Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

[CoreIssue]

Strong's Greek: 726. ἁρπάζω (harpazó) -- to seize, catch up, snatch away

(Jude 1:23)... “snatching” them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Snatching 726 harpázō
Jude 1:23 Lexicon: save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.

Snatching them out of the fire is a different context than the rapture.

Revelation 3:10, two in the field, etc is the correct context.
Meaning snatched from the earth.
Jude 23 New International Version (NIV)
23 save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.a]">[a]

 

[Copperhead]

We Christians are the Israel of God. We represent the 12 tribes and we inherit all the Promises of God, thru Jesus. 2 Corinthians 1:20

That passage doesn't even come close to supporting the assertion you are making. the very same guy who wrote that also wrote this, and when he did, he was clearly delineating between the body of Messiah and physical, literal Hebrews....

Romans 11:28-29 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

We do not inherit the promises made in a corporate way to the Hebrews. Even the New Covenant has nothing to do with those of the Body of Messiah. It is made with the Hebrew people, the same people the Sinai Covenant was made with.....

Jeremiah 31:31-32 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.

YHVH is the husband of Israel, the Hebrew people. That is shown all thru the OT. The redeemed are the bride of Yeshua. Two distinct entities. And election is not justification. Physical, literal Israel is elect per Isaiah and Romans. The redeemed are elect. One is on a national level that includes even those who are not justified, the other is a group that only includes those who are justified. There are elect angels also, but one would have a real tough time proving that Yeshua became a man to die for angels.

I would contend that Revelation 2:9 and Revelation 3:9 need to be taken seriously. I know some try to reverse it and play semantic word games, but the plain simple reading (the "golden rule" of hermeneutics) of those passage is a warning against replacement theology.

 

[Enoch111]

Obviously all of Israel is far more than the few Messianic Jews. There may be about 20,000 of them now.

Messianic Jews -- even though they isolate themselves from Gentile Christians -- are actually within the Church (redeemed Jews and Gentiles in one Body). But once the fulness of the Gentiles has come in, that is the end of the entity known as "the Church".

Then following the Second Coming of Christ all the unsaved Jews worldwide will be gathered supernaturally to the land of Israel to either believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (or not). They will see Him face-to-face. That believing remnant will enter into the Promised Land and the Millennial Kingdom of Christ.

EZEKIEL 36
21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

 

[Davy]

I would disagree in that, as you are replacing one group with another or at a minimum, merging the two. The Covenant with the Hebrew people was a corporate Covenant. The Covenant with the believers is individually. The New Covenant is with the same corporate Hebrew people as the Sinai Covenant. Israel was and will be again the wife of YHVH, the believers in the church make up the bride of Yeshua. It is schizophrenia to say that the believers are now the virgin bride of Yeshua when they were the wife of YHVH.

Be careful of Revelation 2:9 and Revelation 3:9.

No replacement going on, a casting off... of the unbelieving and rebellious instead is what it is.

John 12:37-43
37 But though He had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on Him:

38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, 'Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?'

39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

40 'He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.'

41 These things said Esaias, when he saw His glory, and spake of Him.

42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on Him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
KJV

 

[Naomi25]

emotional state, hmm. Funny you say that, imo it is ppl doing that, not Scripture
Another imo telling use of harpazo is "...and violent men take it by force," which sorry I'm on the run now and you know the v anyway I guess right, or google does

Ok. I'm dancing right on the edge of my familiar frustration with you again. First, to my mind, you make a big deal about mocking the 'rapture' because it cannot possibly be a 'physical expectation'...silly us! No...it's about an emotional connection we have with Christ, right? Return to me and I will return to you...right? You're pushing this notion that the bible is talking about an emotional connection and experience with Christ (who never left us and it seems that way its just because we need to 'return' to him).
And yet, when someone attempts to pin you down about the actual words used in the text and your actual thoughts on what you believe, you dance around it; "its people talking about an emotional state, not scripture"? In point of fact, I thought it was you talking about an emotional state. You talking about how the bible addressed it.
Then you toss out something like "violent men take it by force". What...is that some attempt to change how we see the word itself being used?

So...here's where I'm at. Talking to you is like a rat running through a maze. Maybe there's a chance of finding my way through, but mostly, that chance is met with white men wearing lab coats at the other end....not a cheery thought.
So, once again, before my frustration levels go through the roof, I'm going to wave goodbye!

