Rapture Thoughts of Some Early Church Leaders

[WPM]

Then I invite you to demonstrate that from the Bible.

Are there only two human witnesses in the Church that are raptured? How many people do you think are making the rapture? Also. the rapture in Scripture comes after the sound of the trumpet, not before. Your theology is all back to front and convoluted.

 

[WPM]

This is not correct. The rapture of the Church will happen before the great tribulation. Rev 14 is after the great tribulation.

What you are seeing in Rev 14 is the second harvest which occurs at the 6th seal. It is the 12 tribes across the earth that are raptured immediately after the tribulation. Then the seventh seal is opened, and the wrath of God begins.

LOL. You Pretribbers are taking each other out of the game with your error. You guys are all over the place. This is false teaching you are promoting.

 

[WPM]

"Church" is an English rendering of Greek εκκλασια (ekklasia) where:
εκ= from, out
κλασια = a group

I.e. those chosen from a group.

The Hebrew words that are used in the Old Testament to describe the overall company of the children of Israel are qâhâl and ‛êdâh. These words are usually translated, and mean, “congregation” or “assembly.” But, the Old Testament was not just written in Hebrew; it was also written in Greek. Interestingly, the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint or LXX) normally uses the word ekklesia (from ek- + kaleo, meaning “to call”) in place of these two Hebrew words to describe the gathering of the congregation of old covenant Israel. The word ekklesia literally means ‘the called-out assembly’. Notwithstanding: there are some instances where the Greek Old Testament translators use the word sunagoge to represent the same Hebrew words.

When you examine the usage of qâhâl and ‛êdâh in the Old Testament, you discover that they are interchangeably used throughout the ancient text and are considered by most Hebrew scholars to be synonymous, even though they are different Hebrew words. There are even times when these same or similar Hebrew words are linked together in the same text in order to describe ‘the congregating [verb] of the congregation [noun]’ or ‘the assembling [verb] of the assembly [noun]’. Number 20:1-13 is a case-in-point.

This should help us understand the true meaning and origin of the Greek word ekklesia. When used in a religious sense, we are basically looking at the congregation or assembly of God’s people. The word ekklesia can apply to a secular gathering, so the translator’s insistence upon the word “Church” is misplaced and not an appropriate rendering of the word.

 

[ewq1938]

This is not correct. The rapture of the Church will happen before the great tribulation.

No, the rapture is after the trib is over. The survivors will be raptured.

Rev 14 is after the great tribulation.

What you are seeing in Rev 14 is the second harvest which occurs at the 6th seal.
It is the 12 tribes across the earth that are raptured immediately after the tribulation. Then the seventh seal is opened, and the wrath of God begins.

Yet the 6th seal mentions the wrath of God, so how can that be if the start of the wrath is the seal afterwards?

What does the wrath of God have to do with 30 min of silence?

Why also does Rev 11 say the wrath of God starts at the 7th trump?

Why does the 7th seal say nothing about the wrath starting?

 

[The Light]

No, the rapture is after the trib is over. The survivors will be raptured.

There is a rapture after the great tribulation is over. It is the second rapture as the fig tree has two harvests.

Yet the 6th seal mentions the wrath of God, so how can that be if the start of the wrath is the seal afterwards?

Jesus comes for a harvest at the 6th seal as believers are not appointed to wrath. Then the 7th seal which contains the 7 trumpets and 7 vials is opened.

What does the wrath of God have to do with 30 min of silence?

Thirty minutes of silence occurs BEFORE the first trumpet of wrath occurs.

Why also does Rev 11 say the wrath of God starts at the 7th trump?

The wrath of God is OVER at the 7th trumpet.

Revelation 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. Armageddon is OVER. The wrath of God is over.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

After the wrath of God is over, it is the time of judgement.

Revelation 11
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Why does the 7th seal say nothing about the wrath starting?

Revelation 6 says the time of wrath is come. Those 7 trumpets and 7 vials are the wrath of God.

Revelation 6
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Here is another view.
Jesus comes in Revelation 14. It is a harvest. Believers are raptured from the earth. Unbelievers are cast into the wrath of God which is 7 trumpets and 7 vials.

Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

 

[ewq1938]

There is a rapture after the great tribulation is over. It is the second rapture as the fig tree has two harvests.

That isn't evidence. Most fig trees have one crop harvest anyways.

Jesus comes for a harvest at the 6th seal as believers are not appointed to wrath.

It happens at the 7th trump, not when the 6th seal is opened. The seal doesn't mention a harvest BTW.

Then the 7th seal which contains the 7 trumpets and 7 vials is opened.

It does not contain any of them.

