Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

[Copperhead]

Yes, I agree. There are only two resurrections: the resurrection to life

Well, LC, there really is more than 2. The first resurrection of the saints occurred in Matthew 27:51-52. Now the text does not say specifically what happened to them, but many of the EC writers claimed they were taken to the Father by Yeshua. That would comport with the first fruits of the harvest presentation to the Father by the High Priest, Yeshua in accordance with Leviticus 23. Likely the reason Yeshua told Mary not to touch Him as He had not yet ascended to the Father. As High Priest, He would have to remain ceremonially pure to do that.

Of course, I am confident that someone will get their panties all in a wad with what I said. But it is out there for all to see if they read the text and read what the early church writers said about that event.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Well, LC, there really is more than 2. The first resurrection of the saints occurred in Matthew 27:51-52. Now the text does not say specifically what happened to them, but many of the EC writers claimed they were taken to the Father by Yeshua. That would comport with the first fruits of the harvest presentation to the Father by the High Priest, Yeshua in accordance with Leviticus 23. Likely the reason Yeshua told Mary not to touch Him as He had not yet ascended to the Father. As High Priest, He would have to remain ceremonially pure to do that.

Of course, I am confident that someone will get their panties all in a wad with what I said. But it is out there for all to see if they read the text and read what the early church writers said about that event.

I consider the saints who were raised with Jesus to be the "First Fruits" of the Harvest/Resurrection to Life. That is why those included in the First Resurrection (which will include those raised to immortality in the Rapture and those believers raised to immortality during the Tribulation--represented by the Two Witnesses) to be all one resurrection. The Second Resurrection to the Final Judgment will, I think, for the most part, be a resurrection to death--being totally separated from God, the only source of life in the universe.

 

[Keraz]

I don't believe so, as being redeemed by its very nature means passed from death to life.

John 3:16 …...everyone who has faith in Jesus will not perish, but have eternal life.
But believers still die naturally or as millions have been and still are; killed for their faith.
Obviously then, this scripture is a Promise, for a future time. We are told when that time will be, Revelation 20:11-15, when ALL the dead will stand before God in Judgment, after the Millennium.
THEN the Book of Life will be opened and those whose names are found in it, will receive immortality, those not found get annihilated. [Or, if you like this better; burn forever in the Lake of fire]
NOWHERE does the Bible say anyone receives immortality or even spiritual bodies, before then. So the idea of a 'rapture to heaven' at any time, is just a false theory.

Re the 10 Northern Tribes, I stand by Ezekiel 37. That prophecy plainly awaits fulfilment, THEN Judah and Israel will rejoin. Jeremiah 50:4-5 will come to pass.

 

[Copperhead]

I consider the saints who were raised with Jesus to be the "First Fruits" of the Harvest/Resurrection to Life. That is why those included in the First Resurrection (which will include those raised to immortality in the Rapture and those believers raised to immortality during the Tribulation--represented by the Two Witnesses) to be all one resurrection. The Second Resurrection to the Final Judgment will, I think, for the most part, be a resurrection to death--being totally separated from God, the only source of life in the universe.

Yeah, I can see that reasoning.

 

[Copperhead]

Re the 10 Northern Tribes, I stand by Ezekiel 37. That prophecy plainly awaits fulfilment, THEN Judah and Israel will rejoin. Jeremiah 50:4-5 will come to pass.

Ok. That's fine. I see it as all tribes already regathered in the land now. So I see it as plainly having been and being fulfilled. And even more so when one takes into account the miraculous events that happened in the 6 day war and the Yom Kippur War. Some events just can't be explained away. And the modern state of Israel timing of May 1948 fits with Ezekiel 4 / Leviticus 26 when the years are calculated out.

And also, to fulfill Hosea 5:14-15 / Matthew 23:37-39 there has to a be both houses in view with a common leadership over them. And it might be taking liberties (I don't think so) with the verses that follow, but looking at Hosea 6:1-2 when viewed in light of 2 Peter 3:8 and Psalms 90:4 (meeting the two witnesses requirement of the Torah) it would seem that we are right at the timing period also. If we go from 30AD two thousand years we come to 2030.