 

[Davy]

I would disagree in that, as you are replacing one group with another or at a minimum, merging the two. The Covenant with the Hebrew people was a corporate Covenant. The Covenant with the believers is individually. The New Covenant is with the same corporate Hebrew people as the Sinai Covenant. Israel was and will be again the wife of YHVH, the believers in the church make up the bride of Yeshua. It is schizophrenia to say that the believers are now the virgin bride of Yeshua when they were the wife of YHVH.

Be careful of Revelation 2:9 and Revelation 3:9.

You're simply misguided. You think those born of Israel will have some 'special' salvation unto themselves.

I tell you, there is only one Salvation, and it is through the Blood of Jesus Christ. You are either in HIS Salvation or in nothing at all!
And His Salvation was FIRST preached to Abraham, as written in Galatians 3 by Apostle Paul! Thus all those of Faith that believed as Abraham, have become... the children of Abraham, and are heirs... with Abraham.

Gal 3:6-9
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Those of Faith, the same are now the children of Abraham. The New Covenant is the Promised Gospel of Jesus Christ which was preached to Abraham. Jesus even proclaimed to the blind Jews how Abraham saw His day, and was glad (John 8).


8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, 'In thee shall all nations be blessed.'
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
KJV

All... believers in The Gospel of Jesus Christ are blessed 'with'... faithful Abraham.


Gal 3:18
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
KJV

This Gal.3:18 verse is proof... that the inheritance is NOT BY THE LAW. God gave the inheritance to Abraham by Promise; Abraham believed God and it was accounted to Abraham as righteousness! It is the same... for every Israelite AND Gentile believer on Christ Jesus. Christ's Church inherits WITH Abraham.



Gal 3:22
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
KJV

Gal 3:26-29
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

 

[Davy]

A proper understanding of the Abrahamic Covenant shows that within that covenant:
1. Christ is the seed of Abraham
2. The Church (all believers) is the seed of Abraham
3. Redeemed and restored Israel is also the seed of Abraham.

The land of Israel was NOT given to the Church but to the 12 tribes of Israel. Therefore Replacement Theology is bogus.
....

Those who will serve Jesus Christ at His table during the future Millennium are His Church. They are called the Zadok because that simply is a name meaning 'The Just', or the Righteous, and Jesus is King of the Righteous.

Though the pre-trib rapture school misteaches the following verses, in reality it is about the abodes of the priests in Ezekiel's temple, called The Father's House...

John 14:2-3
2 In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
KJV

Ezek 44:15-16
15 But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of My sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from Me, they shall come near to Me to minister unto Me, and they shall stand before Me to offer unto Me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD:
16 They shall enter into My sanctuary, and they shall come near to My table, to minister unto Me, and they shall keep My charge.
KJV

Only those will be allowed to approach Christ during that future time.


Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
KJV

Was Jesus speaking to Jews only with the above Message in Rev.3:9 to the Church of Philadelphia? No, He spoke that for His elect Church of both Israelite and Gentile! Those false Jews will worship Christ at 'their' feet simply because His elect will be next to Jesus when that happens. This relates to these being the symbolic Zadok of Ezek.44.

 

[Davy]

Numbers are symbolic in Revelation. You miss the message making them literal. Jesus told the disciples they would see the great tribulation in Matthew 24. He addressed them in the 2nd person plural = they would see it which they did in 70AD.

It ain't about numbers, that's a poor excuse.

It's about 'events' we have been given that are to come to pass. The numbering system in Revelation is not how to understand the order of events leading up to Christ's return. Those numbers are there to point out the 7 main signs Jesus gave for the end in His Olivet discourse. Those signs are simply expanded on in His Revelation.

 

[Davy]

What is funny is the ones that think we who are pretrib only believe that because someone told us, sorry to disappoint, but it is what I read in the scriptures. What is scary is how many like yourself attack others in Christendom, & misuse and misrepresent scriptures, that is where the worst attacks against Christianity are from within.
You peddle the Replacement Theology..... So you think you're one of the 12 tribes do ya? Nah, really nope.

You mean it is what you "read INTO the scriptures", instead of "read in the scriptures", don't you?

There is no pre-trib rapture written of in God's Holy Writ. Furthermore, Christ made it plain that His second coming and gathering of His Church is on the last day of this present world.

