n2thelight
Well-Known Member
So when Christ told them not 2 leave until they received the Holy Spirit,could He had returned before then?Stranger said:The coming of the Holy Spirit upon Israel is prophetic.
Stranger
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
So when Christ told them not 2 leave until they received the Holy Spirit,could He had returned before then?Stranger said:The coming of the Holy Spirit upon Israel is prophetic.
Stranger
Once Christ left, the promise of the rapture was in place. Yes, the rapture could have occurred before then. Just because we know it didn't, doesn't mean it couldn't have.n2thelight said:So when Christ told them not 2 leave until they received the Holy Spirit,could He had returned before then?
If that's the case,Christ would have been a liar.Stranger said:Once Christ left, the promise of the rapture was in place. Yes, the rapture could have occurred before then. Just because we know it didn't, doesn't mean it couldn't have.
Stranger
Because had He returned before they received the Holy Spirit,Him telling them to wait on the Holy Spirit would have been a lie.Stranger said:Why?
Stranger
None of your verses remove the promise of the rapture. None of your verses makes the rapture dependent on something to happen first before it occurs.n2thelight said:Because had He returned before they received the Holy Spirit,Him telling them to wait on the Holy Spirit would have been a lie.
Also the below verse
John 21:18 "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not ."
Christ told Peter how he would die,if He came back before then,that also would had been a lie....
I beg to differ,Christ never promised to take anyone to Heaven.The only way one makes it to Heaven is if they die first,in which case Christ brings them back when He comes....Stranger said:None of your verses remove the promise of the rapture. None of your verses makes the rapture dependent on something to happen first before it occurs.
Prophecy and it's fulfillment is from God. God did not destroy Nineveh in 40 days as Jonah said. Jonah 3:4 " Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown." If He decided to come back before Peter's death, then Peter is delivered from that death.
Once Christ left, his promise to come back and take His people with Him to Heaven was in place and could occur at any time.
Stranger
Enoch didn't die first. Hebrews 11:5 "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God translated him:..."n2thelight said:I beg to differ,Christ never promised to take anyone to Heaven.The only way one makes it to Heaven is if they die first,in which case Christ brings them back when He comes....
The problem you all have is in the attempt to seperate Israel from the Church,so you can have the Jew's here during the trib,forgetting the fact that there's only 2 groups of people,those with Christ and those against Him...
The Jew's who only make up a portion of Israel if not saved,are just like anybody else....
Enoch and Elijah were different..Stranger said:Enoch didn't die first. Hebrews 11:5 "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God translated him:..."
Elijah didn't die first. 2 Kings 2:1 " And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind,...."
2 Kings 2:11 "...and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
John 14:2-3 'In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."
Yes the lost and saved are two groups of people on earth. But, so is the Jew, the Gentile, and the Church. 1Cor. 10:32 " Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:"
Stranger
You bet they are different. They were taken to heaven before dying. You might say they were 'raptured'. But you don't have to.n2thelight said:Enoch and Elijah were different..
Okay so who are the Jew's,who is the Church,and who are the Gentiles?
Definitions on each,as it's very important...
The point Im trying to make is ,you are either with God or against Him,and Christ is the only way to Him,no one is special....
Enoch and Elijah were different, because God had His reasons to take them. They may be the 2 witnesses of Rev 11:3.Stranger said:You bet they are different. They were taken to heaven before dying. You might say they were 'raptured'. But you don't have to.
And what of the promise in John 14:2-3? That is a promise that Christ will return and take His people to Himself in Heaven where He is.
The point you were making was that there were only two groups of people, the saved and lost. But Scripture gives more than two. It gives the Jews, the Church, and the Gentiles.
The Jews are Jews. They can be saved or lost Jews, depending on the context.
The Gentiles are all people of all nations who are not Jews.
The Church is the body of believers since Pentacost, and consists of both Jew and Gentile.
Stranger
keras said:Enoch and Elijah were different, because God had His reasons to take them. They may be the 2 witnesses of Rev 11:3.
But since them, everyone, including Moses, Stephen, Peter, etc, and the millions of martyrs since have died and their souls are kept under the Altar. Why should you or any Christian now be taken away from the testing imes to come? 1 Peter 4:12
It is only by reading into and mis-applying the scriptures, that a 'rapture to heaven' is made out. John 14:1-3 does NOT say people will be taken to heaven, it says they will be taken to where Jesus is, that will be in Jerusalem, on earth. As Matthew 24:31 says.
There is not 3 types of people in God' sight. Only 2: the saved and the lost
There are many prophesies telling of the forthcoming judgement of Judah. Only a remnant of Messianic Jews will be saved. Isaiah 29:1-4, Jeremiah 12:14, Ezekiel 21:1-15, Matthew 21:43
Please tell me the reason God wants His church in heaven. I don't see it anywhere, but I do see where He has work for His people on earth.Stranger said:What does that matter? Of course God had a reason. Just like He has a reason for rapturing the Church. He raptured them, Enoch and Elijah, and He can and will rapture the Church.
John 14:1-3 does say we are taken to Heaven. Where did Christ go? He went to Heaven to build in His Fathers House a place for His people. If that is not Heaven, what is?
There are three types of people as I just showed in 1Cor. 10:32 " ...to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God."
Stranger
Oh! So now we are limited from what you cannot see! NEWS FLASH: Your lack of vision does not determine the truth.keras said:His church in heaven. I don't see it anywhere
One: it's John 14:1-3, and,keras said:In John 13:1-3 - church goes to heaven, is a serious misapplication of what is actually meant.
Kind of reminds me or Replacement Theology, and another reason rabbi keras takes the promises for Israel, and transposes them to the Church.keras said:They rejected it and become the same as the ungodly gentiles in God's sight.
There is only one Christian people of God.
So, you see, WHEN you misappropriate the promises for the natural nation of Israel, fulfilled in the Millennium, to the Church - then you don't need a Rapture - which is IN the Bible - and you don't need Heaven.keras said:Time to really think whether the idea of a rapture outta here is right, because it sure doesn't conform to God's plans for His people.
One: it's John 14:1-3, and,
Two: it's a literal reading.
So rabbi keras now wants us to read it the way he reads it, and he says what it says it not what it says.
So, you see, WHEN you misappropriate the promises for the natural nation of Israel, fulfilled in the Millennium, to the Church - then you don't need a Rapture - which is IN the Bible - and you don't need Heaven.
And this would be a figurative reading.n2thelight said:It means a place to rest and abide where there is no trouble. Friend, this resting place is in Christ and the Father, that is the resting.
He is returning to earth to receive His own, and be with them here on earth during the Millennium age Kingdom.
Our resting place is in His Word, and under the shed blood of Jesus.
What do you mean "in the wilderness?"n2thelight said:Who or what was the Church in the wilderness?
Acts 7:38 "This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the Angel Which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our father: who received the lively oracles to give unto us."Marcus O'Reillius said:What do you mean "in the wilderness?"