Rapture ... soon?

[Ronald David Bruno]

Bro. MacArthur appears to have overlooked a few things.

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful obedient saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
Judah means “praise” (Genesis 29:35)
Reuben means “see, a Son” (Genesis 29:32)
Gad means “fortunate” (Genesis 30:11)
Asher means “happy” (Genesis 30:13)
Naphtali means “wrestling” (Genesis 30:8)
Manasseh means “forgetting” (Genesis 41:51)
Simeon means “heard” (Genesis 29:33)
Levi means “attached” (Genesis 29:34)
Issachar means “wages” (Genesis 30:18)
Zebulon means “dwelling” (Genesis 30:20)
Joseph means “He will add” (Genesis 30:24)
Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Genesis 35:17–18)

Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:

Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)
Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.

Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)
The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…Christ and His Church are written all over the 144,000.

I guess you did not read the OP.
>>PREMILLENNIAL SAFE ZONE, NO AMILLENNIALS PLEASE!
I can't enforce this, but I can choose to not respond. You can spin the wheels of other posters though.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Q. Past, present, future, who is: "all Israel will be saved"?
A. It's more extensive than you can imagine.
It even involves the symbolic 144,000, whereby they once were in "Remembrance" before God [KJV Malachi.3:16], "under the altar", waiting for the Promise to come.
KJV Rev. 6:9-11.

But now the Promise CAME, and ever since Jesus resurrection [KJV Mat. 27:52-54] the symbolic 144,000 HAVE received their white robes, the Promise of the Gift of the Holy Spirit, but now they are resting yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled [who are they that are of the "great multitude"].
KJV Rev. 19:6

144,000 that you have invented a clever spiritual back door to erase the bible verses describing them.

You left off that they are FIRSTFRIT JEWS NUNBERED 2 DIFFERENT WAYS so you would not attempt to dilute the bible.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I relate to your way of understanding the scriptures. I also believe that we should not read Revelation chronologically.
Please see my post here #1531.
You might understand and appreciate my view of who all of Israel is, and how the 144,000 were of Old Covenant Israel, and all of the Great Multitude are of the New covenant, consisting of ONLY born again/converted Christians, where there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, but rather they are NEW creatures in Christ Jesus.

The 144000 are future Jewish messianic, Jews out of the 12 tribes. As the Bible clearly states
The enumerable number are those that are left behind and beheaded by the Antichrist, they came out of the great tribulation because they died in the great tribulation, every single one of them mardered.
They are the left behind ones of Matthew 24 and Matthew 25.

 

[covenantee]

I guess you did not read the OP.
>>PREMILLENNIAL SAFE ZONE, NO AMILLENNIALS PLEASE!
I can't enforce this, but I can choose to not respond. You can spin the wheels of other posters though.

There's no reason for me to read it, and that's not the process for inclusion in a safe zone. Check with admin.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

For the people of Israel to have come through so many trying to kill them off is testament to God looking after them as a people. God put their purpose on hold till the Body of Christ is complete.

Nonsense. God's purpose for them and for all people is to save them through the blood sacrifice of His Son and to have them serve Him as His people for eternity. Their purpose was definitely not put on hold.

Yes, Paul does show that and then further on `And so all Israel will be saved,...` (Rom. 11: 26)

You have the wrong Israel there. He is talking about the Israel of which not all of the nation of Israel are part, as Paul explained in Romans 9:6-8. That is commonly referred to as Spiritual Israel or The Israel of God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In Isaac shall thy seed be called. The children of the promise. God does not go back on His promises.

You apparently don't understand what that means. Have you never read this...

Galatians 4:22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are [a]the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written: “Rejoice, O barren, You who do not bear! Break forth and shout, You who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband.” 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.

According to Paul, all Christians, Jew and Gentile, are called in Isaac and are the children of the promise. You need to ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7) and start reading the New Testament. All of it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The 144000 are future Jewish messianic, Jews out of the 12 tribes. As the Bible clearly states

If that was the case then why does the list of 12 tribes in Revelation not match the list of the 12 tribes of Israel given in the Old Testament? The fact that they don't match should give you a clue that it's not meant to be interpreted literally the way you do.

