Rapture and End Time Beliefs

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bbyrd009

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Why did God rapture Enoch? Why did God rapture Elijah?
And, why isn't that term used in those passages? Oh, because those aren't rapture, duh.
Don't worry, ppl with agendas do that to Scripture all the time, every day. You are forgiven too ok

Strong's Hebrew: 5591b. searah -- a tempest, storm wind
and
Strong's Hebrew: 8064. שָׁמַ֫יִם (shamayim) -- heaven, sky
have been warped out of all context here, but we could examine these if you like i guess, they are pretty much pertinent to the thread. "Whirlwind" symbology is...not unknown, and the term chosen there translated as "heaven" is also the result of scribes, who are even catering to you, see
nah, coming from you, totally expected.
You have an agenda here after all right; God is required to make you immortal some kind of way, huh
Yet the verses that speak of it, say just the opposite. (1 Cor. 15:51-55).
ah, no Rapture there either bro, sorry; dunno what liar you been listening to, prolly ol' Hal i guess
so look, here is a comprehensive listing of every "rapture" reference in Scripture, ok,
Bible Search: rapture
which you might notice are not cooperating with your agenda at all, see
And Hal Lindsey wrote another book at about the same time as the "The Late Great Planet Earth", called "The Liberation of Planet Earth" which was more a study of the book of Romans. Great book.
no less retarded and hypocritical than any of his work i guess. What a buffoon that guy is
Cult of Sol takes to him like kids to candy huh

welcome back btw, hope you had a nice Turkey Day?
 
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Naomi25

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Absolutely. I think it essential we be talking about these things. As you know, I am an Adventist. We Adventists see our "mission statement" summarised in Revelation 14:6-12. Conversing about eschatology...discussing prophecy (and its historical fulfilments) prepares us for what is about to take place. It is as fully a part of the gospel as the cross and resurrection. Though we may not know many of the details because situations and circumstances change, what we do know is that the characters in the great drama remain constant. The actors in the play according to Revelation are still there at the very end. just as they were there 2000 years ago...5000 years ago. Babel began as a unifying effort to thwart God's judgements and authority. Babylon the Great is merely today's edition. History repeats.

Yes, although somewhere in there is an article giving an overview of Daniel. I am not very good at sorting the tech on that blog...but the search engine works well....those links aren't exactly where I would like them to be, and the format is a bit messy to my liking. But there's so many articles I've posted n there now it has become a huge task to sort it. I'm amazed, and grateful to God, that you are finding you're way around. I will try and find that one article, and you can begin perhaps with the particular characteristics after...The Beasts of Daniel…an overview.
Thanks heaps for giving it your time. :)

Well, when I do have a bit of spare time, I don't mind doing a bit of reading! Thus far I've found your articles interesting and logical. I think one question I had, in regards to the one on the Antichrist was: you say that "this entity also claim to be a king? Does it claim authority as a secular power?"...in regards to the RCC. I'm not sure how I see this playing out, and was hoping you might spell it out a bit for me. Ta.
And, well...it's quite possible that when it comes down to it I may disagree with you. We know that on some things I already do! However, I don't think I know everything and it would be foolish of me to dismiss out of hand 'new' ideas just because they aren't taught in my church. If we do our best to check things via scripture, listen to the confirmation of the Holy Spirit, I think perhaps marvelous growth is possible. I like to go forward with that approach as much as possible. Sometimes I knee-jerk to "old and safe is best" and fail, mind you! But I love learning about God, and learning new ideas. As long as they line up with scripture, I'm in!
 
