Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

[Davy]

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:23–26


I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.” -1 Corinthians 15:50–54


I didn't post the chunk of verses inbetween the two to save space, but they are speaking of the resurrection, so Paul is still, clearly, speaking of the SAME thing and the SAME event.

You're reading the "Then comes the end" incorrectly.

1 Cor 15:24-26
24 Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father;
when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
KJV


The "end" happening is dependent upon a condition given there, i.e., the "when" of those two phrases in red. The 26th verse is a condition linked to verse 25.

1. "...when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father" - of course it's all over when Jesus does this, so this definitely signals the "end", but still doesn't reveal the "when".

2. "...when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power" - this "when" condition is more specific, and requires that Jesus reigns over all nations with His elect with "a rod of iron" as per Bible prophecy (Ps.2; Rev.2:27; Rev.12:5; Rev.19:15).

3. "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" - this involves Satan's destruction with death and hell going into the "lake of fire" after the "thousand years" of Rev.20. That is when the "end" will happen.

 

[Naomi25]

But what you're not understanding is where Apostle Paul was pulling from in the OT about death being swallowed up in victory, more detail given there (Isaiah 25).

Isa 25:6-9
6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.
KJV

That "face of the covering" is about a veil per the Hebrew. So is that "vail". Notice it is linked to the idea of death being swallowed up in victory. That is about the change to the "spiritual body" that Paul taught in 1 Cor.15. It's going to happen to all nations, not just Christ's Church. But whoah! don't get the idea that the wicked will be of the same resurrection as Christ's Church in that time.

In 1 Corinthians 15:54, Apostle Paul gave 4 separate Greek words for "corruptible", "incorruption", "this mortal", and "immortality."


It's about 2 CHANGES:
1. "corruptible" (flesh) must be changed to a body of "incorruption" ("spiritual body")

AND...

2. "this mortal" (liable to die soul) must put on "immortality" (deathlessness)

The "resurrection of damnation" will NOT... go through the 2nd change, which is unto eternal Life in Christ Jesus. Their spirit body with soul will still be subject to the "second death" at the end of the 1,000 years.

Those in Christ will go through both changes unto eternal Life in Jesus.

I'm fairly certain we've been over this before. I can't say whether I agree with you or not, in regards to the different usages of corruptible/incorruptible and mortal/immortality, but in the final outcome, it doesn't actually change my view. I already believe that when the believers are given this 'new' being...both those dead and alive, that the unjust will be 'raised' and judged as well, at the same time. So in that regard, I also believe that 1 Cor 15 is supported/supporting the idea that everyone will experience a 'form' of resurrection...either to eternal life or eternal damnation.

 

[Keraz]

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

I had just said: 'plainly and indisputably' that the people raised at His coming, are those martyrs killed during the AC's rule -Revelation 20:4 The rest of the dead must await the GWT Judgment. Revelation 20:Revelation 20:5 & 11-15
Why argue against such clearly stated scripture?

The whole idea of a 'rapture to heaven' and anyone receiving immortality before the end of the Millennium, is wrong and is never stated in the Bible. To believe any of it, is to believe a lie

 

[Keraz]

I'm fairly certain we've been over this before. I can't say whether I agree with you or not, in regards to the different usages of corruptible/incorruptible and mortal/immortality, but in the final outcome, it doesn't actually change my view. I already believe that when the believers are given this 'new' being...both those dead and alive, that the unjust will be 'raised' and judged as well, at the same time. So in that regard, I also believe that 1 Cor 15 is supported/supporting the idea that everyone will experience a 'form' of resurrection...either to eternal life or eternal damnation.

YES, and it will all happen at the Last trumpet, at the end of the Millennium, at the end of the 7000 years that God has decreed for mankind, when God sits in Judgment and the Book of Life is opened.

 

[Naomi25]

You're reading the "Then comes the end" incorrectly.

1 Cor 15:24-26
24 Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father;
when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
KJV


The "end" happening is dependent upon a condition given there, i.e., the "when" of those two phrases in red. The 26th verse is a condition linked to verse 25.

1. "...when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father" - of course it's all over when Jesus does this, so this definitely signals the "end", but still doesn't reveal the "when".

2. "...when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power" - this "when" condition is more specific, and requires that Jesus reigns over all nations with His elect with "a rod of iron" as per Bible prophecy (Ps.2; Rev.2:27; Rev.12:5; Rev.19:15).

3. "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" - this involves Satan's destruction with death and hell going into the "lake of fire" after the "thousand years" of Rev.20. That is when the "end" will happen.

I'm sorry, but aren't you missing that 'defining factor' at the beginning of the passage?