Anyway, we all probably have some aspects to all this wrong to one degree or another. But we can be sure that time is running out. We can know the signs of the final days coming. The fact that so many spend so much time working thru the prophecies about the end times is just another marker that confirms the time is coming upon us. I used to think that I wish I had been born at a different time so I would be assured of not having to see the time start. Now, I would have had it no other way. To see the events of the last 50 years along with the stage being set as we discuss these things, it has indeed been a blessing of the Lord to allow me to see these things fit into place.

So knowing all that, we can quibble over details and even get a little enthused in our discussions, but we do need to keep our focus on reaching others with the Gospel message and bringing them into the family. So many that will be lost and we will have to account for what we did or didn't do. Now that is more intimidating than a Great Tribulation period!

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

But we can be sure that time is running out. We can know the signs of the final days coming. The fact that so many spend so much time working thru the prophecies about the end times is just another marker that confirms the time is coming upon us. I used to think that I wish I had been born at a different time so I would be assured of not having to see the time start. Now, I would have had it no other way. To see the events of the last 50 years along with the stage being set as we discuss these things, it has indeed been a blessing of the Lord to allow me to see these things fit into place.

There are objective criteria that even non-believers can see. One is the matter of the Genetic Entropy that will, within a few decades, cause the world's population to shrink drastically (if the End of Days does not come sooner). John Sanford, Ph.D. has done a very interesting work on it that is accessible to lay people. Sanford says that all world-class population geneticists understand that it is a problem but prefer not to talk about it. Perhaps they believe that humans will, through genetic tinkering, be able to circumvent the problem, but Sanford illustrates in his book, Genetic Entropy, why it hasn't worked so far and also why it is unlikely to ever do much to counter the problem.

Sanford is an interesting guy. He started off as an atheist, then, through his study in genetics, he came to the conclusion that all life had to be designed by some massive intelligence because the design of life is so incredibly intricate. He began calling himself a deist and then, when he considered all the claims of major religions, he became a Christian.

Sanford says that it only takes a 3% mutational rate to start a species on a path to extinction. Over half of all plant species which have ever lived are now extinct. The animal kingdom is not far behind and many, many animal species have already become extinct. The human genome has been estimated to be close to the 3% mark. When God announced the judgment on Adam and Eve, He actually said, in the Hebrew, "Dying you will die." It must have started a process of deterioration of the genome that not only continues to this day but is also accelerating because of our exposure to toxins in our air, water and food. Interestingly, after the Flood, the ages at death of the patriarchs continued to decline. It seems likely that God will soon repair the genomes of all life on the planet, as Isaiah tells us that long life will return. But still mankind will not be immortal. It will take the completion of the Resurrection to Life to accomplish that. And even in Eternity, we will need the healing power of the leaves of the Tree of Life and to eat of its fruit.

 

[Copperhead]

I can see that, LC. My area in college was more in math and geology, so biology was not my forte, but had enough physics to understand that, I believe, the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics kicked in when Adam and Eve messed up so we have been in a downward trend ever since. And that would most definitely apply to genetics as well.

Interesting. Will have to make some time to check that out. Along the same line, Barry Setterfield of Australia has done similar analysis on light and atomic processes. Entropy is impacting everything. By the way, Barry is a very devout believer in Yeshua. I am going to have a great time in the Messianic Kingdom picking Barry’s brain on these things. The Lord is wonderful!

 

[CoreIssue]

Coward! Call a spade a spade. Let's SEE who's the DEVIL.

I am welcoming my dying day; I have learned the past month the enemy of Jesus Christ with whom I have contended since eve of the millennium, the dispensationalists and Roman Catholics and hosts of antichrist, are preparing their last assault on God's dog NOW. I'm waiting; I beg you, strike your mortal blow. I have and I am finished; I have been fighting in the good fight Paul and all the prophets and apostles fought in - even in the same war and battle as Christ have fought - and I want to go to where once my fellow beggar Lazarus has gone before me, to the bosom of my Father and his heavenly Father, the Father of our Lord and Saviour, where MY LIFE IS HID WITH CHRIST IN GOD. Please God, bury me in your love, I am so tired

The bosom of Abraham, also called paradise, was emptied at Christ's resurrection. All that occupants are in heaven.