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brakelite

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Well, when I do have a bit of spare time, I don't mind doing a bit of reading! Thus far I've found your articles interesting and logical. I think one question I had, in regards to the one on the Antichrist was: you say that "this entity also claim to be a king? Does it claim authority as a secular power?"...in regards to the RCC. I'm not sure how I see this playing out, and was hoping you might spell it out a bit for me. Ta.
And, well...it's quite possible that when it comes down to it I may disagree with you. We know that on some things I already do! However, I don't think I know everything and it would be foolish of me to dismiss out of hand 'new' ideas just because they aren't taught in my church. If we do our best to check things via scripture, listen to the confirmation of the Holy Spirit, I think perhaps marvelous growth is possible. I like to go forward with that approach as much as possible. Sometimes I knee-jerk to "old and safe is best" and fail, mind you! But I love learning about God, and learning new ideas. As long as they line up with scripture, I'm in!
Hi Naomi. That 'kingly' concept for the papacy is an interesting and deep subject, and goes way way back into history when the RCC used that forged document .The Donation of Constantine as a pretext for usurping civil authority in Rome. It from then, ebbed and flowed throughout history until today the Pope is king of independantt Vatican City/state. But there are certainly serious moves behind the scenes to place the Pope as the head of the global NWO. To be head of the planet, both in religious and civil matters, for the papacy is a dream come true. This they will have, for a short time. And it will be America that will give it to them on a platter forged in persecution. But you will find all that in more detail in the articles. God bless.
 

Keraz

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Why did God rapture Enoch? Why did God rapture Elijah?

How odd. You associate the Rapture with defeat and no victory. Yet the verses that speak of it, say just the opposite. (1 Cor. 15:51-55).
Enoch, Elijah and the 2 Witnesses are special cases. In no way can they be used to promote a general rapture to heaven of the Church. It is doubtful anyway, that they entered the Third heaven of God's Throne room.

Your quote of 1 Corinthians 15:51-55, is plainly a prophecy of the Great White Throne Judgement, because only then is Death no more, the final Victory over Death. Revelation 21:1-7 Then God comes to dwell with mankind, therefore heaven comes to us.

We have work for God to do here; the idea of going to heaven is a Satanic lie, made to divert Christians from their appointed tasks.
 

Stranger

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Enoch, Elijah and the 2 Witnesses are special cases. In no way can they be used to promote a general rapture to heaven of the Church. It is doubtful anyway, that they entered the Third heaven of God's Throne room.

Your quote of 1 Corinthians 15:51-55, is plainly a prophecy of the Great White Throne Judgement, because only then is Death no more, the final Victory over Death. Revelation 21:1-7 Then God comes to dwell with mankind, therefore heaven comes to us.

We have work for God to do here; the idea of going to heaven is a Satanic lie, made to divert Christians from their appointed tasks.

Well, the Rapture is a special case also. So what?

No, death is no more for those who are raptured. There is no Great White Throne Judgement in (1 Cor. 15:51-55).

Yes, we have work to do here. And yes Jesus Christ will come again and rule on earth for 1000 years. But, for the Church, Heaven is our home. Not earth.

Stranger
 

Keraz

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Heaven is our home. Not earth.
You are in serious error. Nowhere does the Bible say heaven is our home.

The Bible does tell us about people going to live in heaven. There has been a few special cases; like Elijah and just before Jesus Returns, the two witnesses will be resurrected and taken to heaven.

But any prophecy of a general ‘rapture to heaven’ of the Church in the end times, cannot to be found in the Bible.

The prophecy of Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, is about the Return of Jesus, when He will gather those faithful Christians who remain alive then. Proved by Matthew 24:30-31 It will be a transportation from where they are on earth, to where Jesus is: in the clouds, then to Jerusalem. NOT a spiritual change for them as yet.


There is no scripture that says there will be a ‘rapture’, but there is plenty saying such a thing is impossible:

John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there.

John 7:34 Where I go, you cannot come....

John 8:21-23 Your home is on earth......

John 17:15 I do not pray for You to take My followers out of the world, but keep them from the evil one.

Revelation 2:25-26 Hold fast to what you have until I Return. To those who are Victorious, to those who persevere in doing My will until the end, I will give them authority over the nations. Revelation 5:9-10


We will all be here to face the great and terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath:

Luke 21:35....that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over.

Jeremiah 25:29...I am summoning a Sword against all the inhabitants of the earth.

1 Corinthians 1:7-8 There is no gift you lack, while you wait expectantly for Jesus to Return. He will keep you firm in your faith until the end.......