[23] But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. [24] Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. [25] For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. [26] The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:23–26


23 starts by giving us the "key" to the timeline...it outright tells us there is an "order". Christ was the "first" of the resurrection, the first to receive a new imperishable body. THEN at his coming those who belong to him. That's what happens next...When Christ comes, THEN we will be the next to receive these bodies. 24 tells us THEN....(what comes AFTER that): when we have been given these new bodies, of which Christ was the firstfruits, THEN comes the end. And then he tells us that it is at this end WHEN he delivers the Kingdom to God.

You say that because it says the kingdom is delivered 'after', this means it must take time from his return before he can do this. However, this would seem to be in direct constrast to the "THEN comes the end WHEN he delivers".... In light of that precursor and given the rest of the passage, the only conclusion can be that these powers and authorities HAVE BEEN put under his feet at his arrival...perhaps BY his very arrival.
And I'll tell you why I say 'the only conclusion'. In verse 25 it says "For he must reign UNTIL he has put ALL his enemies under his feet. 26 - the last enemy is death.
This means two things: that the Kingdom cannot be delivered until death has been defeated and that WHEN death IS defeated, THEN the Kingdom is delivered and 'the end' comes.
So...when IS death defeated?


[51] Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. [53] For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. [54] When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.” -1 Corinthians 15:51–54

So...in light of these two, clear passages, we have an outline: Christ comes: at his return we are given our new, imperishable bodies, and at that point...BECAUSE of that point, Christ has defeated his last enemy and can give the Kingdom to his Father...and thus the end arrives.

 

[n2thelight]

Only believers in Christ are Israel. The unbelievers were removed and reduced to gentile status. Any will be reattached through faith in Christ only. (Romans 11).

Just like gentiles were grafted in,Israel can be grafted out.

Only two tree's we belong to one or the other,period,no in between!!!!

 

[bbyrd009]

I fear I am once again in danger of just not getting you. Do you agree that the actual word used IN scripture is 'harpazo' or not...because if you look up the greek, that is indeed what is used. And, if you do recognize the use of 'harpazo' instead of 'rapture'....why do you insist that it cannot be a harpazo, but must, instead be an emotional rapture?

Bible Search: Rapture
there are all the instances of "rapture" in the Bible, Naomi. Show me which is extracted from harpazo and we'll go from there

rapture' as an emotional state, I believe that the reason this particular word was used in conjuction with the 'harpazo' is because in Latin the word rapio basically means the same thing: to snatch away, to seize.

Fine, no prob, not mocking, show me where it is used like that then.

 

[Dave L]

It ain't about numbers, that's a poor excuse.

It's about 'events' we have been given that are to come to pass. The numbering system in Revelation is not how to understand the order of events leading up to Christ's return. Those numbers are there to point out the 7 main signs Jesus gave for the end in His Olivet discourse. Those signs are simply expanded on in His Revelation.

Most of Revelation has been fulfilled since the first advent. The reason you and other Dispensationalists missed it is because you look for the symbols to appear instead of what they represent. Try asking yourself what any of the symbols represent and then see if you can find it in history, or in the present or in things yet to happen.

 

[Dave L]

What you must understand is that AD was a type.That which has been shall happen again

When Christ feet hit the ground it's gonna be nothing like AD70 ,it's gonna be a TOTAL wipe out

AD 70 and Jesus' description of it was Jewish. Nothing that bad will ever happen again. Christians have tribulation between the first and second advents. But when Jesus returns, it will be just like today, as in the days of Noah. Marrying, giving in marriage and business as usual.

 

[bbyrd009]

The bible says "harpazo". We know that means a physical event, yeah?

as "physical" as your "death" at baptism is, sure

People call it "the Rapture", presumably because of the latin rapio, or that's what they say, and as it means the same as harpazo, that makes sense.

if it makes sense to you then go with that! I'm not aware of where Latin is used in any other exegesis myself, and I can't find it at any instance of harpazo nor our English "rapture," and you can't quote any either I guess
New International Version
From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it.

New Living Translation
And from the time John the Baptist began preaching until now, the Kingdom of Heaven has been forcefully advancing, and violent people are attacking it.

English Standard Version
From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force.

Berean Study Bible
From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subject to violence, and the violent lay claim to it.

Berean Literal Bible
And from the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of the heavens is taken by violence and the violent seize it.

make that = "rapture" if you want to, ok, fine with me. Gotta run

 

[Dave L]

We keep giving you scripture but you can't see it for some reason.

Produce one example. Prove you have direct scripture quotes for what you say.

 

[Dave L]

You still don't get it because you refuse to study the Word. Those 12 tribes under Christ will all be regenerated and redeemed Jews. So before you say another word do some serious Bible study, and avoid putting your foot in your mouth (for your own sake).