If you wish to say God has not periodically changed his means of revelation that is up to you. But I clearly see he has, which is the core meaning of dispensations.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

The bosom of Abraham, also called paradise, was emptied at Christ's resurrection. All that occupants are in heaven.

If you wish to say God has not periodically changed his means of revelation that is up to you. But I clearly see he has, which is the core meaning of dispensations.

While God Himself does not change, that does not preclude His changing the way He deals with one group of people or another, one individual or another. He is totally free to change His mode of revealing His glory and whom He glorifies. We can see from nature that He is a God of variety--that should give us a clue as to at least one part of His nature.

 

[Copperhead]

While God Himself does not change, that does not preclude His changing the way He deals with one group of people or another, one individual or another. He is totally free to change His mode of revealing His glory and whom He glorifies. We can see from nature that He is a God of variety--that should give us a clue as to at least one part of His nature.

And do so while maintaining His promises.

 

[farouk]

While God Himself does not change, that does not preclude His changing the way He deals with one group of people or another, one individual or another. He is totally free to change His mode of revealing His glory and whom He glorifies. We can see from nature that He is a God of variety--that should give us a clue as to at least one part of His nature.

It's all about the unfolding of revelation in Scripture; the two Testaments are not the same, but the truth of God in Christ is gradually unfolded wonderfully.

 

[Keraz]

I see it as all tribes already regathered in the land now

That is impossible, as the Israelis are far from being the people as a single nation in all of the holy Land who will receive the holy Spirit as per Ezekiel 37:20-28, Joel 2:18-32, Romans 9:24-26
We await the forthcoming Day of the Lord's wrath, that will clear and cleanse the Land, ready for the gathering of all the people of God. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Zechariah 8:1-13, +

And also, to fulfill Hosea 5:14-15 / Matthew 23:37-39 there has to a be both houses in view with a common leadership over them. And it might be taking liberties (I don't think so) with the verses that follow, but looking at Hosea 6:1-2 when viewed in light of 2 Peter 3:8 and Psalms 90:4 (meeting the two witnesses requirement of the Torah) it would seem that we are right at the timing period also. If we go from 30AD two thousand years we come to 2030.

I agree with this.
We Christians will choose a leader, when we go to live in all of the holy Land. Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11
The 6000 year period that God has allowed for mankind to rule itself is nearly over. It was divided into 3 2000 year periods: Adam to Abraham- 3970.5 to 1970.5. Then Abraham to Jesus- 1970.5 to 30 AD. Now 30 to +/- 2030

The 2730 years, 390 X 7, of the decreed exile of the House of Israel, is either over or very close to it. Israel was conquered in 722 BC, but it wasn't until Sargon 11 came down again later, that they were all finally removed into exile.

Anyway, we all probably have some aspects to all this wrong to one degree or another. But we can be sure that time is running out. We can know the signs of the final days coming. The fact that so many spend so much time working thru the prophecies about the end times is just another marker that confirms the time is coming upon us. I used to think that I wish I had been born at a different time so I would be assured of not having to see the time start. Now, I would have had it no other way. To see the events of the last 50 years along with the stage being set as we discuss these things, it has indeed been a blessing of the Lord to allow me to see these things fit into place.

Right; I certainly don't say I have it all right.
I look forward with great anticipation to amazing things and the wonderful Promises of God to His people as we live as He always wanted them to be.

 

[Copperhead]

The 2730 years, 390 X 7, of the decreed exile of the House of Israel, is either over or very close to it. Israel was conquered in 722 BC, but it wasn't until Sargon 11 came down again later, that they were all finally removed into exile.

This is one we will have to disagree on. And it comes back to the scripture of 2 Chronicles, Ezra, and Nehemiah that all the tribes were commingled before the Babylonian exile. They were never "lost" or carted off by the Assyrians, and archeological evidence confirms that. The archeological evidence shows that Sargon only carted off about 28,000 and 50 chariots. I posted the reference to that in Biblical Archeology. Even if all the people of the north had been carted off, there was many of all those tribes that had joined with the south. And obviously they all were not carted off from the north, because later in 2 Chronicles.. over 80 years after the Assyrian conquest of the north, a call was issued for all those of the northern tribes to come to Jerusalem. They were not "lost" or carted off.