We Christians will be the people God always wanted in the holy Land:

Psalms 37:29 The righteous will possess the Land and will live there forever.

Zechariah 8:7-8 I am about to rescue My people and bring them back to Zion. They will be My people and I will be their God.

Ezekiel 34:11-16 I will search for My sheep from where they are scattered on the Day of cloud and disaster. They will settle in Israel and become prosperous.

Romans 9:24-26 We [Christians] are God’s people, called out of Jew and Gentile.

You were not My people, now I call you My people and the unloved; beloved. In the same place, [in the holy Land] where Israel was told; you are no longer My people, you will be called; the Sons of the Living God.

I know how the teaching of a ‘rapture’ has permeated the Church, For many, it is the only end times scenario they have heard, so for those Christians, it is very difficult to consider another outcome.
But serious thought must be given to the scriptures presented above and know that many pastors and Bible scholars dispute the validity of a ‘rapture.

Why want to go to heaven? We have an incredible destiny awaiting us here, where we belong.
 
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brakelite

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Sometimes it's hard for me to actually put myself in the headspace of a person like that. I honestly struggle to imagine what it would be like NOT to believe in God..
I believe passionately that the scenario which in the last days divides the sheep from the goats is far more subtle than the division between believing in God, or not. There will be millions who willingly accept the mark of the beast who will swear on the Bible their undying belief in God.
 

Naomi25

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I believe passionately that the scenario which in the last days divides the sheep from the goats is far more subtle than the division between believing in God, or not. There will be millions who willingly accept the mark of the beast who will swear on the Bible their undying belief in God.
Truly? I certainly do see some of that. Probably more than I'd like. But when I consider the world we live in, and the cultures and trends, I see godlessness growing and spreading faster than the common cold. I know, of course, that these things change, and, that given we could have hundreds of years left before Christ comes, things could swing the other way. But...I don't know. Christians have been hated in many Countries for hundreds of years, we in the "West" have been lucky. But the ambivilance we have been shelted under is fading. People no longer 'don't care' about us and our 'strange beliefs'. They hate us. Which is sort of ironic, because they hate us because they think we preach hate. But more and more it is becoming acceptable for these people to express their hate and opposition for us with threats, screams, accusations and bullying that leads to loss of financial security or friends. It's only going to get worse.
These people don't claim God. They claim 'what feels right', or good, or moral, or trending on twitter, or getting the most likes, or whatever. They are shallow, selfish.
HiddenInHim made a point to me a little while ago that I thought was a good one. If the Antichrist is supposed to persecute the Church...persecute the people of God, how can he be "of them"? I know you see AC as the RCC, which changes the angle here a bit, but it may still be a valid question. The papacy has been working to bring more unity between the RCC and Protestantism and other faiths. Wouldn't they need to set themselves up as The Only Faith?
Sorry...just rambling...muddling through some ideas. It's been a long day!
 