When Jesus abolished circumcision, only the believers from the 12 tribes remained. The unbelievers became gentiles and lost tribal membership.

 

[bbyrd009]

what did the preacher say when you were coming up out of the water, Naomi?\QUOTE

Did you get water up your nose?

ha, good one, you got jokes now
ok have a nice day

 

[bbyrd009]

So...what you're saying is that if a verse doesn't say "return" it's no good. Doesn't matter if is says "second coming", or "at his coming", or "he is near" (in regards to earth shattering events surrounding the world "seeing the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with great power and glory"), "Your Lord is coming", "You Lord will come", "At His coming", "Until the coming"....

A few interesting points come out of these things. We know "coming" means "arrival, approach or even advent". Which means these verses are talking of Christ's 'advent'....his 'second advent'. Where he came once, he will come again.
You suggest that Christ has not left us and that all we need to do is "return to him and he shall return to us". Which sounds great, and biblical and all. Except, well, you're ingoring large chunks of new revelation to arrive at that conclusion. Those verses, as I've pointed out previously, are found in the OT and are based on the old covenant promises...Israel had again turned her back on God and God has once again enacted the Covenant curses as was his right. But, as he is a loving God, he reminded his people: 'return to me, and I shall return to you'.
But...is that how things really work in the NT? Don't we have the new covenant in our relationship with God? Indeed we do. And while it is quite true that Jesus will never leave or forsake us, that promise is made through God himself (Hebrews 12:5) and fulfilled in the Holy Spirit, the member of the Trinity who is with us forever. The bible, however is quite clear on something: the Spirit will not come to dwell within us, unless Christ first leaves earth (John 16:7), which he very clearly did in Acts 1.
Thus, when we read all these verses of Christ "coming again" and how it is a very real, future expectation that will be accompanied by physical signs and disturbances in nature as well as physical changes for ourselves, it is not something we just read and think "huh....that must mean if I pray harder Jesus will show up in my life". No! We already have God in our lives! We have that promise and guarantee...that surety of the Spirit every moment of every day!

Finally...Peter gives us this: The "coming again" of Christ is scoffed at by unbelievers, but believers should be sure of it. That day will come and this world and all the heavens above us will pass away with a roar. This current world is moving towards something. It's not just about our everyday walk with Jesus. That is important, yes, but every Christian should look past that and see God's ultimate plan for his creation...all of creation.

knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” -2 Peter 3:3–4

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. -2 Peter 3:10–13

ok with me Naomi, keep looking up for a kingdom that obviously must come by observation then, and I wish you all the best there ok

 

[bbyrd009]

And yet, when someone attempts to pin you down about the actual words used in the text and your actual thoughts on what you believe, you dance around it

I dance around it? Me. The one who listed all the Scriptural instances of rapture, went to the Bible for harpazo, asking for the first example of harpazo xlated as rapture. I swear to God, Naomi, I know of no better illustration of thief in the night or something than this. You could not buy a convo like we have just had for any amount of gold I guess...unless maybe you are having a "conversation" with like trump or someone, I dunno. Should I laugh or cry?

You get the last word here ok, I don't know and hopefully made that plain, but I am not coming back to this thread except for revelations or confessions now.
And I hope you enjoy getting rapioed ok

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Snatching them out of the fire is a different context than the rapture.

Revelation 3:10, two in the field, etc is the correct context.
Meaning snatched from the earth.
Jude 23 New International Version (NIV)
23 save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.a]">[a]

How so? Same 726 harpázō.

 

[Naomi25]

I had just said: 'plainly and indisputably' that the people raised at His coming, are those martyrs killed during the AC's rule -Revelation 20:4 The rest of the dead must await the GWT Judgment. Revelation 20:Revelation 20:5 & 11-15
Why argue against such clearly stated scripture?

First, I don't consider what others "plainly and indisputably" state as fact to be just that, I consider what the bible says 'plainly and indisputably' to be fact.

[4] Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. [5] The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. [6] Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. -Revelation 20:4–6

Here's the thing about this passage; a lot of things it is...crystal clear is not one of them. If you want to state 'plainly and indisputably' your view on how it reads, go for it, but you need to back that up with more than just your word that it is índisputable.

Me? I see reference to souls of martyrs...of whom we have thousands. Christianity has always had martyrs and will always have them. And as John says, "Just as antichrist is coming, so many antichrist have come"...so must every generation of Christian refuse the system of this world and refuse the mark of the beast, choosing to follow Christ in thought and deed (forehead and hand).
I see John 5:24 telling us that in Christ we have passed from death to life and indeed, whether in this life, or the next, the second death has no hold on the Christian from that moment. And if the "Blessing" of the first resurrection is for the second death to have no power over us, then every single Christian belongs to that group...not just those who may 'come to life in the tribulation' or some such thing.

