Questions

[bbyrd009]

Paul was free from the law, so if you are seeking Jesus inside the camp Paul is not going to make sense to you. To put that another way, if you rely on the Rule of Law to protect you, you do not need God to protect you, and we all make this choice ourselves. Buy insurance if you are led, but understand that you are declaring independence from God. Vote for your favorite King, if you believe in that stuff, but understand that this king will fight your battles for you, and you therefore are rejecting God.

Paul was a wanted man, with a price on his head, see. But his pov cannot be made to make sense to someone who would call the cops if their garage got broken into. You cannot serve two masters. Ppl with Paul issues are fence-sitters, that is literally what they are proclaiming imo.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Paul was free from the law, so if you are seeking Jesus inside the camp Paul is not going to make sense to you.

Jesus can not be found in camp Paul? Can you please explain further?

Ppl with Paul issues are fence-sitters

What do you mean Paul issues? I would really like to understand...

 

[bbyrd009]

Jesus can not be found in camp Paul? Can you please explain further?

ha sorry, "if you are seeking Jesus inside the camp, Paul is not going to make sense to you."

 

[VictoryinJesus]

ha sorry, "if you are seeking Jesus inside the camp, Paul is not going to make sense to you."

You mean...Without the camp!

 

[bbyrd009]

What do you mean Paul issues?

for this i would either need an example, or some time to recall my pov when i had Paul issues, but if i remember right they mostly center around a couple or a few verses of Scripture, where they are interpreted as being at odds with Christ, red-letter stuff. Shouldn't be too hard to search, gimme a few minutes and i'll bring back an example.

 

[bbyrd009]

You mean...Without the camp!

no, Paul would make sense in those cases i think. Most people seek Christ from the safety of a congregation of "like-minded" believers, right, and only (maybe) discover later that no "like-minded" exist, at least not in the manner that they have been told. They might then eventually go "outside the camp;" but prolly not.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

no, Paul would make sense in those cases i think. Most people seek Christ from the safety of a congregation of "like-minded" believers, right, and only (maybe) discover later that no "like-minded" exist, at least not in the manner that they have been told. They might then eventually go "outside the camp;" but prolly not.

I get what you mean. I believe we are to go without the camp. It might not be others belief. But for me; I am told to go without the camp. To feed and clothe those that are desolate. Those spit on and rejected by religion.

 

[bbyrd009]

You mean...Without the camp!

here is one, i guess, prolly the central one:

Part of the reason some believe Paul changed what Jesus taught is the perception that Paul’s teaching on grace means that obeying God’s law is no longer required. Before addressing this commonly held teaching, let’s consider what Jesus Christ taught on these important subjects.

Jesus’ teaching about law and grace
One of the sections of Scripture that clearly reveals Jesus’ teaching on law and grace is the one in which an adulteress was dragged before Him to see if He would pronounce the penalty upon her demanded by the law—death by stoning (John 8:1-11). Silent at first, He only wrote something in the dust with His finger. Pressed by the accusers to make a judgment, He told them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first” (grace was His not giving the woman what she deserved for the way she had behaved.

What did Jesus teach about law? This, too, is revealed in the above account. He did not say to the woman that she was free to carry on as before, as if she hadn’t been pardoned. He wanted her to change her way of living—to repent. Essentially, He said, “Now, go behave yourself.” Law and Grace: Jesus vs. Paul?

"When the Pharisees tried to trick Christ into saying something against the law, He did not deny the law its place. “Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, ‘Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?’

“Jesus said to him, ‘“You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.” This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself”’” (Matthew 22:35-39). Here Jesus quoted Old Testament scriptures that summarized the message of the 10 Commandments.

This confrontation presented Jesus Christ with the perfect opportunity to clarify that His death would shortly bring an end for the need of the commandments altogether. But He did not say any such thing, because it would not have been true. Putting these scriptures together leaves no doubt. Christ kept the 10 Commandments, and He taught others to do the same. And that leaves people who have a bias against the law in a difficult position. How do they reconcile Christ’s teaching to abide by the law with the notion that Paul taught that grace does away with the law?"

 

[VictoryinJesus]

for this i would either need an example, or some time to recall my pov when i had Paul issues, but if i remember right they mostly center around a couple or a few verses of Scripture, where they are interpreted as being at odds with Christ, red-letter stuff. Shouldn't be too hard to search, gimme a few minutes and i'll bring back an example.

Yes, please, post those contradictory verses.

 

[Helen]

ha sorry, "if you are seeking Jesus inside the camp, Paul is not going to make sense to you."

I am guessing here...are you saying that some 'have a problem' with Paul because he didn't preach how Jesus preached?
Why would he...Paul had "the next line" for the church......He added to..he did not take anything away...
Jesus CALLED him on the Damascus road and sent Ananias the prophet to confirms Pauls ministry. God gave Paul the revelation of grace and sent him to the gentiles.
To believe that Paul should preach the same as Jesus is comparing apples to oranges..they are two different callings.