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brakelite

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Truly? I certainly do see some of that. Probably more than I'd like. But when I consider the world we live in, and the cultures and trends, I see godlessness growing and spreading faster than the common cold. I know, of course, that these things change, and, that given we could have hundreds of years left before Christ comes, things could swing the other way. But...I don't know. Christians have been hated in many Countries for hundreds of years, we in the "West" have been lucky. But the ambivilance we have been shelted under is fading. People no longer 'don't care' about us and our 'strange beliefs'. They hate us. Which is sort of ironic, because they hate us because they think we preach hate. But more and more it is becoming acceptable for these people to express their hate and opposition for us with threats, screams, accusations and bullying that leads to loss of financial security or friends. It's only going to get worse.
These people don't claim God. They claim 'what feels right', or good, or moral, or trending on twitter, or getting the most likes, or whatever. They are shallow, selfish.
HiddenInHim made a point to me a little while ago that I thought was a good one. If the Antichrist is supposed to persecute the Church...persecute the people of God, how can he be "of them"? I know you see AC as the RCC, which changes the angle here a bit, but it may still be a valid question. The papacy has been working to bring more unity between the RCC and Protestantism and other faiths. Wouldn't they need to set themselves up as The Only Faith?
Sorry...just rambling...muddling through some ideas. It's been a long day!
When reading Revelation, in fact we could include all of scripture going back to Genesis, it strikes me that despite all the diversity in religious thought and persuasion that we have in the world, everything boils down to a war between just two sides. Babylon and Jerusalem. Babylon as a literal City no longer exists of course, so it's figurative. Spiritual Babylon. So we must also consider Jerusalem as also not literal, but spiritual. So the entire planet at the time of the end will belong to one side or the other. And the mark is the dividing point. But notice one very important thing. In Revelation 13:12-14 read that the second beast (which I believe is the US) forces the world to adhere to a particular form of worship, with fire from heaven, an miracles!!! Where do you read of that in scripture? I mean the real thing, because the one in revelation is a counterfeit? Right? In other words both sides in the controversy ate claiming to have the same thing... The holy Spirit in the form o f revival!
Where do we read in scripture of a similar dispute? One over worship. A dispute between two brothers, both worshipping the same God, but ending in the death of one at the hands of the other? And did not Europe experience that very thing throughout the dark ages? History doors repeat.
 

Stranger

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You are in serious error. Nowhere does the Bible say heaven is our home.

The Bible does tell us about people going to live in heaven. There has been a few special cases; like Elijah and just before Jesus Returns, the two witnesses will be resurrected and taken to heaven.

But any prophecy of a general ‘rapture to heaven’ of the Church in the end times, cannot to be found in the Bible.

The prophecy of Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, is about the Return of Jesus, when He will gather those faithful Christians who remain alive then. Proved by Matthew 24:30-31 It will be a transportation from where they are on earth, to where Jesus is: in the clouds, then to Jerusalem. NOT a spiritual change for them as yet.


There is no scripture that says there will be a ‘rapture’, but there is plenty saying such a thing is impossible:

John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there.

John 7:34 Where I go, you cannot come....

John 8:21-23 Your home is on earth......

John 17:15 I do not pray for You to take My followers out of the world, but keep them from the evil one.

Revelation 2:25-26 Hold fast to what you have until I Return. To those who are Victorious, to those who persevere in doing My will until the end, I will give them authority over the nations. Revelation 5:9-10


We will all be here to face the great and terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath:

Luke 21:35....that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over.

Jeremiah 25:29...I am summoning a Sword against all the inhabitants of the earth.

1 Corinthians 1:7-8 There is no gift you lack, while you wait expectantly for Jesus to Return. He will keep you firm in your faith until the end.......


We Christians will be the people God always wanted in the holy Land:

Psalms 37:29 The righteous will possess the Land and will live there forever.

Zechariah 8:7-8 I am about to rescue My people and bring them back to Zion. They will be My people and I will be their God.

Ezekiel 34:11-16 I will search for My sheep from where they are scattered on the Day of cloud and disaster. They will settle in Israel and become prosperous.

Romans 9:24-26 We [Christians] are God’s people, called out of Jew and Gentile.

You were not My people, now I call you My people and the unloved; beloved. In the same place, [in the holy Land] where Israel was told; you are no longer My people, you will be called; the Sons of the Living God.

I know how the teaching of a ‘rapture’ has permeated the Church, For many, it is the only end times scenario they have heard, so for those Christians, it is very difficult to consider another outcome.
But serious thought must be given to the scriptures presented above and know that many pastors and Bible scholars dispute the validity of a ‘rapture.

Why want to go to heaven? We have an incredible destiny awaiting us here, where we belong.

Another BreadOfLife ready made list man. I am not going to answer your whole list, but I will answer the first few to show how mistaken you are.

(John 3:13) doesn't say what you said. It says, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." It doesn't say 'no one goes to heaven'. Jesus had just told Nicodemus that He had been teaching 'earthly' things and that he did not believe Him. (3:12) What are those earthly things? They are the prophecies concerning the Kingdom and the Messiah to come written by the prophets. But the Jews and Nicodemus had rejected those things.