The whole idea of a 'rapture to heaven' and anyone receiving immortality before the end of the Millennium, is wrong and is never stated in the Bible. To believe any of it, is to believe a lie

Did I say I believed in a Rapture to heaven? Or that it was before the end of the Millennium? I believe neither. The Millennium will end at Christ's return, at which point we shall be raptured to meet him in the air (1 Thess 4:17) and then he will judge the nations, make all things new...including us. That means ushing in eternity.

 

[Naomi25]

I dance around it? Me. The one who listed all the Scriptural instances of rapture, went to the Bible for harpazo, asking for the first example of harpazo xlated as rapture. I swear to God, Naomi, I know of no better illustration of thief in the night or something than this. You could not buy a convo like we have just had for any amount of gold I guess...unless maybe you are having a "conversation" with like trump or someone, I dunno. Should I laugh or cry?

You get the last word here ok, I don't know and hopefully made that plain, but I am not coming back to this thread except for revelations or confessions now.
And I hope you enjoy getting rapioed ok

Look...I have absolutely no intention of ticking you off or trying to push you to frustration or what have you. I honestly try and figure out what you are saying, but its like you speak an entirely different language. I mean, you seem shocked at the thought of dancing around the idea...that you listed "scriptural instances of rapture"...I honestly have no idea of what references you are speaking of. If you do reference scripture its not in a way I recognize. I recognize your "return to me" quotes, but that's about it. You never list where or if you're using scripture...so what...it's just for us to guess?
You say you went to the bible for harpazo, but from my point of view I attempted my darndest to get out of you whether you saw that word as a physical description or something else and I never found out!!! And what on EARTH does "xlated" even mean?
Now...perhaps I am just a stupid, non-internet-user person who is not "down" with all the short cuts. Perhaps you could start a thread..."bbyrd shortcuts for dummies"? I don't know. Maybe it's because I'm autistic, but most of the time, I can't even seem to figure out if any of your sentences actually make sense...grammatically.
So, sorry. Yes, it was a mistake on my part to think that perhaps we could strike up a conversation again. I don't hold you any ill will....I just simply....can't talk with you.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Isa 25:6-9
6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.
KJV

That "face of the covering" is about a veil per the Hebrew. So is that "vail". Notice it is linked to the idea of death being swallowed up in victory. That is about the change to the "spiritual body" that Paul taught in 1 Cor.15. It's going to happen to all nations, not just Christ's Church. But whoah! don't get the idea that the wicked will be of the same resurrection as Christ's Church in that time.

Worth repeating. “death swallowed up in victory.”

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Those who will serve Jesus Christ at His table during the future Millennium are His Church. They are called the Zadok because that simply is a name meaning 'The Just', or the Righteous, and Jesus is King of the Righteous.

Though the pre-trib rapture school misteaches the following verses, in reality it is about the abodes of the priests in Ezekiel's temple, called The Father's House...

John 14:2-3
2 In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
KJV

Ezek 44:15-16
15 But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of My sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from Me, they shall come near to Me to minister unto Me, and they shall stand before Me to offer unto Me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD:
16 They shall enter into My sanctuary, and they shall come near to My table, to minister unto Me, and they shall keep My charge.
KJV

Only those will be allowed to approach Christ during that future time.


Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
KJV

Was Jesus speaking to Jews only with the above Message in Rev.3:9 to the Church of Philadelphia? No, He spoke that for His elect Church of both Israelite and Gentile! Those false Jews will worship Christ at 'their' feet simply because His elect will be next to Jesus when that happens. This relates to these being the symbolic Zadok of Ezek.44.

A few questions here “Was Jesus speaking to Jews only with the above Message in Rev.3:9 to the Church of Philadelphia? No, He spoke that for His elect Church of both Israelite and Gentile!”

Why will the true Jew want or desire the false Jew to worship at His feet. The cover(vail) you showed removed covering the people has to happen before Rev 3:9.

There is a lot in Joseph telling his brothers they would all bow to him. Genesis 50:15-20 And when Joseph's brethren saw that their father was dead, they said, Joseph will peradventure hate us, and will certainly requite us all the evil which we did unto him. [16] And they sent a messenger unto Joseph, saying, Thy father did command before he died, saying, [17] So shall ye say unto Joseph, Forgive, I pray thee now, the trespass of thy brethren, and their sin; for they did unto thee evil: and now, we pray thee, forgive the trespass of the servants of the God of thy father. And Joseph wept when they spake unto him. [18] And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants. [19] And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God? [20] But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

“...will certainly requite us all the evil which we did unto him.” ...and Joseph wept.