Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

[Naomi25]

Oh, come on, nothing... by the following type of statement you made (below), you try to plant the idea of Biblical imagery, symbology to suggest the 1,000 years may only be symbolic...

You said:
"Okay...so...given that Revelation is often not chronological, and is often symbolic in its use of imagry, most biblical scholars will tell you that the clear rule of thumb for interpreting less clear passages is to go to passages that are more clear. This is something that most scholars agree on, regardless of which school of thought they come from."

The "less clear passages", with your indirectly pointing to Rev.20, is YOUR OWN theory. Many scholars would debate that suggested idea that the Rev.20 Scripture is not clear. And you only planted that idea so you could try and use Scripture 'outside'... the Rev.20 chapter in attempting to prove your point.

Perhaps you could take a Poll? How many people out there consider the rest of the NT "clearer" in general than Revelation?

But, as far as me "planting an image"...I think that's a shaky accusation. Even if we say that Revelation is crystal clear, we have one spot, Chapter 20, where the 1000 years is mentioned...all within a 7 verse passage. As "biblical proofs" go, to build a doctrine, I'd like a bit more. I'm not saying that one mention alone isn't enough to make something so, because its God's word! But in determining what, how, when...that sort of thing, it's just common sense to seek out as many references within scripture as you can find to this "kingdom". To the time, to the people, to the reason, to the order. By nailing as much as you can down, you can flesh out a much better idea for what scripture is really talking about.
Thus, I added 13 extra NT passages that talked about it. In point of fact I could have added more, especially when considering the fact that the bible only speaks of "this age" and "the age to come", in regards to the time frames we can expect. When seen in conjunction with the "Kingdom in upon you" verses, and the "Christ reigns now" verses and the "all enemies are under his feet" verses and the "I bound him to plunder his house" verses....quite frankly I think any other arguments come off rather weak.
Especially ones that hinge upon pointing fingers at naughty people who look at "other scriptures" to make a point.

 

[n2thelight]

Ooookay. So...this doesn't mean much to you then?

And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, -Hebrews 9:27

So all those people who perished in Sodom and Gomorrah; even though they died because of their sin....died IN their sin...you think when they stand before the throne they will have a chance to walk through into eternal life?

The "Millennium"...even if it is a future, physical reality...will not help those who have already perished.

Who did Christ go and preach to when He died?If their fate was already decided ,why did He go?

 

[Naomi25]

Who did Christ go and preach to when He died?If their fate was already decided ,why did He go?

You're talking about 1 Peter 3:19, right? "in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison"

A couple of things. First...using a single, somewhat obscure verse to try and change how all of SALVATION and JUDGEMENT works, is problematic at best.
Second, if we really consider this single verse, it actually leads us somewhere other than "people who have died unrepentant but now get a second chance". Especially since we have many verses that would contradict that. To begin with, almost without exception in the NT, “spirits” (plural) refers to supernatural beings rather than people (e.g., Matt. 8:16; 10:1; Mark 1:27; 5:13; 6:7; Luke 4:36; 6:18; 7:21; 8:2; 10:20; 11:26; Acts 5:16; 8:7; 19:12, 13; 1 Tim. 4:1; 1 John 4:1; Rev. 16:13–14; cf. Heb. 1:7. Also, the word “prison” is not used elsewhere in Scripture as a place of punishment after death for human beings, while it is used for Satan (Rev. 20:7) and other fallen angels (2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 6). In this case the message that Christ proclaimed is almost certainly one of triumph, after having been “put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit” (1 Pet. 3:18).

 

[Davy]

Again, it's based on sound Biblical exegesis, wherever it's found preached or taught.
Bro, your French Huegenots ancestors were the undisputed "timepiece masters" of the world. The papacy forced them to flee across the Alps from France to Switzerland and they took their trade along with them. That is why Switzerland became the timepiece capital of the world.
The very fact that you are still waiting for antichrist to come tells me you've fallen for the Jesuit deception of Futurism. Don't you find it curious that when the Reformers called out the papacy as Antichrist, the Jesuits published TWO theories, one of which said Antichrist came in the 1st century and the other says the Antichrist is coming in the future? "Look to the past, look to the future...just don't look at us!"