The tribe of Dan is not included in the list of 12 tribes in Revelation and is replaced by Manasseh. Also, Revelation includes Joseph, who is not included in the OT tribes, and it does not include Ephraim like he is in the OT tribes. Also, the tribes are listed in a different order in Revelation 7, with Judah being listed first instead of Reuben. So, all these things are indications that the list of tribes in Revelation is intended to be symbolic rather than literal. The 144,000 symbolize all believers who are part of Spiritual Israel and not just Jews.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The only `good news` that Israel knew was that their Messiah would come and set up His rule through them. Jesus had not died, risen or ascended or been made Head of the Body by the Father. That revelation was not given till later to the Apostle Paul.

Our good news is more than what Israel knew. And that is what is written to the Body of Christ.

Perhaps you didn't read what I said carefully. This is horrible false teaching. You are terribly deceived. There is and only ever has been one gospel. It was even preached to Abraham (Galatians 3:8).

Those who had discernment understood what the one true gospel is all about. You are talking about people like the Pharisees who did not understand what the Messiah was supposed to come and accomplish. They believed in a false gospel. You should know better. Simeon understood what the Messiah was supposed to come and accomplish.

Luke 2:25 And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the Consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. 27 So he came by the Spirit into the temple. And when the parents brought in the Child Jesus, to do for Him according to the custom of the law, 28 he took Him up in his arms and blessed God and said:
29 “Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace,
According to Your word;
30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation
31 Which You have prepared before the face of all peoples,
32 A light to bring revelation to the Gentiles,
And the glory of Your people Israel.”

Do you see any mention here by Simeon of the Messiah coming to set up His rule through Israel? No, you don't, because Simeon understood what the Messiah came to do, unlike people like the Pharisees.

 

[Earburner]

Disagree with the 144k being a chosen from the past. Revelation was written about 95AD. Israel was already scattered.
The 144k are male virgins. That is not symbolic, that is literal and physical.
"These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God."
Rev. 14:4-5
This is future.
John MacArthur says they are ewly chosen Messianic Jewish evangelists who preach the gospel during the Great Tribulation period, especially to the Jews. I side with that interpretation.

But still, you (and the many who are of "the clergy") have no convincing argument of how and who they were, that rose from their graves, after Jesus resurrection!!
KJV Mat. 27:52-54

They were, and still are of the symbolic 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel, who were asleep under the altar of the OC, whose names were being held in "Remembrance" by God. KJV Malachi 3:16.

Here are a few Believers in the Promise that was to come, who were under the OC. just BEFORE the death and resurrection of Christ:
1. Simeon is a prime example of being one of the 144,000. KJV Luke 2
[25] And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was UPON him [but not yet permanently within him].
[26] And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
[27] And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
[28] Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
[29] Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
[30] For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
[31] Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
[32] A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

2. So also was the repentant "thief on the cross", who requested that Jesus would "Remember" him, when Jesus came into His kingdom. And of course, He did!!
And if you recall, Jesus mortally died BEFORE the thief.

3. And let's not forget Nathaniel, of whom Jesus said: "Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! See also KJV Rev. 14:5.

So then, because of the shed blood of Christ, those who were of faith, who had lived, and the some who remained to be alive under the OC, they were in faith believing of the Promise to come, who was Jesus.
All of such did receive their White Robes, "the Promise" of the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit, of whom is the very vehicle of Eternal Life. Rev. 6:9-11

 

[Marilyn C]

Yes, "all Israel" as defined and described by Paul.

Also defined and described by Paul here:

Galatians 4
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Jew and Gentile believers in Christ in Galatia, and everywhere they were and are found.

AKA His Church.

Yes, now Jew and Gentile in the Body of Christ, however, God will still turn the nation of Israel to Himself and fulfill His promised purpose for them - to rule over the nations.

 

[Marilyn C]

Perhaps you didn't read what I said carefully. This is horrible false teaching. You are terribly deceived. There is and only ever has been one gospel. It was even preached to Abraham (Galatians 3:8).

Those who had discernment understood what the one true gospel is all about. You are talking about people like the Pharisees who did not understand what the Messiah was supposed to come and accomplish. They believed in a false gospel. You should know better. Simeon understood what the Messiah was supposed to come and accomplish.

Luke 2:25 And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the Consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. 27 So he came by the Spirit into the temple. And when the parents brought in the Child Jesus, to do for Him according to the custom of the law, 28 he took Him up in his arms and blessed God and said:
29 “Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace,
According to Your word;
30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation
31 Which You have prepared before the face of all peoples,
32 A light to bring revelation to the Gentiles,
And the glory of Your people Israel.”

Do you see any mention here by Simeon of the Messiah coming to set up His rule through Israel? No, you don't, because Simeon understood what the Messiah came to do, unlike people like the Pharisees.