The 430 years total of Ezekiel 4 is in view. It was a total of Shemitahs (Sabbatical years... a sabbatical year is every 7 years) that both northern and southern kingdoms had failed to observe. They were to be punished one year for every Shemitah they failed to observe. 70 of those 430 years ticked off in Babylon leaving 360 years.

Leviticus 26, several times, says that after being punished by YHVH, if the people still remain in rebellion, their punishment would be multiplied 7 times.

The 360 remaining years x 7 is 2520 years. The scripture uses a Hebrew Lunar calendar that is 360 days. 2520 years x 360 is 907,200 days.

907,200 days converted to the Solar calendar of 365.25 days we use is 2483.8 years.

The decree that allowed the Hebrew people to return was in 537 BC. But only a remnant returned, thereby the majority remained in rebellion because....

Ezekiel 36:20 When they came to the nations, wherever they went, they profaned My holy name—when they said of them, ‘These are the people of the Lord, and yet they have gone out of His land.

By not returning to the land of Canaan, they profaned the Lord. And the majority of Hebrews in the exile did not return.

So... when the decree went out in 537 BC in the late summer / early fall, which would be -536.4 for math purposes. Add 2483.8 years to -536.4 and the result is 1947.4. There is no "0" year between BC and AD, so we must add a year. 1947.4 + 1 is 1948.4, or May of 1948 when Israel became a independent nation again. It had not been an independent nation since the start of the Babylonian exile until 1948.

Now anyone is free to deny this. I am not really concerned if they do. Nothing will change my mind that the modern state of Israel is unique, scriptural, and part of YHVH's plan. And it includes all those of the tribes that were commingled in 2 Chronicles before the exile. The two sticks of both houses are joined. No amount of outside "evidence" will convince me otherwise regarding 2 Chronicles. All the tribes were represented in the southern kingdom before the exile. And all the tribes were represented by the remnant who returned as per Ezra and Nehemiah.

 

[Keraz]

No amount of outside "evidence" will convince me otherwise regarding 2 Chronicles. All the tribes were represented in the southern kingdom before the exile. And all the tribes were represented by the remnant who returned as per Ezra and Nehemiah.

Represented perhaps, but those who joined with Judah became Jews, as does any non Jew.
The 'evidence' I presented was Biblical. You reject Biblical teachings to maintain your false belief of a 'rapture to heaven'.
Has Ezekiel 37 been fulfilled? Just read it and say that honestly, if you can.

 

[Copperhead]

Represented perhaps, but those who joined with Judah became Jews, as does any non Jew.
The 'evidence' I presented was Biblical. You reject Biblical teachings to maintain your false belief of a 'rapture to heaven'.
Has Ezekiel 37 been fulfilled? Just read it and say that honestly, if you can.

Except that Ezra called them Jews 9 times and all Israel 40 times. Nehemiah likewise called them Jews 11 times and all Israel 22 times. So the preponderance of evidence seems to go against your assertion. Jew and Israelite became synonymous terms. Even Paul called himself a Jew and an Israelite.

You have no clue if my belief of a rapture is false because you do not have a lock on the interpretation of scripture. You are just another sheep in the pasture like the rest of us. "rapture" is in the bible, at least a Latin Bible, so it is a valid concept. And both the OT and NT are replete with verses that suggest the righteous are taken / removed and hidden away where the Lord is during that time.

Ezekiel 37 has not been totally fulfilled, of course, because the Davidic Covenant has not been fulfilled yet. But the the house of Israel (Jacob = Israel... all the tribes) has been brought back into the land in unbelief or "dry bones". So yes, I do feel that the 2 sticks part of that chapter has been fulfilled. It is one nation without tribal distinctions. Except the quest to identify the Levites for a rebuilt temple.

 

[Davy]

Ok. That's fine. I see it as all tribes already regathered in the land now.

So you've really come here to promote JUDAISM? That's what someone pushing the idea of today's Israel being the fulfillment of returned tribes in the land is about! Those Orthodox Jews in today's state of Israel are pushing... that very idea!