 

[Davy]

You still don't get it because you refuse to study the Word. Those 12 tribes under Christ will all be regenerated and redeemed Jews. So before you say another word do some serious Bible study, and avoid putting your foot in your mouth (for your own sake).

You really don't know what you're talking about, because the ten northern tribes of Israel never were known... by the title of Jew.

The title of Jew comes from the tribe of Judah, and only those living in Judea joined with the "house of Judah" referred to themselves as Jews (as per the Jewish historian Josephus - 100 A.D.).

Apostle Paul said he was a Jew, yet he was born of the tribe of Benjamin. The reason he used the title of Jew was because the tribe of Benjamin was joined with the tribe of Judah after God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms after Solomon's days (starting at 1 Kings 11).

Take some time to read your Old Testament history.

 

[Davy]

God does not assign Gentile Christians to the 12 tribes and then give them portions of the land of Israel. That would be bizarre and unscriptural. Indeed the 12 tribes are clearly identified in Revelation 7 along with the Church, and in Ezekiel 48 there can be no doubt that the 12 tribes will be placed in the land as shown.

I guess you didn't get the Memo from the CEO (Christ)...

Matt 8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV

Matt 3:9-10
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
KJV

Matt 21:42-43
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
KJV

Rom 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
KJV

 

[Davy]

As Christ said: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. (Mk 4:12)

Jesus actually said that about the blind unbelieving Jews. He was quoting from Isaiah.

 

[Davy]

Yes, Ezekiel 37:11 tells us that in the "dry bones" prophecy, the "bones" represent the whole house of Israel--i.e. ALL 12 Tribes. God knows where the Ten Lost Tribes are today and He will supernaturally bring them back to the Millennial Kingdom. Even today, the Israelis know that all of the priests (descendants of Aaron) possess a certain gene that is characteristic of only them. To be a priest in the upcoming Temple, a man (it only occurs in males) would need to possess the specific gene to qualify for training to perform priestly duties. If I recall correctly, they found an enclave of men with the gene on a small island off the coast of Morocco.

Not all Israel is going to enter back into the lands of old.

Ezek 20:35-38
35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD.

37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
KJV

That Scripture reveals the rebels of Israel will not enter into the holy land. So if the unbelievers of Israel still hold to their unbelief, they will not be restored. All... regardless of birth, must bow to Jesus Christ as LORD.

 

[Davy]

Like the warning from Gamaliel, those who oppose God's plans for Israel, may find themselves fighting against God. Not a good place to be found. God often pronounced judgment on the nations who persecuted Israel--even those who merely laughed at Israel's misfortune.

That would include those like yourself who apparently forgot to read the Ezekiel 20:38 Scripture more closely.

Moreover, the pre-trib rapture falsely teaches Christ comes prior to the great tribulation to take His Church to Heaven, while during the Millennium the nation of Israel has a fleshy kingdom on earth. That is so... un-Biblical! Foolish believers on man's pre-trib rapture doctrines don't know Darby came up with that idea just to try and create more support for the pre-trib rapture. No such idea is written.

What is written, is that after Jesus returns to gather His Church on the last day of this world, He with His elect will rule ON EARTH in Jerusalem over the nations with "a rod of iron" (Psalms 2). Rev.20 shows that right after His future thousand years reign, Satan is loosed and his host comes up against the "camp of the saints" on earth!

 

[Davy]

Hi 'friend of'. The thing about building doctrines...any doctrine...be it Dispensational or Amillennial, is that we pull different verses together that give us a better view of what we're trying to look at. So, sure....1 Thess 4:17 only mentions the 'dead in Christ'. I expect that's because Paul is only speaking to a Christian audience...we see that their concern was what had happened to those who have died before the return of the Lord returned. Paul comforts them by giving them the information they seek....if they have previously died but were "in the Lord", they will not be left behind...indeed, they shall preceed you!"

However...that is not the only verse in the bible that speaks of when the 'dead shall be raised'.


Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. -John 5:28–29

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. -Daniel 12:2

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. -Revelation 20:11–15


So...we can see that the bible does talk about the "Just" and "unjust" being awoken and judged together. So, when taken with the other passages that tell us that the "believing dead" are raised at the same time at "those of us who are left and alive", me must conclude that all these things actually take place at the same time.

