Rapture Thoughts of Some Early Church Leaders

[WPM]

David in N.J. noted:
<The two witnesses die>

IMO:
The two witnesses (perhaps Enoch and Elijah) die, and after 3 days they stand up and rise up into heaven. This is at the midpoint of the 70th seven (Daniel 9:24-26), before the "great tribulation" begins (Matthew 24:21).

<I will not leave you desolate, I WILL COME TO YOU" (John 14:18)
sounds like the second coming.>

Indeed (Revelation 19:11-21).

Where is the "Church" mentioned in Revelation 11:3? You seem to make it up as you go.

Where in Daniel 9 does it mention the Church? Where does it mentioned a rapture? Where does it mention a tribulation period, and where does it mention a 3rd coming? It is simply not there! It has to be forced into the sacred text!

 

[William Barton]

Where is the "Church" mentioned in Revelation 11:3? You seem to make it up as you go.

Where in Daniel 9 does it mention the Church? Where does it mentioned a rapture? Where does it mention a tribulation period, and where does it mention a 3rd coming? It is simply not there! It has to be forced into the sacred text!

"Church" is Greek εκκλησια (ecclesia). We get the word "ecclestiastical" from it. The etymology is:

εκ = from
καλεω = call

This reflects John 6:44:
"No man comes to me unless the Father calls him."

The church is the body of believers. Daniel is a believer who was "called."
Jesus said, "...on this rock (of belief) I will build my church." (Matthew 16:18).

"Second coming" is indicated in Revelation 19:11-22.

Rapture is noted in 1Thessalonisns 4:17.

Where is the "Church" mentioned in Revelation 11:3? You seem to make it up as you go.

Where in Daniel 9 does it mention the Church? Where does it mentioned a rapture? Where does it mention a tribulation period, and where does it mention a 3rd coming? It is simply not there! It has to be forced into the sacred text!

 

[WPM]

"Church" is Greek εκκλησια (ecclesia). We get the word "ecclestiastical" from it. The etymology is:

εκ = from
καλεω = call

This reflects John 6:44:
"No man comes to me unless the Father calls him."

The church is the body of believers. Daniel is a believer who was "called."
Jesus said, "...on this rock (of belief) I will build my church." (Matthew 16:18).

"Second coming" is indicated in Revelation 19:11-22.

Rapture is noted in 1Thessalonisns 4:17.

LOL. You just totally avoided my queries and went on a rabbit trail. This is classic Pretrib. Pretribbers cannot seem to address the issues. They cannot biblically prove their claims. That is because they have no clear proof-texts.

Where is the "Church" mentioned in Revelation 11:3? You seem to make it up as you go.

Where in Daniel 9 does it mention the Church? Where does it mentioned a rapture? Where does it mention a tribulation period, and where does it mention a 3rd coming? It is simply not there! It has to be forced into the sacred text!

 

[quietthinker]

David in N.J. noted:
<The two witnesses die>

IMO:
The two witnesses (perhaps Enoch and Elijah) die, and after 3 days they stand up and rise up into heaven. This is at the midpoint of the 70th seven (Daniel 9:24-26), before the "great tribulation" begins (Matthew 24:21).

<I will not leave you desolate, I WILL COME TO YOU" (John 14:18)
sounds like the second coming.>

Indeed (Revelation 19:11-21).

Cobbling texts that suit ones theology is a flawed practice. If it doesn't take you to discouragement it will to self righteousness.

 

[William Barton]

WPM asked:
<Where is the "Church" mentioned in Revelation 11:3?">
The two witnesses are God's witnesses, hence part of God's church.

"Church" is an English rendering of Greek εκκλησια = "assembly duly summoned." We do not come to God, rather God summons us (John 6:44).

<Where does it mention a rapture?>
"went up" (Revelation 11:3) = rapture.

<where does it mention a tribulation period?>
"Earthquake" (Revelation11:13) expresses the anger of of God, initiating the tribulation.

<were does it mention a third coming>
Revelation 19:11-21.
Crunch time, patience of God is at an end.

 

[WPM]

WPM asked:
<Where is the "Church" mentioned in Revelation 11:3?">
The two witnesses are God's witnesses, hence part of God's church.

"Church" is an English rendering of Greek εκκλησια = "assembly duly summoned." We do not come to God, rather God summons us (John 6:44).

<Where does it mention a rapture?>
"went up" (Revelation 11:3) = rapture.

<where does it mention a tribulation period?>
"Earthquake" (Revelation11:13) expresses the anger of of God, initiating the tribulation.

<were does it mention a third coming>
Revelation 19:11-21.
Crunch time, patience of God is at an end.

Are there not more than 2 witnesses in the Church? Is the whole Church killed before they go up to heaven? Are there no 'alive in Christ' caught up?

 

[WPM]

Cobbling texts that suit ones theology is a flawed practice. If it doesn't take you to discouragement it will to self righteousness.

You are describing Pretrib. Can you show us any Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by seven year tribulation, followed by a third coming?

 

[rebuilder 454]

"Church" is Greek εκκλησια (ecclesia). We get the word "ecclestiastical" from it. The etymology is:

εκ = from
καλεω = call

This reflects John 6:44:
"No man comes to me unless the Father calls him."

The church is the body of believers. Daniel is a believer who was "called."
Jesus said, "...on this rock (of belief) I will build my church." (Matthew 16:18).

"Second coming" is indicated in Revelation 19:11-22.

Rapture is noted in 1Thessalonisns 4:17.

Yes 2 separate events years apart

 

[Randy Kluth]

LOL. You just totally avoided my queries and went on a rabbit trail. This is classic Pretrib. Pretribbers cannot seem to address the issues. They cannot biblically prove their claims. That is because they have no clear proof-texts.