Thirty minutes of silence occurs BEFORE the first trumpet of wrath occurs.

The wrath of God is OVER at the 7th trumpet.

Rev 11 says the wrath begins at the 7th trump, not ends.

Revelation 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. Armageddon is OVER. The wrath of God is over.

The mystery is over, not the wrath.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


That's when the wrath starts.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

After the wrath of God is over, it is the time of judgement.

Revelation 11
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Revelation 6 says the time of wrath is come. Those 7 trumpets and 7 vials are the wrath of God.

The events of the OD and the 6th seal happen at the 7th trump.

Revelation 6
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Here is another view.
Jesus comes in Revelation 14. It is a harvest. Believers are raptured from the earth. Unbelievers are cast into the wrath of God which is 7 trumpets and 7 vials.

Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Also 7th trump timeframe.

 

[The Light]

That isn't evidence. Most fig trees have one crop harvest anyways.

The evidence is the Word of God..............that and the FACT that the fig tree has two harvests.

The fathers of Israel were seen by God as the first fruits of the first harvest. But Israel went to Baalpeor. The Gentiles become the first harvest and the Jews become the second harvest.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

The fig tree has two harvests.
Jacob had two brides.
One coming at the trump of God or voice of God and one coming at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets.
One coming, the Lord Himself comes and one coming He sends His angels to gather the elect.
One coming when it's like the days of Noah, and one coming when it's like the days of Lot.
One coming before the great tribulation and one coming before the wrath of God.

 

[ewq1938]

The evidence is the Word of God..............that and the FACT that the fig tree has two harvests.

There is no link between two harvests or two raptures. There is one rapture of the saints, it is post trib.

The fathers of Israel were seen by God as the first fruits of the first harvest. But Israel went to Baalpeor. The Gentiles become the first harvest and the Jews become the second harvest.

That isn't in the bible though. All that are alive and remain will be raptured. No one is forgotten or raptured later. The raptured will be of all nations not one rapture of Jews and one of Gentiles.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Doen't support what you are claiming.

The fig tree has two harvests.

Some do, some only 1 and some can have 3, plus the crop produced can be harvested slowly in multiple harvests so 7-20 harvests in one crop is easily possible. None of this has anything to do with the one rapture of those alive and remaining.

Jacob had two brides.

So?

Abraham had 3 wives. Will there be 3 harvests also?

One coming at the trump of God or voice of God and one coming at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets.
One coming, the Lord Himself comes and one coming He sends His angels to gather the elect.
One coming when it's like the days of Noah, and one coming when it's like the days of Lot.
One coming before the great tribulation and one coming before the wrath of God.

All wrong. There is one Coming, and that is when the saints are raptured. No other raptures happen because no one is left to rapture.

 

[WPM]

The evidence is the Word of God..............that and the FACT that the fig tree has two harvests.

The fathers of Israel were seen by God as the first fruits of the first harvest. But Israel went to Baalpeor. The Gentiles become the first harvest and the Jews become the second harvest.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

The fig tree has two harvests.
Jacob had two brides.
One coming at the trump of God or voice of God and one coming at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets.
One coming, the Lord Himself comes and one coming He sends His angels to gather the elect.
One coming when it's like the days of Noah, and one coming when it's like the days of Lot.
One coming before the great tribulation and one coming before the wrath of God.

You make it up as you go. That is why you cannot support your invented claims with the sacred text. That is why you avoid these questions about what you have erroneously claimed. Meanwhile the unanswered questions add up.

1. Where is your Pretrib rapture in Revelation?
2. Is Revelation 19 your 3rd rapture?
3. Where is your tribulation period following Matthew 24:44 (or any other rapture passage)?
4. Show us one Scripture that teaches that "the feasts of God are a picture of the end times"?
5. Show me New Testament Scripture that teaches that “there are two harvests? The grain harvest and the fruit harvest”?
6. Where is "the grain harvest" mentioned in the New Testament?
7. Where is "the fruit harvest " mentioned in the New Testament?
8. Where is "the barley harvest" that you have previously invented and foisted on Scripture mentioned in the New Testament?
9. Where is "the wheat harvest" that you have previously invented and foisted on Scripture mentioned in the New Testament?
10. Where is all this jargon about "on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall harvest feast" in the New Testament text or in any rapture passage?
11. Where in the New Testament does it say “there are two raptures – grain and fruit”?
12. Show us any Scripture that teaches there are "two" future "raptures"?
13. Where in the Bible does it teach that "the fig tree having two harvests are referring to two raptures”?
14. Where in the Scriptures does it teach that “the two folds of sheep are referring to two raptures”?
15. Where does it say anywhere in Scripture that “Noah is a picture of the Pretrib rapture” and “Lot is a picture of the Jewish harvest”?
16. Show us any Scripture that teaches "the Church is removed before the great tribulation, which is the time of testing"?
17. Show us any Scripture that teaches there is a "one-year wrath of God"?
18. Can you show us anywhere in God’s holy Word that describes God having “two brides in heaven during Gods wrath”?
19. Can you show us anywhere in God’s holy Word where there are 2 future comings of Christ - "One coming at the trump of God or voice of God and one coming at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets"?
20. Can you show us anywhere in God’s holy Word where there are 2 future comings of Christ - "One coming, the Lord Himself comes and one coming He sends His angels to gather the elect"?
21. Can you show us anywhere in God’s holy Word where there are 2 future comings of Christ - "One coming when it's like the days of Noah, and one coming when it's like the days of Lot"?
22. Can you show us anywhere in God’s holy Word where there are 2 future comings of Christ - "One coming before the great tribulation and one coming before the wrath of God"?

