Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.
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Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Matthew 23:38-39 KJV
[38] Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. [39] For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Tecarta Bible
Gee whiz! Another insult--is that all you Calvinists can think of to do when confronted with logic?
I'm getting closer and closer to putting you on "ignore" but I find you amusing at the moment. It might lead to further amusement to trade insults--you went first so now I will add mine to you: It sounds like you live in a pumpkin--seedy and smelly.
Okay, now it's your turn. Carry on.
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And would you like to tell us what THAT has to do with anything we were discussing??
They don't "stand for" anything other than what they actually are -- heavenly bodies. So please note again that there is no flim-flam in this verse. John saw exactly what would happen after the Great Tribulation:
REVELATION 6 (FUTURE ACTUAL COSMIC EVENTS)
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
You cannot pluck a verse out of the chapter and give a different meaning in the context of the chapter.
Read the whole chapter. There are numerous things there that still have not been fulfilled to this day.
Such as:
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
The 12 stars are the 12 tribes of Israel. The sun is Isaac and the moon Rachel. Father, mother and children, Israel.
Genesis 37 New International Version (NIV)
Joseph’s Dreams
37 Jacob lived in the land where his father had stayed, the land of Canaan.
2 This is the account of Jacob’s family line.
Joseph, a young man of seventeen, was tending the flocks with his brothers, the sons of Bilhah and the sons of Zilpah, his father’s wives, and he brought their father a bad report about them.
3 Now Israel loved Joseph more than any of his other sons, because he had been born to him in his old age; and he made an ornatea]">[a] robe for him. 4 When his brothers saw that their father loved him more than any of them, they hated him and could not speak a kind word to him.
5 Joseph had a dream, and when he told it to his brothers, they hated him all the more. 6 He said to them, “Listen to this dream I had: 7 We were binding sheaves of grain out in the field when suddenly my sheaf rose and stood upright, while your sheaves gathered around mine and bowed down to it.”
8 His brothers said to him, “Do you intend to reign over us? Will you actually rule us?” And they hated him all the more because of his dream and what he had said.
9 Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”
10 When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?” 11 His brothers were jealous of him, but his father kept the matter in mind.
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And we have solid documentation showing all that happened.
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
Copperhead
Well-Known Member
Copperhead
Well-Known Member
Isaiah seems to say that the righteous dead are risen before the Lord comes out to punish the earth and are hidden in their rooms just like Yeshua told us He was preparing places for us. That would be before the Great Tribulation which is the last 3.5 years at least. But it could be sooner than that. Isaiah only says that it will happen before, just not how long before.
Isaiah 26:19-21 Your dead will live;
Their corpses will rise.
You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy,
For your dew is as the dew of the dawn,
And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.
20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms
And close your doors behind you;
Hide for a little while
Until indignation runs its course.
21 For behold, the Lord is about to come out from His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
And the earth will reveal her bloodshed
And will no longer cover her slain.
John 14:1-3 Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Seems pretty clear cut to me. But then, I generally take the Occam's Razor (Law of Parsimony, but also similar to the Golden Rule of Hermeneutics) approach to passages before getting all bogged down in esoteric, hidden spiritual meanings with no objective foundation which can lead to a morass of convoluted ideas.
Now, to be fair, I would agree with you if you were talking about only the unredeemed dead. If you were talking about them you would be correct about them not being risen until the GWT. For the righteous dead, they do not participate in the GWT and there is no need to check the books. It is just like the Passover in Egypt. The redeemed (both dead and living) sins have been removed as far as the east is from the west. Their justification is assured thru the blood of Yeshua. All that YHVH sees when He looks at those who are redeemed is His Son. Our judgement is at the bema judgement that is for rewards based on faithful service. Not judgement of our justification, for we have already passed from death to life when we trust in Yeshua.
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Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
When people make themselves the focal point of scripture(typically narsacists) that is when the deceit comes into place. Christ should always be center.
Forget how wonderfully special you are and how Jesus wants to carry you away on a cloud for just one second if possible,,,,
Now who makes desolate?
I'd rather live in a bubble then a smelly pumpkin! lol!Gee whiz! Another insult--is that all you Calvinists can think of to do when confronted with logic?
I'm getting closer and closer to putting you on "ignore" but I find you amusing at the moment. It might lead to further amusement to trade insults--you went first so now I will add mine to you: It sounds like you live in a pumpkin--seedy and smelly.
Projection or what?? Too far from you to just say you don't see it the same way? How is it you have to be insulting but act like YOU are the one that's superior???
Correct!
The Greek (for 'rapture') can describe how a dust storm picks up or tumble-weed gets picked and 'rolled up' being 'blown' or 'forced together'.
The redeemed will be brought together on earth to meet the Lord in the air. They will stay on earth while the Lord will come down to them at his Coming, to "bring them up" from the grave and carry them and gather ('rapture') them together unto Himself.
John describes the event as the saved who will go into Jerusalem while the wicked will gather outside the city against them and the Lamb.
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Dispensationalists (hêppie klêppies) not only divide God's one people, the Israel-of-God--"People of God" in Hebrews 4:9, into two peoples, a false church and a false Israel, they divide God's one only Eternal New Covenant of Grace, into two, false, 'covenants' which they call 'the old (temporary) covenant' and confuse with what they call the 'old law (of Ten Commandments)'; and the 'New Covenant' which they confuse with the 'Spirit' and then call it 'the new law' and many other things.
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Looks like you are the one who is seriously confused. Take some time to seriously study this instead of throwing around half-baked ideas.
I'm just telling you what they say!
E. W. Bullinger, D.D.:
"All that we have learned from our youth up must be tested and proved by the Word of God. Where we find it is true we must learn it over again, from God. And where it will not stand the test of His Word we must be not only content, but thankful to give it up; and receive Divine revelation in the place of man's imagination."
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