Also, in regards to the "First resurrection"....scripture quite clearly tells us that when we place our trust in Christ, we pass from death to life:

John 5:24 - Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

If we "do not come into judgement", which we know to be the lake of fire, the second death, then is it not sensible to assume that the first resurrection is that momentous transaction that Christ performs when he takes our old, dead self and replaces it with new life?

But what you're not understanding is where Apostle Paul was pulling from in the OT about death being swallowed up in victory, more detail given there (Isaiah 25).

Isa 25:6-9
6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.
KJV

That "face of the covering" is about a veil per the Hebrew. So is that "vail". Notice it is linked to the idea of death being swallowed up in victory. That is about the change to the "spiritual body" that Paul taught in 1 Cor.15. It's going to happen to all nations, not just Christ's Church. But whoah! don't get the idea that the wicked will be of the same resurrection as Christ's Church in that time.

In 1 Corinthians 15:54, Apostle Paul gave 4 separate Greek words for "corruptible", "incorruption", "this mortal", and "immortality."


It's about 2 CHANGES:
1. "corruptible" (flesh) must be changed to a body of "incorruption" ("spiritual body")

AND...

2. "this mortal" (liable to die soul) must put on "immortality" (deathlessness)

The "resurrection of damnation" will NOT... go through the 2nd change, which is unto eternal Life in Christ Jesus. Their spirit body with soul will still be subject to the "second death" at the end of the 1,000 years.

Those in Christ will go through both changes unto eternal Life in Jesus.

 

[Naomi25]

You have made it into something I didn't say. I didn't say that there is "a different salvational plan"--we are ALL saved through the Blood of Jesus. But it applies differently to different people. A little baby who dies is saved by the Blood of Jesus but it does not require confession and repentance on his/her part because they have not sinned (and they would be unable to confess and repent anyway). A Jew who receives salvation must understand that Jesus is the longed-for Messiah of Israel. It does them no good to agree that He was a "nice Jewish man" who "said a lot of good things"--a "good moral teacher". A Gentile who comes to Him does not have to recognize the Law of Moses--merely the Ten Commandments and especially the ones quoted by Jesus. Jews were told to celebrate the festivals of Yahweh always--it is part of their inheritance--one that will come into force in the Millennial Kingdom. As a side note, it really is rather silly when Gentiles try to become Jews, figuring that somehow makes them holier. That question was settled early in the life of the Church. It is apparently saying that the Blood of Jesus is not enough. The Apostle Paul puts down that line of reasoning pretty effectively. The Blood of Jesus is the most powerful force in the universe. Through Him, all things are held together. (Colossians 1:17)

I'm sorry if I made your question into something it was not, that was not my goal at all...I was only attempting to answer the question as I saw it...sorry if I got it wrong.
If I now go on and do the same, forgive, again...not my intent.
I know most Dispensationalists agree that Jewish people still must call on the name of Jesus to be saved. However, it is there that they draw the line and say what it appears you have above, that "it applies differently to different people". The problem with that is that the NT systematically demolishes it.


But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. -Galatians 3:25–28

Paul takes away any notion of there being 'two systems in Christ', if I can put it that way. He says we are "all one in Christ". But...in case there are those (for indeed there are) who fear that the promises made to Abraham and the nation of Israel are therefore not being fulfilled by God in this manner, Paul goes on to say:

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. -Romans 9:6–8

So...not all Jews are "Israel", right? It's the "children of the promise" who are "counted as offspring". Who are the "children of promise"?

And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. -Galatians 3:29

That would be us...the Church. But of course, according to Paul, the Church has only been grafted onto the "root":

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. -Romans 11:17–18

So, you can see why there cannot be a 'separate' plan, or a 'difference in application' of the salvational plan according to scripture. There is Christ, and there are those who are growing from him, either naturally, or by being grafted there. Jews who believe in Christ are grafted in, just as the Gentiles were, and become Christians, members of the church.
But nowhere in scripture does Christ, or Paul, give us any sort of leave to say that any of these Jews who come to believe in Christ, become anything other then members of the Church, fellow believers like you and I, children of promise.

