as if Jesus spoke.

Paul took that seriously. Consider this: on at least two occasions he mentioned he spoke "by permission" considering certain matters (not all matters, just certain things God let him give his opinion on). Why would he do that? Because he didn't receive that teaching directly from God (Jesus). Now... He got permission so while the Lord didn't give it to him... Well, he did say it was ok. My point is you wouldn't ask permission to say something outside of Jesus unless everything else was from Jesus.

John kind of did the same the when he sais, "I suppose if everything he did was written rhe world could not contain it". I think he's right. But it was him supposing.

So here's the bottom line. If you believe that Paul was converted and an Apostle, you have no choice to believe what he said was from Jesus. Jesus did not stop teaching when he died or when he left in Acts 1. There was more to learn and he continued teaching through Peter, Paul and John. He also taught through James, Jude, Luke, Mark and Matthew and others on a grass roots level.

If you find contradiction between these teachings, its not bad. Paul had problems with Peter, James, Mark, Titus, Barnabus too. They worked it out. But the problem is not with what they taught. Its lack of full understanding on our part.

Paul did not contradict Jesus; he finished his teaching that was given to him.

 

[Helen]

What a lovely post @FHII ..I always appreciate posts that take the time to be clear....because I can't always grasp some posts..but you wrote it clear enough for even me!
THANK YOU.
I must show my husband, he'd appreciate that.
Many blessings...Helen .

EDIT...
I liked it so much I wanted to highlight and underline things that you said.
I am going to copy it so I have it handy.

 

[mjrhealth]

@"ByGrace" . Well you did ask, was a good post.

Saul is a bit of an Enigma, in fact you got me thinking about Him some more, although he has never bin far off my mind. He is literally an example of teh old and new.

As he put it..

Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

He was by the law a good man, yet with all he had, he did not know Jesus, neither did he understand love, which was always Gods best option. A man persecuting the Lord and His church, we have a lot of Sauls around.

Yet Christ chose to use Him, showed Him that He was blind than opened His eyes so that he could see.

Mar_8:18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?

We have a lot of them too. But a lot of that is mens choices, choosing not to see, choosing not to hear.

Saul a man least qualified, became the man most qualified to preach the Gospel of the "new covenant", because he being a Pharisee under the old, understood what the new was all about.

Paul is our example, one who started in the flesh and ended in teh Spirit, where as what we see is this

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

People need to stop looking at teh past an start looking to teh future, not what He said but what is He saying

Rev 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches

Some need to take heed of this

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Paul had lots to say, but far to many see themselves like Saul as he was.

God bless you for seeking. it is those like you He desires.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well Bygrace, I suppose its due to folks not fully believing that Paul was an Apostle. I've read some of the comments on this thread and I read things like, "I believe Jesus more than Paul". If you truly believe that Paul was an Apostle, thats an impossible statement to make.

An apostle is "one sent" [by Jesus]. There were 11 picked and chosen by Jesus personally while Jesus was in the flesh. There was one other that never knew Jesus in the flesh but was chosen by him in the spirit. .. So much that it touched the Apostle's flesh. That was Paul.

Paul desrcibed his roll a few times. He said he was sent in Christ's stead and was his ambassador. When we hear that word today, we take it lightly because of the rediculousness of politics. But a true ambassador speaks for the leader, the President or the king. His words are to be taken as if the leader was there in person saying it himself. In other words, when Paul spoke it holds just as much weight as if Jesus spoke.

Paul took that seriously. Consider this: on at least two occasions he mentioned he spoke "by permission" considering certain matters (not all matters, just certain things God let him give his opinion on). Why would he do that? Because he didn't receive that teaching directly from God (Jesus). Now... He got permission so while the Lord didn't give it to him... Well, he did say it was ok. My point is you wouldn't ask permission to say something outside of Jesus unless everything else was from Jesus.

John kind of did the same the when he sais, "I suppose if everything he did was written rhe world could not contain it". I think he's right. But it was him supposing.

So here's the bottom line. If you believe that Paul was converted and an Apostle, you have no choice to believe what he said was from Jesus. Jesus did not stop teaching when he died or when he left in Acts 1. There was more to learn and he continued teaching through Peter, Paul and John. He also taught through James, Jude, Luke, Mark and Matthew and others on a grass roots level.