But in reality, today's Jews are only a very small portion of the total number of the children of Israel. The majority of the children of Israel won't fit in the very small state of Israel today, which has no king and no temple.

 

[Copperhead]

So you've really come here to promote JUDAISM? That's what someone pushing the idea of today's Israel being the fulfillment of returned tribes in the land is about! Those Orthodox Jews in today's state of Israel are pushing... that very idea!

But in reality, today's Jews are only a very small portion of the total number of the children of Israel. The majority of the children of Israel won't fit in the very small state of Israel today, which has no king and no temple.

Nope. I deny Two House theology that is essentially replacement theology with a twist. Or rather, it is Replacement Theology turned on its head.

 

[Keraz]

Except that Ezra called them Jews 9 times and all Israel 40 times. Nehemiah likewise called them Jews 11 times and all Israel 22 times. So the preponderance of evidence seems to go against your assertion. Jew and Israelite became synonymous terms. Even Paul called himself a Jew and an Israelite.

The Old Testament prophets always carefully delineate between the House of Judah, the tribes of Judah and Benjamin and the House of Israel, the ten Northern tribes*.
They separated into these two nations, soon after Solomon’s reign ended. God said that this separation was part of His plan. 1 Kings 12:24

Although some from the Northern tribes did escape the Assyrian exile by coming down and joining with Judah, the main body of Israel were taken away to the Caucasus region. When the Assyrian Kingdom declined and fell, they decided to migrate and find better lands to live in. There is plenty of archaeological evidence of their travels; Jeremiah 31:21 speaks of the cairns or dolmens that they built to mark their way.

Their descendants remain scattered among the nations, now an uncountable number of peoples that have received the blessings promised to them by Jacob, Genesis 49 and by Moses; Deuteronomy 33. In particular, Ephraim, who became the leading tribe of the House of Israel, received the blessing of Jacob, Genesis 48:17-19, of his descendants becoming a group of nations, powerful and prosperous. Only the British Commonwealth fits this description.


That Israel and Judah have not rejoined as yet, is proven by the great chapter of Ezekiel 37:

Firstly, the dry bones represent the whole Israelite people; verse 11 The Lord will put His Spirit into them and they will come alive spiritually, then they will be settled into all of the holy Land. Ezekiel 37:12-14

Then the two sticks, that clearly show how the two Houses are both Israelites, are rejoined as one in God’s hand, to become one nation in the Land; the mountains of Israel. verse 22 This will be the nation of Beulah, as Isaiah 62:1-5 prophesies.

God promises to make a Covenant with them; of peace and prosperity and His Sanctuary [Temple] will be in the midst of them. He says: then they will know that I am their God. This statement is in many of Ezekiel’s prophesies and is proof that they will all happen before Jesus visibly Returns for His Millennial reign.

This Covenant is the one prophesied by Jeremiah 31:31-34 and reiterated in Hebrews 8:10-11 and we await, with great anticipation the time of its implementation.

You have no clue if my belief of a rapture is false because you do not have a lock on the interpretation of scripture. You are just another sheep in the pasture like the rest of us. "rapture" is in the bible, at least a Latin Bible, so it is a valid concept. And both the OT and NT are replete with verses that suggest the righteous are taken / removed and hidden away where the Lord is during that time.

The 'rapture to heaven' of the Church is never stated in the Bible. The 1 Thess 4:17 prophecy is just a transportation to where Jesus is. As confirmed by Matthew 24:30-31
God's holy people are not hidden during the end times. They are in the holy Land, as seen in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7

 

[Copperhead]

Although some from the Northern tribes did escape the Assyrian exile by coming down and joining with Judah, the main body of Israel were taken away to the Caucasus region.

You must provide specific scriptural support of the Caucasus region. You are twiddling with me over "rapture to heaven" and you must be held to the same standard. And it can't be a allegorical take on a verse, it has to be a specific reference or illusion to the Caucasus region.

As for the rapture to heaven thing, the rapture is indeed in the scripture as harpazo in Greek and rapturo in Latin. We will be "caught up", harpazo, to be with the Lord. Isaiah 26 is clearly about the day of the Lord by stating right out of the gate "in that day" in verse 1 with verse 2 talking about opening the gates to let the righteous nation enter. In Hebrew eschatology, that is talking about the gates of Heaven. And many expositors of that text equate it with Yom Teruah, but that is another topic.