No need to get nasty and accusing. We are here to discuss and hear what the Head of the Body by His Holy Spirit brings to our attention. And He certainly does NOT go around accusing the brethren. We actually know who does that! And we don`t want to be doing his work, do we?

Yes, Simeon knew that God would bring `light` to the Gentiles. That is written in the Old Testament. However, that does not explain why the 11 disciples were asking the Lord ``Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?` (Acts 1: 6)

The revelation of the Body of Christ was not revealed till the Lord went to the Father as was made Head of the Body. Then the Lord revealed to the Apostle Paul about the Body of Christ. (Eph. 3: 1 - 7)

Thus we read of FURTHER revelation revealed by the Lord.

 

[David in NJ]

You come across as if you believe that God did not cast away the people of Israel away permanently, but only temporarily. Is that what you're intending to say? If so, that is not AT ALL what Paul was saying in Romans 11:1. He was saying that God did not cast away His people that He foreknew at all (not even temporarily) and the evidence Paul gave for that was himself and the rest of the elect remnant of believers of his day.

TRUE in part

TRUTH = as you correctly stated: "Paul/Jew gave for that was himself and the rest of the elect remnant of believers of his day"

Remnant vs Nation

God has ALWAYS kept a remnant of Jews unto Salvation - but the nation of Israel of the flesh was cast out......UNTIL the 2nd Coming

 

[David in NJ]

No need to get nasty and accusing. We are here to discuss and hear what the Head of the Body by His Holy Spirit brings to our attention. And He certainly does NOT go around accusing the brethren. We actually know who does that! And we don`t want to be doing his work, do we?

AGREE

Yes, Simeon knew that God would bring `light` to the Gentiles. That is written in the Old Testament. However, that does not explain why the 11 disciples were asking the Lord ``Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?` (Acts 1: 6)
The revelation of the Body of Christ was not revealed till the Lord went to the Father as was made Head of the Body. Then the Lord revealed to the Apostle Paul about the Body of Christ. (Eph. 3: 1 - 7)

You contradicted yourself = which is evident in the scriptures you posted

What was not revealed was = WHEN and HOW

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you,
searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.

 

[Marilyn C]

AGREE


You contradicted yourself = which is evident in the scriptures you posted

What was not revealed was = WHEN and HOW

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you,
searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.

Not sure how I contradicted myself there. I quoted -

`Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?` (Acts 1: 6)

The disciples only knew of Israel`s restoration as written in the OT. Thus they were asking the `When` question.

 

[David in NJ]

Not sure how I contradicted myself there. I quoted -

`Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?` (Acts 1: 6)

The disciples only knew of Israel`s restoration as written in the OT. Thus they were asking the `When` question.

Their question was GOOD and, as you correctly stated: "written in the OT"

What was JESUS response to them

 

[covenantee]

Yes, now Jew and Gentile in the Body of Christ, however, God will still turn the nation of Israel to Himself and fulfill His promised purpose for them - to rule over the nations.

According to Jesus, the opposite would occur:

Matthew 21
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

The nation "nation bringing forth the fruits thereof":

1 Peter 2
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

AKA The Church.

 

[David in NJ]

According to Jesus, the opposite would occur:

Matthew 21
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

The nation "nation bringing forth the fruits thereof":

1 Peter 2
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

AKA The Church.

Make a small but necessary correction and you have the WHOLE TRUTH

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

33Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34“For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?”
35“Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”
36For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

 

[David in NJ]

@covenantee - thank you for your post 1,556

 

[covenantee]

@covenantee - thank you for your post 1,556

@David in NJ And you for your 1553 et al.

 

[Marilyn C]

Their question was GOOD and, as you correctly stated: "written in the OT"

What was JESUS response to them

Good follow up.

Jesus said - `It is not for you to know the times and seasons which the Father has put in His won authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to me in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the end of the earth.` (Acts 1: 7 & 8)

The times and seasons they did not know however Paul taught the Thessalonians that the Day of the LORD, (period of time) starts the `sudden destruction,` and that they are NOT in that time. That is new revelation from the head of the Body.

`But concerning the times and seasons you have no need that I should write to you for you yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the LORD so comes as a thief in the night.....But you, brethren are not in darkness that this Day should overtake you as a thief...` (1Thess. 5: 1, 2 & 4))

As to the 11 (& later 12) disciples they witnessed of Christ`s life, death and ascension. (Acts 1: 22) They witnessed to the people of Israel of Christ being Lord and Messiah. (Acts 2: 36)

And did you want to make a point?