If you find contradiction between these teachings, its not bad. Paul had problems with Peter, James, Mark, Titus, Barnabus too. They worked it out. But the problem is not with what they taught. Its lack of full understanding on our part.

Paul did not contradict Jesus; he finished his teaching that was given to him.

1. If you're correct in your assessment, then it's correct to say that the pope takes the place of God on Earth!
He is, after all, an ambassador. As is any pastor.

2. If Paul is not accepted because he was not an Apostle, then we could also eliminate Luke and Mark from the NT.

You should rethink the reason.

BTW, I'm one who likes to quote Jesus when questions come up.

 

[bbyrd009]

Sure.
You forgive for you first, and somehow it also benefits the other person in a way I don't really grasp.

it heaps burning coals on their head, ya.

 

[GodsGrace]

it heaps burning coals on their head, ya.

That sounds nasty!!
LOL

 

[bbyrd009]

I am guessing here...are you saying that some 'have a problem' with Paul because he didn't preach how Jesus preached?
Why would he...Paul had "the next line" for the church......He added to..he did not take anything away...
Jesus CALLED him on the Damascus road and sent Ananias the prophet to confirms Pauls ministry. God gave Paul the revelation of grace and sent him to the gentiles.
To believe that Paul should preach the same as Jesus is comparing apples to oranges..they are two different callings.

So is this the reason why some Christians don't like or listen to Paul? Did I understand you correctly?

um...Paul is presented to us by the church as a Father, rather Gloriously Going About His Rounds, right, meaning that the fact that he was a wanted man with a price on his head is rarely contemplated, and that he Had It All, mansions, hot tubs, money, and babes, and just walked away from it, is hardly ever brought out.

So, we are of the world, listening to a guy who is not of the world any longer, and we are also encouraged further by sentence construction to misunderstand such phrases as "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord," which imo just cannot be properly understood by someone who has not experienced being cold and alone, and hungry, under an underpass somewhere, overcome with joy--"absent from the body." Paul had met and defeated his monster.

i guess fasting provides some decent enough analogues? Parenthood surely might too, i guess, depending. But in Paul we just have a guy on a whole nother level, see, "hey, Paul, your house is on fire" just has a completely different meaning to him than to most of us.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

it heaps burning coals on their head, ya.

Good rely, bbyrd009, A spiritual weapon against those that mean to harm and destroy you; although it is for their benifit, not yours. And as I am sure you have already acknowledged, God answers.

Ezekiel 24:10-11 KJV
[10] Heap on wood, kindle the fire, consume the flesh, and spice it well, and let the bones be burned. [11] Then set it empty upon the coals thereof, that the brass of it may be hot, and may burn, and that the filthiness of it may be molten in it, that the scum of it may be consumed.

 

[bbyrd009]

That sounds nasty!!
LOL

hmm, ya. It can be done nasty, too, there is a wrong way to do even that i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

Good rely, bbyrd009, A spiritual weapon against those that mean to harm and destroy you; although it is for their benifit, not yours. And as I am sure you have already acknowledged, God answers.

i don't know if i have, but ya, you are right. Not in our timing, or how we might expect, sometimes the lesson is not even realized until years later, or maybe it was even for someone else, a witness to the heaping of coals. Making an opportunity for the coal-heaper to like get frustrated, if they are going to, and reveal their true heart if it is not purified yet, to get superior about it maybe, whatever. That lesson takes, or took me anyway, a lot of "fake it til you make it," i'm still learning there, been on that one for like 30 years now lol.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

i don't know if i have, but ya, you are right. Not in our timing, or how we might expect, sometimes the lesson is not even realized until years later, or maybe it was even for someone else, a witness to the heaping of coals. Making an opportunity for the coal-heaper to like get frustrated, if they are going to, and reveal their true heart if it is not purified yet, to get superior about it maybe, whatever. That lesson takes, or took me anyway, a lot of "fake it til you make it," i'm still learning there, been on that one for like 30 years now lol.