 

[William Barton]

This is not correct. The rapture of the Church will happen before the great tribulation. Rev 14 is after the great tribulation.

What you are seeing in Rev 14 is the second harvest which occurs at the 6th seal. It is the 12 tribes across the earth that are raptured immediately after the tribulation. Then the seventh seal is opened, and the wrath of God begins.

IMO:
o. Seventh trumpet is the *last* of the seven trumpets to sound.
o. Jesus reaps at the *last* trumpet (1Corinthians 25:51-52).
o. Great tribulation (bowl judgments) occur *after* the trumpet judgments.
o. Revelation 14:17-20 is the call for the great tribulation to begin.

This sequence is poetically indicated as follows:
o. Trumpets: indicating an announcement
o. Scrolls: written accusation against evildoers is recited
o. Bowls: retribution, poetically indicated as hot-oil torture

 

[PeterAndroz]

IMO:
o. Seventh trumpet is the *last* of the seven trumpets to sound.
o. Jesus reaps at the *last* trumpet (1Corinthians 25:51-52).
o. Great tribulation (bowl judgments) occur *after* the trumpet judgments.
o. Revelation 14:17-20 is the call for the great tribulation to begin.

.
o. Seventh trumpet is the *last* of the seven trumpets to sound.
o. Jesus reaps at the *last* trumpet (1Corinthians 25:51-52).
.

Does 'the last trump' relate to the 7th trumpet in the book of Revelation?

jesusplusnothing.com

Post-tribers do try to link the 'last trump' of 1 Cor 15 with the 7th trumpet of Revelation as you mentioned but this is a stretch. The fact is that Paul was writing to the Corinthians and he was talking to them about something that they were familiar with, not something that wasn't even revealed yet! 1 Corinthians was written approx. 55 AD and Revelation not until approx. 96 AD so Paul wouldn't have been making a reference to something they, and probably he, knew nothing about!

 

[ewq1938]

.
o. Seventh trumpet is the *last* of the seven trumpets to sound.
o. Jesus reaps at the *last* trumpet (1Corinthians 25:51-52).
.

Does 'the last trump' relate to the 7th trumpet in the book of Revelation?

jesusplusnothing.com

Post-tribers do try to link the 'last trump' of 1 Cor 15 with the 7th trumpet of Revelation as you mentioned but this is a stretch. The fact is that Paul was writing to the Corinthians and he was talking to them about something that they were familiar with, not something that wasn't even revealed yet! 1 Corinthians was written approx. 55 AD and Revelation not until approx. 96 AD so Paul wouldn't have been making a reference to something they, and probably he, knew nothing about!

Or he did know about the 7 last trumps because God told him, and John simply was not the first to know of them. There are 7 end times trumps and the last one is spoken about by Paul and John and both are about Christ returning.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Or he did know about the 7 last trumps because God told him, and John simply was not the first to know of them. There are 7 end times trumps and the last one is spoken about by Paul and John and both are about Christ returning.

Going to reword my prev response

 

[The Light]

IMO:
o. Seventh trumpet is the *last* of the seven trumpets to sound.

The 7th trumpet has nothing to do with the last trump. The Last Trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets which is why Paul did not have to explain it. The Feast of Trumpets is a harvest feast.

o. Jesus reaps at the *last* trumpet (1Corinthians 25:51-52).

He does. But this reaping will happen at the 6th seal, immediately after the great tribulation and has nothing whatsoever to do with the 7th trumpet blown by an angel.

o. Great tribulation (bowl judgments) occur *after* the trumpet judgments.