Then, when Christ tells Nicodemus abut the new-birth, Nicodemus doesn't understand and asks 'how can these things be'. (3:9) The 'how' of these things concerns 'heavenly teaching' and to have that one must have access to heaven to get it. And Christ did have that as that is where He is from as the Son. "no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." No prophets went to heaven to obtain their information. Only Christ has been in Heaven and so can teach heavenly things. But why, when they reject the earthly things? When they reject the things the prophets have told them of the earthly Kingdom?

But Christ will take His people to Heaven where He is from. (John 14:2-3) "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." That place and mansions are in Heaven.

And then after the crucifixion, when Christ descended into hell, the paradise section of Abraham's bosom, He freed all there and took them back to Heaven. (Eph. 4:8-10) "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"

So, now, after the blood has been shed, man has a place in Heaven.

As to (John 7:34), Jesus is talking to the unbelieving Pharisees. (32-33) Simple context. Of course they cannot come where He is going. The same with (John 8:21).

This is why I hate ready made lists. It looks so authoritative, yet is full of deception.

Stranger
 

Keraz

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This is why I hate ready made lists. It looks so authoritative, yet is full of deception.
I don't buy any of your 'explanations'. When anyone says that parts of the Bible teachings don't apply to them, then they are on a very slippery slope!

It is the 'rapture to heaven' theory that is the shocking deception.
We are earth creatures. Heaven is not our place, God made angels to serve Him there.

You have believed a lie, we Christians have un finished work for God to do here; escape is not an option. Matthew 28:19
 
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Stranger

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I don't buy any of your 'explanations'. When anyone says that parts of the Bible teachings don't apply to them, then they are on a very slippery slope!

It is the 'rapture to heaven' theory that is the shocking deception.
We are earth creatures. Heaven is not our place, God made angels to serve Him there.

You have believed a lie, we Christians have un finished work for God to do here; escape is not an option. Matthew 28:19

You don't have to buy them. But they are there and they are legitimate. Much of it involves simple context which evidently you pay no attention to.

No deception concerning the Rapture. (1 Cor. 15:51-53) (1 Thess. 4:13-17)

We Christians are heavnly creatures on the earth. We sojourn. The earth is not our home. We are pilgrims and strangers here. Heaven is our home.

We are not angels. We are men. You are confused. Stick around, we will sort it out.

Stranger
 

Naomi25

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When reading Revelation, in fact we could include all of scripture going back to Genesis, it strikes me that despite all the diversity in religious thought and persuasion that we have in the world, everything boils down to a war between just two sides. Babylon and Jerusalem. Babylon as a literal City no longer exists of course, so it's figurative. Spiritual Babylon. So we must also consider Jerusalem as also not literal, but spiritual. So the entire planet at the time of the end will belong to one side or the other. And the mark is the dividing point. But notice one very important thing. In Revelation 13:12-14 read that the second beast (which I believe is the US) forces the world to adhere to a particular form of worship, with fire from heaven, an miracles!!! Where do you read of that in scripture? I mean the real thing, because the one in revelation is a counterfeit? Right? In other words both sides in the controversy ate claiming to have the same thing... The holy Spirit in the form o f revival!
Where do we read in scripture of a similar dispute? One over worship. A dispute between two brothers, both worshipping the same God, but ending in the death of one at the hands of the other? And did not Europe experience that very thing throughout the dark ages? History doors repeat.
Hmmm, there are some really good points here that I agree with. Revelation does indeed tell us that history is a "tale of two cities", as it were. But here's a question. If Rome, as it were, is the AC, why is the US going to be the second beast? Do you think they will be working together? How likely is that outside the pages of scipture and metaphorical images? In fact, if any growing superpower (Country wise) would make me wonder about forced worship, I often look at China, and it's "social program". The millions of cameras they have which loop back to a persons "point score", which then tells them if they have certain rights based on that score. That's scary. And I just can't imagine the US getting something like that off the ground! Not with the American people as they are at the moment!
 