And Isaiah 26:19-21, in conjunction with John 14:2-3 seems to be pretty clear on where the righteous will be BEFORE the Lord comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth. Both dead and living righteous as per Paul's comments in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. And David seems to confirm that in Psalms 27:5, I believe referencing the day of trouble that Jeremiah 30:7 is talking about later. David clearly states being hidden in the Tabernacle of the Lord, in his pavilion/tent. That would suggest where the Lord is. And unless the Lord is off on a camping trip, I would be safe to say that means Heaven.

And of course, the coup de grace is 2 Thessalonians 2:3, which in the context of verse 1, "our gathering to the Lord", not our departing from the Lord, the 1599 Geneva Bible got right in saying our "departure" as opposed to our "falling away" before the man of sin / antichrist / man of lawlessness is revealed.

Now, I have used the Torah requirement, affirmed by the Bereans in Acts 17, of using the two witnesses (OT and NT) to make the case. You must also do likewise in making the case that the bulk of the northern tribes were carted off to the Caucasus region and beyond. We all have to play by the same rules.

 

[Keraz]

You must provide specific scriptural support of the Caucasus region. You are twiddling with me over "rapture to heaven" and you must be held to the same standard. And it can't be a allegorical take on a verse, it has to be a specific reference or illusion to the Caucasus region.

The Bible only says the 10 Northern tribes were taken to Assyria.
However we do have writings by those Israelites in captivity;
TOBIT, an Israelite of the tribe of Naphtali
This is part of the deathbed words spoken by Tobit, who was taken into captivity by the Assyrian troops of Shalmaneser. He and his wife, Anna, were taken from the town of Thisbe, in upper Galilee, to Nineveh, the capital of Assyria.

Tobit 14:4 I know that all of Gods words will be fulfilled. It will be so, not one of them will fail. Our countrymen who live in the Land [the Jews] will all be scattered and carried off into captivity out of that good Land [the Babylonian attack] The whole of Israel’s territory with Samaria and Jerusalem will lie waste and for a time the Temple of God will be in mourning, burned and destroyed. .

Tobit 14:5 But God will have mercy on them [the House of Judah] and will bring them back to the Land. They will rebuild the Temple, yet not as it was at first, not until the time of fulfilment comes. Then all Israel will return from their captivity and rebuild Jerusalem in splendour; then indeed Gods House will be built in her as the prophets of Israel foretold.

Tobit 14:7 All the Israelites who are alive at that time and who are firm in their loyalty to God, will be brought together; they will come to Jerusalem to take possession of the Land of Abraham and will live there, securely for ever. Those who love God in sincerity will rejoice, sinners and wrongdoers will disappear from the earth.

Tobit 14:6 All the nations in the whole world will be converted to the true worship of God; they will renounce the idols which led them astray into error, and will praise the Eternal God in righteousness.

Tobit 14:8-9 Now, my children, I give you this command; serve God in truth and do what is pleasing to Him. Teach your children to do what is right and give alms, to be mindful of their Maker and praise Him sincerely.


Tobit died at the age of 112. His son, Tobias, escaped the destruction of Nineveh, by escaping to Ecbatana, in Media. Tobias lived for 117 years.

Verse 4 Tobit prophesies that the House of Judah will also be conquered and dispersed.

Verse 5 Judah returns to the Land under Ezra and Nehemiah. They build the Second Temple.
King Herod rebuilds the Temple circa 50BC, then it is destroyed again, 70AD.
The third Temple is to be built by all Israel after their return.

Verse 7 The descendants of Jacob the faithful Israelites and all who are righteous believers, will enter the Promised Land, to live in peace and prosperity.

Verse 8-9 You, who are the Lord’s people; [faithful Christians] Serve Him, do what pleases Him, instruct your children in the truth, give your time and money, think on Him and praise Him with sincerity.
Reference; Revised English Bible Apocrypha.

Ecbatana was an ancient city in Media in western Iran. Ref Wikipedia
The Western peoples are ethnically Caucasian. The truth is we ARE Israelites.