Where is the "Church" mentioned in Revelation 11:3? You seem to make it up as you go.

Where in Daniel 9 does it mention the Church? Where does it mentioned a rapture? Where does it mention a tribulation period, and where does it mention a 3rd coming? It is simply not there! It has to be forced into the sacred text!

There are at least 2 basic issues that cause Pretrib error.
1) It is thought that we are to expect Christ "at any time."
2) It is thought that we are to escape God's Wrath in the endtimes.

We are always to be ready in the sense we are always to walk in the Spirit. This is our constant readiness for God's Kingdom. Readiness does not consist in constant mental expectation that Christ could come at any minute. Preparation is not strictly mental, but rather, behavioral. We live for the Kingdom, and so are always ready for the Kingdom, being in a state of obedience. The idea of being prepared for Christ's Coming "at any minute" is absurd--how can one be expecting Christ at any minute at night when one is asleep? It is the belief that Christ is coming soon that causes us to behave properly in view of the coming Kingdom and so keep ourselves always ready, whether we live or die.

We are given to escape various punishments designed only for sinners when we are walking in the Spirit. When we are obedient we are not punished for living in sin, as so many sinners are punished now and also in the future. In the future we are not promised escape from the Antichrist, nor have Christians been given to escape the many antichrists in history, whether Communism, Islam, or any oppressive pagan or religious government.

What we are given to escape from are conflicts that God gives the saints to avoid at various times in history, such as in 70 AD when Christians were warned by Jesus to escape to the nearby hills. And we are given to escape the eternal Wrath of God in the final judgment. None of this has a thing to do with escaping the time of Antichrist's Reign at the end of the age.

 

[WPM]

Yes 2 separate events years apart

More private opinions. Zero Scripture once again. Does this not get old after a while?

 

[William Barton]

100% CORRECT

The false doctrine of pre-trib one of the easiest to discover from Scripture that it is a blatant lie.

David in NJ noted:
<false doctrine>

Suggestion:
"Gather His elect" (Matthew 24:31) is not the rapture, rather it is the return of Jesus to earth with his mighty angels.

His elect (Christian Jews) that are yet scattered are then invited back to their rightful homeland, to join Jews already there

The Jews (descendants of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob) are God's chosen people. However, I as a gentile am allowed to be a fellow heir (Ephesians 3:6).

The rapture is noted in Revelation 14:14-16, reflecting 1Thessalonians 4:15-17.

 

[William Barton]

Brother William,

The Two Witnesses DIE in/during the GREAT Tribulation = by the Antichrist/BEAST

IMO:
The two witnesses are Enoch and Elijah, who were taken up to heaven many years ago, knowing that they are to return and become martyrs (as was Jesus).

 

[WPM]

IMO:
The two witnesses are Enoch and Elijah, who were taken up to heaven many years ago, knowing that they are to return and become martyrs (as was Jesus).

So they are Christians? They are the Church?

 

[covenantee]

The Jews (descendants of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob) are God's chosen people.

They certainly are.

Matthew 23
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

John 8
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

 

[Behold]

A piece of Advice.

If you are ever on a Forum, or reading a commentary, or watching something on TV, and you are told......."Lets see what the Early Church Father's want us to know, and believe".

See that phrase.....>"Early Church Fathers"?

That is DEMONIC CODE for "THE MARY CULT"......as only the MARY CULT has "early Church Fathers".

What to do?

GET AWAY FROM IT AND STAY AWAY FROM IT.

Turn it off or throw it away and always avoid "early church Fathers'.
-

 

[covenantee]

A piece of Advice.

If you are ever on a Forum, or reading a commentary, or watching something on TV, and you are told......."Lets see what the Early Church Father's want us to know, and believe".

See that phrase.....>"Early Church Fathers"?

That is DEMONIC CODE for "THE MARY CULT"......as only the MARY CULT has "early Church Fathers".

What to do?

GET AWAY FROM IT AND STAY AWAY FROM IT.

Turn it off or throw it away and always avoid "early church Fathers'.
-
View attachment 88860

What are some examples of leaders in the post-apostolic Christian Church?

 

[WPM]

A piece of Advice.

If you are ever on a Forum, or reading a commentary, or watching something on TV, and you are told......."Lets see what the Early Church Father's want us to know, and believe".

See that phrase.....>"Early Church Fathers"?

That is DEMONIC CODE for "THE MARY CULT"......as only the MARY CULT has "early Church Fathers".

What to do?

GET AWAY FROM IT AND STAY AWAY FROM IT.

Turn it off or throw it away and always avoid "early church Fathers'.
-
View attachment 88860

It seems like you are incapable of addressing the truth apart from with pettiness.

 

[JimKnox]

Funny thing about most pretrib folks. They can't defend their eschatology without taking a pen knife to Scripture. Every time a verse is produced that refutes pretrib they have their get-out-of-jail-card (Israel, Gentiles, Church).
You show them posttrib and they say JEWS!!! Show them Millenial Exclusion and they say GENTILES!!!
It is fail safe but dishonest, IMO.

 

[WPM]

Funny thing about most pretrib folks. They can't defend their eschatology without taking a pen knife to Scripture. Every time a verse is produced that refutes pretrib they have their get-out-of-jail-card (Israel, Gentiles, Church).
You show them posttrib and they say JEWS!!! Show them Millenial Exclusion and they say GENTILES!!!
It is fail safe but dishonest, IMO.

Apart from butchering the book of Revelation, where is your corroboration elsewhere in the New Testament?

 

[JimKnox]

Whazzamatta U?
Is all eschatology to be limited to the New Testament now?

Apart from butchering the book of Revelation, where is your corroboration elsewhere in the New Testament?