 

[Davy]

....
Paul takes away any notion of there being 'two systems in Christ', if I can put it that way. He says we are "all one in Christ". But...in case there are those (for indeed there are) who fear that the promises made to Abraham and the nation of Israel are therefore not being fulfilled by God in this manner, Paul goes on to say:

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. -Romans 9:6–8

So...not all Jews are "Israel", right? It's the "children of the promise" who are "counted as offspring". Who are the "children of promise"?

And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. -Galatians 3:29

That would be us...the Church. But of course, according to Paul, the Church has only been grafted onto the "root":

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. -Romans 11:17–18

So, you can see why there cannot be a 'separate' plan, or a 'difference in application' of the salvational plan according to scripture. There is Christ, and there are those who are growing from him, either naturally, or by being grafted there. Jews who believe in Christ are grafted in, just as the Gentiles were, and become Christians, members of the church.
But nowhere in scripture does Christ, or Paul, give us any sort of leave to say that any of these Jews who come to believe in Christ, become anything other then members of the Church, fellow believers like you and I, children of promise.

Very good.

 

[Naomi25]

I can forgive you and God will too, if you have made a genuine mistake.

You know, I think that applies both ways. Especially on forums like this. You don't know me, not really; you don't know my intent, my thoughts or desires or hopes. So when you engage in open conversation with others, who are here with the acknowledged intent to talk about doctrinal differences, I think perhaps it's best that you take a form of language that was intended to be polite deference as is, and drop the holier than thou replies in return.
If I make a mistake and need to apologise, I will. But voicing my opinion on something and being polite about it is not something you have the right to get facetious about.

But you seem to do anything to support your belief of a 'rapture', a removal from any nasty future events and that means a body change before the final Judgement after the Millennium.

First...hello...its a discussion board. We are here to discuss our thoughts, opinions and differences on these matters. Hence, the debate. If all you want is a teaching platform, you're in the wrong place.
Second, do you even read my posts? I advocate for Christ's return AFTER all the 'future nasty events'. That means any 'body change' will happen as we go into the eternal state. We don't skip out or miss anything.

Scripture does say that any person who believes in Jesus will have Eternal Life. This is our promise and when we receive that promise, is when ALL mankind will stand before God at the Great White throne Judgement. NOT before.

But when is the GWT judgement? This is the area of conversation. This is where other scriptures come into play and suggest a timeline of things...or more to the point, a lack of one. No 7 year tribulation to bust up a 1 and 2 '2nd coming'. No future Millennium...
But, perhaps you don't wish to debate such things, in which case, I'll not waste my time.

Also the Bible says several times that it is possible to have our names removed from the Book of Life, so the Promise can be revoked.
Your belief has people alive during the Millennium, who are in Eternal bodies. This idea contradicts all we are told about the 1000 year reign of Jesus and is quite illogical.

Ah...no it doesn't. Millennium = now. Jesus return = end of Millennium and end of this Age and entering into the eternal state. THAT'S the point everyone gets their shinny new bodies...then and only then, when we move into eternity.

Those whose names are found in the Book of Life, do not come into Judgment, they are deemed worthy of Eternal life.
The GWT Judgment will be a quick and simple process and as it involves every person who has ever lived, it needs to be!

Not sure I've ever disagreed with that...

The first resurrection, Revelation 20:4, is plainly, indisputably, just those killed for their faith during the 1260 day reign of the Anti-Christ.

Well, "plainly, indisputably" is still a problem, probably, as Amillennialists view that particular time period (the last 3.5 years) to refer to pretty much this entire interadvental period. Which would bring me back to the whole "the first resurrection is putting our faith in Christ and passing from death into life" thing.

 

[Naomi25]

Please provide the verse where Paul tells us when his prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, will happen at the Return of Jesus. Or make a retraction.

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:23–26


I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.” -1 Corinthians 15:50–54


I didn't post the chunk of verses inbetween the two to save space, but they are speaking of the resurrection, so Paul is still, clearly, speaking of the SAME thing and the SAME event.

 

[Naomi25]

A key element to this is a misinterpretation of what is the day of the Lord.

It is not one single day. It begins at the pretrib rapture and ends after the destruction of the earth and those events. It lasted at least 1000 years.

Around and around we go!
You: "You! You cannot make 1000 years longer than 1000 years! You are bad and non-literal and will cause all of biblical inerrancy to cease to be with your spiritualizing and evilness!"
Me: "Then how come you get to make 24 hours into 1000 years?"
You: "Because!"