Sorry, bbyrd009, you brought it up. It is too important of a matter to move on so quickly. You meantioned a wrong way: that would be in strife, vengeance, hatred and bitterness with the sole intent for God to justify and vindicate the wrong against us. The wrong is not against us, it is against Christ. I would rather step aside and allow the LORD to deal with a person. The intent would be for that person to be brought low, all their ugly sins against god to brought out into the light, open for their shame and conviction. To redeem them; not condemned them.

Romans 12:20-21 KJV
[20] Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. [21] Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

It is a promise.
And it releases a person from torment.

 

[Helen]

Amazing how we each read the NT...

he was a wanted man with a price on his head is rarely contemplated, and that he Had It All, mansions, hot tubs, money, and babes, and just walked away from it, is hardly ever brought out.

I read:- 2 Cor 11:23 "(I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. .."
That doesn't much sound like the life of Joyce Meyer, TD Jakes, or Benny Hinn to me!!
And I would think that made him well able to relate to the cold and hungry of soul and spirit. lol
I have 'lost' three friends who started by choosing which parts of the bible they wanted to believe were God inspired...obviously after about four years they no longer believed in any of the bible at all.
I talk to him in hospital one a week before he died...he no longer believed in God, or in any after life. I told him..."Ron don't give up on God now...if you are wrong, you will end up face to face with your God...you walked with him 40 years!!! If it is all rubbish and we have been hoodwinked, and there is nothing on the other side, we have nothing to lose...but if we are right, then you have everything to lose."
We had been close with that man, we had worshipped together, we had prayed together, ....as with the others...one became an atheist, one a new ager, and the other one is also dead now...that is where throwing out parts of the bible gets us...slowly slowly catch the monkey...The Enemy of our souls is alive and well.

 

[Helen]

it heaps burning coals on their head, ya.

For years I had been told in church that that quote was a negative response...
then we read a book written by a man who research the meanings of these kind of quote ...it was an amazing book...an eye opener.

That actually meant in the middle east the same as " bless those that curse you"...the very opposite to what our pastor had traditionally told us it meant!
"Coals on the head" was how they carried embers from one fire to another.
If a persons fire had gone out they could not cook or keep warm...a fire carrier would give them some embers from their coals in their container to start a new fire.
Makes sense eh ..when we get the picture of the ancient eastern life. "Heaping coals upon your head" was giving you the means of warmth and hot food .

 

[bbyrd009]

Sorry, bbyrd009, you brought it up. It is too important of a matter to move on so quickly. You meantioned a wrong way: that would be in strife, vengeance, hatred and bitterness with the sole intent for God to justify and vindicate the wrong against us.

right--exactly mirroring our perception when we start down that path, at least for most ppl i think. We start out doing it from a position of pride, and not humility iow.

I would rather step aside and allow the LORD to deal with a person. The intent would be for that person to be brought low, all their ugly sins against god to brought out into the light, open for their shame and conviction.

hmm. To this i would say that there is an advantage to overlooking a matter also, and forgiveness here comes with humility; Christ's "intent" with the woman caught in adultery is maybe a good perception there.

 

[bbyrd009]

[21] Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

It is a promise.
And it releases a person from torment.

yes, or it heaps burning coals on their heads anyway, acting from a pure heart--which anyone without an agenda might do, even by accident--will just convict, and thus infuriate, someone of a certain perspective, a mirror of salvation imo, wherein two responses can be seen, at least once one has experienced replying in humility and getting attacked for it.

The perspective is very hard to explain, one just has to go and make an apology apropos of nothing, and register the response they get from that, whether it be forgiveness and understanding, replies like "no apology necessary there," or getting attacked in reply, them agreeing how horrible your "sin" was, and even building on that or whatever. And i mean by ppl who claim to be saved, etc, on a forum, as well as IRL.

Iow if you aren't sure who you are dealing with, just apologize to them, or "overlook a matter" (IRL, as these are harder to trace in a forum), and note the response. Ppl "in hell" are going to give an appropriate response, more reliable than any professions of faith.

Just try releasing someone from torment, iow, and see what happens, you are liable to find yourself in the middle of an exorcism lol

 

[bbyrd009]

That doesn't much sound like the life of Joyce Meyer, TD Jakes, or Benny Hinn to me!!

i know, huh?

For years I had been told in church that that quote was a negative response

ya, me too lol