So is this the reason why some Christians don't like or listen to Paul? Did I understand you correctly?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

here is one, i guess, prolly the central one:

Part of the reason some believe Paul changed what Jesus taught is the perception that Paul’s teaching on grace means that obeying God’s law is no longer required. Before addressing this commonly held teaching, let’s consider what Jesus Christ taught on these important subjects.

Jesus’ teaching about law and grace
One of the sections of Scripture that clearly reveals Jesus’ teaching on law and grace is the one in which an adulteress was dragged before Him to see if He would pronounce the penalty upon her demanded by the law—death by stoning (John 8:1-11). Silent at first, He only wrote something in the dust with His finger. Pressed by the accusers to make a judgment, He told them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first” (grace was His not giving the woman what she deserved for the way she had behaved.

What did Jesus teach about law? This, too, is revealed in the above account. He did not say to the woman that she was free to carry on as before, as if she hadn’t been pardoned. He wanted her to change her way of living—to repent. Essentially, He said, “Now, go behave yourself.” Law and Grace: Jesus vs. Paul?

"When the Pharisees tried to trick Christ into saying something against the law, He did not deny the law its place. “Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, ‘Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?’

“Jesus said to him, ‘“You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.” This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself”’” (Matthew 22:35-39). Here Jesus quoted Old Testament scriptures that summarized the message of the 10 Commandments.

This confrontation presented Jesus Christ with the perfect opportunity to clarify that His death would shortly bring an end for the need of the commandments altogether. But He did not say any such thing, because it would not have been true. Putting these scriptures together leaves no doubt. Christ kept the 10 Commandments, and He taught others to do the same. And that leaves people who have a bias against the law in a difficult position. How do they reconcile Christ’s teaching to abide by the law with the notion that Paul taught that grace does away with the law?"

Thank you! I am going to read and study these verses. Will get back to the thread later.

 

[Helen]

Thanks @bbyrd009 I just saw you post another explanation. Now I can see more clearly why..
So..what do those that believe like that do with their bibles!!

I have always maintained the Jesus always taught that the bar was HIGHER than the commandments. How anyone could read the sermon on the mount and believe He was requiring that I don't know. ie The law says ....BUT I SAY UNTO YOU...just one look... He raised everything higher.
How can they think that if 4000 yrs OT in trying to keep the law and sacrificing millions of sheep could only 'cover' their sin...they somehow in the NT they them selves could do better?

Jesus was laying in the line as He was headed to the cross to die as the Last and Perfect Lamb.
The OT was just the shadow of things to come...
Thanks for the posts

At least I can now see why they could believe this way...but how on earth someone who spends time with Father God could believe that way and not se that Paul was as called as John the Baptist was..
John blew the Trumpet to herald in The Lamb of God which take away the sin of the world..
And Paul blew the Trumpet of grace..showing all that the Perfect Lamb did in bring in grace.

Thanks...

 

[Helen]

@bbyrd009 ha! I see no 'difficult position' at all.

Jesus as it were engulfed the law...if we really, really believe that we are "in Him" and He is us..we KEEP THE LAW IN HIM. He IS our fulfillment .

We don't need to ad about good works...they are a given...we 'do' because we love, He Love abides within.

 

[GodsGrace]

here is one, i guess, prolly the central one:

Part of the reason some believe Paul changed what Jesus taught is the perception that Paul’s teaching on grace means that obeying God’s law is no longer required. Before addressing this commonly held teaching, let’s consider what Jesus Christ taught on these important subjects.

Jesus’ teaching about law and grace
One of the sections of Scripture that clearly reveals Jesus’ teaching on law and grace is the one in which an adulteress was dragged before Him to see if He would pronounce the penalty upon her demanded by the law—death by stoning (John 8:1-11). Silent at first, He only wrote something in the dust with His finger. Pressed by the accusers to make a judgment, He told them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first” (grace was His not giving the woman what she deserved for the way she had behaved.

What did Jesus teach about law? This, too, is revealed in the above account. He did not say to the woman that she was free to carry on as before, as if she hadn’t been pardoned. He wanted her to change her way of living—to repent. Essentially, He said, “Now, go behave yourself.” Law and Grace: Jesus vs. Paul?

"When the Pharisees tried to trick Christ into saying something against the law, He did not deny the law its place. “Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, ‘Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?’

“Jesus said to him, ‘“You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.” This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself”’” (Matthew 22:35-39). Here Jesus quoted Old Testament scriptures that summarized the message of the 10 Commandments.