Keraz

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You don't have to buy them. But they are there and they are legitimate. Much of it involves simple context which evidently you pay no attention to.
The context that you ignore is the entire teachings of Jesus. How He came to offer Salvation to all who will accept it.
We Christians are now the Israelites of God, His Overcomers and the Victorious ones, as seen in each of the 7 church's of Revelation 2 & 3.
No deception concerning the Rapture. (1 Cor. 15:51-53) (1 Thess. 4:13-17)
Those 2 scriptures prove how deceived you and all the 'rapture to heaven' believers are.
Neither of them say anyone goes to heaven. 1 Thess 4:13-17 is just a prophecy about the Return of Jesus, when He sends out His angels to gather His own people to Himself. Matthew 24:31
1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is another prophecy; about what will happen at the Great White Throne Judgement. Only then, is Death done away with and those whose names are Written in the Book of Life are given immortality.
We Christians are heavnly creatures on the earth. We sojourn. The earth is not our home. We are pilgrims and strangers here. Heaven is our home.
Yes, we Christians are a people apart and our proof of citizenship of the Kingdom is kept in heaven. But we never go to live there, tho eventually God will dwell with mankind, therefore heaven comes to us. Revelation 21:1-7
You are confused. Stick around, we will sort it out.
I say: You are deceived and confused and I doubt we will sort it out, as you are locked into your beliefs and I will never compromise the Word, so only as things finally happen will the truths be known to all.
 

Keraz

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Hmmm, there are some really good points here that I agree with. Revelation does indeed tell us that history is a "tale of two cities", as it were. But here's a question. If Rome, as it were, is the AC, why is the US going to be the second beast? Do you think they will be working together? How likely is that outside the pages of scipture and metaphorical images? In fact, if any growing superpower (Country wise) would make me wonder about forced worship, I often look at China, and it's "social program". The millions of cameras they have which loop back to a persons "point score", which then tells them if they have certain rights based on that score. That's scary. And I just can't imagine the US getting something like that off the ground! Not with the American people as they are at the moment!
What you and most people fail to see, is the tremendous change in all the world that will happen on the forthcoming Day of the Lord's wrath.
The prophesies repeatedly say that all military powers will be broken, Isaiah 34:2, Hosea 10:13-14, Haggai 2:21-22, Psalms 46:9, + and millions will die, esp in the Middle East, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 1:14-18
We will lose all the electronic technology that you worry about; no satellites; they will fall like ripe figs, Revelation 6:12-17 and the world will be enveloped in flames. Zephaniah 3:8, 2 Peter 3:8
The USA will no longer be dreaded far and near..... Isaiah 18:1-7
 

Naomi25

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What you and most people fail to see, is the tremendous change in all the world that will happen on the forthcoming Day of the Lord's wrath.
The prophesies repeatedly say that all military powers will be broken, Isaiah 34:2, Hosea 10:13-14, Haggai 2:21-22, Psalms 46:9, + and millions will die, esp in the Middle East, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 1:14-18
We will lose all the electronic technology that you worry about; no satellites; they will fall like ripe figs, Revelation 6:12-17 and the world will be enveloped in flames. Zephaniah 3:8, 2 Peter 3:8
The USA will no longer be dreaded far and near..... Isaiah 18:1-7
Did I fail to see that? I thought I was merely musing about the state of things now and where things might head. If you truly want to get into a conversation about how I see the end unfolding, fine, cool, I welcome that. But do we honestly need to start such a conversation by throwing around opinions of character flaws?
 

Keraz

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Did I fail to see that? I thought I was merely musing about the state of things now and where things might head. If you truly want to get into a conversation about how I see the end unfolding, fine, cool, I welcome that. But do we honestly need to start such a conversation by throwing around opinions of character flaws?
My apologies, Naomi. I do not mean to question your character.
But I do question your and most other Christians ability to discern what the Bible Prophets wrote. All of them, including Jonah tell of how the wrath of God can and will fall upon the ungodly peoples.
Jesus said that He would come unexpectedly, in fire and destroy His enemies. As John prophesied; Matthew 3:11-12

We who study the prophesies should know about and be prepared for it.