The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. It is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. Understanding that the great tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal is the beginning of understanding Revelation.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

o. Revelation 14:17-20 is the call for the great tribulation to begin.

No sir. Revelation 14:17-19 is the call for the wrath of God to begin. This is the same thing you see at the end of Revelation 6. Tribulation over and wrath beginning.

Look at Revelation 14

Here is the great tribulation.
Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Then we have the harvest of the righteous. This is the same harvest that we see in the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 which occurs at the 6th seal.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Then we have the unrighteous being cast into the wrath of God.

Revelation 14
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The great tribulation and the wrath of God are not the same thing. The great tribulation is when the dragon is killing believers who will be mostly Jews at the time of the great tribulation. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal.

The wrath of God is the 7th seal. It contains the trumpets and vials of wrath which happen in the same timeframe. In other words, the vials do not follow the trumpets. The wrath of God is when God punishes an unbelieving world.

 

[William Barton]

1. Can you show us anywhere in God’s holy Word where there are 2 future comings of Christ - "One coming before the great tribulation and one coming before the wrath of God"?

I can show you three comings of Christ, two future:
1. Matthew 1:20 the child
2. Revelation 14:16. the reaper
3. Revelation 19:11 the lion of Judah

"Jesus" is a Latin/English rendering of Hebrew ישוע (Yeshuya) = "savior."

Pre-great-tribulation rapture is Jesus descended to a cloud to take up believers (Revelation 14:14-16) before the great tribulation.

 

[WPM]

I can show you two comings of Christ.
1. Matthew 1:20 the child
2. Revelation 19:11 the Word of God

"Jesus" is a Latin/English rendering of Hebrew ישוע (Yeshuya) = "savior."

We all believe in these 2 coming (1 past and the other future). Where is there taught a 3rd coming in Scripture?

 

[The Light]

There is no link between two harvests or two raptures.

You would probably need to understand what first fruits are to understand this.

There is one rapture of the saints, it is post trib.

Why is Jesus coming IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULAITON sending His angels to gather the elect. Wouldn't Jesus need to come before the tribulation is over and gather the elect in your view of endtimes.

Your view also has the Church on the earth during the wrath of God. This does not agree with scripture.

1 Thes 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

That isn't in the bible though. All that are alive and remain will be raptured. No one is forgotten or raptured later. The raptured will be of all nations not one rapture of Jews and one of Gentiles.

There are two raptures. One for the Gentiles and one for the 12 tribes across the earth. The proof of a second harvest is the 144,000 first fruits of the 12 tribes. There are two folds that become one fold, the great multitude.

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Doen't support what you are claiming.

Oh it does. You just don't understand it.

Abraham had 3 wives. Will there be 3 harvests also?

Abraham is not Israel. Jacob is.

All wrong. There is one Coming, and that is when the saints are raptured. No other raptures happen because no one is left to rapture.

Why is Jesus coming AFTER the tribulation to gather the elect. Shouldn't Jesus come before the tribulation is over and gather the saints. You have Jesus coming for the saints after Armageddon.

You have the Church on the earth during the wrath of God. There are countless reasons why your view does not agree with scripture but you just deny what the scripture says and follow what you want to believe.

 

[The Light]

Pre-great-tribulation rapture is Jesus descended to a cloud to take up believers (Revelation 14:14-16).

Rev 14 is not the rapture of the Church.

Here is the great tribulation............and yet the harvest has not occurred.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

The harvest of Revelation 14 is of the 12 tribes. The Church is in heaven before the great tribulation. It is the Jews around the earth that are raptured in Revelation 14 as the Jews go through the great tribulation.

Those that get victory over the beast are singing the song of Moses. They are Jews.

Revelation 14
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

 

[The Light]

This sequence is poetically indicated as follows:
o. Trumpets: indicating an announcement
o. Scrolls: written accusation against evildoers is recited
o. Bowls: retribution, poetically indicated as hot-oil torture

The seven seals are opened in order.

The great tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal.

The 7th seal is the ONE YEAR wrath of God.

The trumpets and vials are different views of the same time frame with different events. It's like two people watching the same football game. One sees a touchdown and get up to grab some snacks. Another guy walks in and starts watching. Someone calls and says whats happening in the game. The first guy tells what he saw and then the second guy tells what he saw. They saw different events of the same game. John gets two separate visions of the same event......Gods wrath. The vials DO NOT follow the trumpets. It's more like trumpet one then vial one etc. etc.

 

[William Barton]

WPM asked
<two human witnesses>

IMO:
1. The two witnesses (Revelation 11:1-14) will be raptured along with all other believers, to avoid the bowl judgments.

2. They are Enoch and Elijah.