This confrontation presented Jesus Christ with the perfect opportunity to clarify that His death would shortly bring an end for the need of the commandments altogether. But He did not say any such thing, because it would not have been true. Putting these scriptures together leaves no doubt. Christ kept the 10 Commandments, and He taught others to do the same. And that leaves people who have a bias against the law in a difficult position. How do they reconcile Christ’s teaching to abide by the law with the notion that Paul taught that grace does away with the law?"

Most interesting that bygrace gave you a like for the above.

So who do you suppose didn't understand you...her or me??

 

[Helen]

Most interesting that bygrace gave you a like for the above.

So who do you suppose didn't understand you...her or me??

Do you EVER get off your high horse...give it a break lady.

I have already told you WHY I give 'likes' to people... @bbyrd009 was ANSWERING a question that was asked...he took TIME to do that...he didn't have to do it...
I APPRECIATED him doing that...I SHOWED my appreciation.
Why on earth does that annoy YOU!!

 

[bbyrd009]

So..what do those that believe like that do with their bibles!!

ha, they let other ppl handle that part, i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

Most interesting that bygrace gave you a like for the above.

So who do you suppose didn't understand you...her or me??

well, i don't do much supposing any more, tbh. I have a perception that is surely not complete yet, myself, and i accept that others' perceptions are different.

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you EVER get off your high horse...give it a break lady.

I have already told you WHY I give 'likes' to people... @bbyrd009 was ANSWERING a question that was asked...he took TIME to do that...he didn't have to do it...
I APPRECIATED him doing that...I SHOWED my appreciation.
Why on earth does that annoy YOU!!

Calm down.
God loves you.

 

[ScottA]

I am just mystified by something that I have NEVER ever come across before.
I was saved back in 1964 ..53 years ago...and never until this Christianity Board Site have I ever encountered Christians which are so "anti-Paul".
I must say it has totally amazed me.
The fact that we are Christians...New Covenant ...I thought meant we believed in the NT writings. Yet it seems some would discredit about 80% of it.
The New Covenant starts after the cross and renting of the veil ..breaking down the wall of separation between us and God...so the New Testament starts in Acts.

Can anyone tell me WHY so many, who that say they are NT believers are so anti Paul.

The answer is summed up in these two verses, as the conflict between the flesh and the spirit, and those who live accordingly, being children of the flesh or children of the spirit of God:

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

here is one, i guess, prolly the central one:

Part of the reason some believe Paul changed what Jesus taught is the perception that Paul’s teaching on grace means that obeying God’s law is no longer required. Before addressing this commonly held teaching, let’s consider what Jesus Christ taught on these important subjects.

Jesus’ teaching about law and grace
One of the sections of Scripture that clearly reveals Jesus’ teaching on law and grace is the one in which an adulteress was dragged before Him to see if He would pronounce the penalty upon her demanded by the law—death by stoning (John 8:1-11). Silent at first, He only wrote something in the dust with His finger. Pressed by the accusers to make a judgment, He told them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first” (grace was His not giving the woman what she deserved for the way she had behaved.

What did Jesus teach about law? This, too, is revealed in the above account. He did not say to the woman that she was free to carry on as before, as if she hadn’t been pardoned. He wanted her to change her way of living—to repent. Essentially, He said, “Now, go behave yourself.” Law and Grace: Jesus vs. Paul?

"When the Pharisees tried to trick Christ into saying something against the law, He did not deny the law its place. “Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, ‘Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?’

“Jesus said to him, ‘“You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.” This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself”’” (Matthew 22:35-39). Here Jesus quoted Old Testament scriptures that summarized the message of the 10 Commandments.

This confrontation presented Jesus Christ with the perfect opportunity to clarify that His death would shortly bring an end for the need of the commandments altogether. But He did not say any such thing, because it would not have been true. Putting these scriptures together leaves no doubt. Christ kept the 10 Commandments, and He taught others to do the same. And that leaves people who have a bias against the law in a difficult position. How do they reconcile Christ’s teaching to abide by the law with the notion that Paul taught that grace does away with the law?"

You know I am going to attempt to prove Paul's legitimacy. Just because there seems to be a contradiction between Jesus' teaching and Paul's, doesn't mean there is one. It could be we misunderstand. Don't feel obligated to reply bbyrd009; it is not necessarily directed at you, but to anyone. If I twist the scripture and force them to mean something they don't to support my own belief, then please explain why they mean something else.

I agree with ByGrace that Jesus purposely set the bar higher. Love is higher than condemnation. We argue love requires less. Love requires more.

John 8:11-12 KJV
[11] She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. [12] Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

the light of life being: the Holy Spirit
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

There is only one way to be perfect.
Only one way to "go, and sin no more".
And the one and only way was going to the cross, crucified, and raised from the dead.
He who believes in Him; is born of God and indwelt with Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.

Paul wrote seven epistles(letters) to seven churches, correct?
Revelation (The Revelation of Jesus Christ given to John) also speaks to seven churches.
Are we wise to discount Paul's epistles(inspired by the Holy Spirit)?