I was not told how... my ancestors got to Germany, but a quick look on a map reveals how, the province of Lorraine is where they were from, and that is right next to the Ardennes forest border with Germany. They didn't cross the Alps to get there.

Futurism is a seminary idea, like Historicism. Those battles belong with the seminary folks. It's their language, not the Bible. So if that's the only language you speak, then I don't have time to converse with you.

Apostle John warned the brethren that even though they had already heard that Antichrist shall come, there were already many antichrists already at work in the world. That simply is the same idea our Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul gave about the "mystery of iniquity", and the many that would come claiming to be Christ. The Reformers because of the Catholic persecution, thought the pope was the Antichrist prophesied to come. He wasn't because Jesus is prophesied to come and destroy the Antichrist figure. That didn't happen in their day, so their idea of the pope being the Antichrist is old hat.

 

[Waiting on him]

You're talking about 1 Peter 3:19, right? "in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison"

A couple of things. First...using a single, somewhat obscure verse to try and change how all of SALVATION and JUDGEMENT works, is problematic at best.
Second, if we really consider this single verse, it actually leads us somewhere other than "people who have died unrepentant but now get a second chance". Especially since we have many verses that would contradict that. To begin with, almost without exception in the NT, “spirits” (plural) refers to supernatural beings rather than people (e.g., Matt. 8:16; 10:1; Mark 1:27; 5:13; 6:7; Luke 4:36; 6:18; 7:21; 8:2; 10:20; 11:26; Acts 5:16; 8:7; 19:12, 13; 1 Tim. 4:1; 1 John 4:1; Rev. 16:13–14; cf. Heb. 1:7. Also, the word “prison” is not used elsewhere in Scripture as a place of punishment after death for human beings, while it is used for Satan (Rev. 20:7) and other fallen angels (2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 6). In this case the message that Christ proclaimed is almost certainly one of triumph, after having been “put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit” (1 Pet. 3:18).

In my opinion the only thing left to happen is the fullness of the gentiles to come in. And then we’ll see the return of Christ in all his Glory, we Christians see it now but then we’ll see it physically.

 

[Dave L]

In my opinion the only thing left to happen is the fullness of the gentiles to come in. And then we’ll see the return of Christ in all his Glory, we Christians see it now but then we’ll see it physically.

The fullness of the gentiles happens on the last day. And in this way all Israel will be saved.

 

[Waiting on him]

The fullness of the gentiles happens on the last day. And in this way all Israel will be saved.

Agreed the last day time will cease to exist

 

[farouk]

In my opinion the only thing left to happen is the fullness of the gentiles to come in. And then we’ll see the return of Christ in all his Glory, we Christians see it now but then we’ll see it physically.

The Rapture of the church first of all...

 

[Enoch111]

The Rapture of the church first of all...

Actually the fulness of the Gentiles within the Church (the complete total number which God has in mind) must precede the Rapture. Once the Church is complete, God summons His children home for the Marriage of the Lamb. At the same time the saints who have passed on will receive glorified bodies and will also be present.

We should note this verse:And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Mt 24:14). While this is happening even as we speak, no one knows how many more Gentiles are to be within the Church. If God were choosing any for salvation, He would be choosing all humanity (since that is His desire). But that is not the way God has designed His plan of salvation. Only those who obey the Gospel shall be saved.

But God begins to deal directly with the believing remnant and unbelieving Jews, as well as Israel, only after the Second Coming of Christ with His saints and angels.

 

[farouk]

Actually the fulness of the Gentiles within the Church (the complete total number which God has in mind) must precede the Rapture. Once the Church is complete, God summons His children home for the Marriage of the Lamb. At the same time the saints who have passed on will receive glorified bodies and will also be present.

We should note this verse:And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Mt 24:14). While this is happening even as we speak, no one knows how many more Gentiles are to be within the Church. If God were choosing any for salvation, He would be choosing all humanity (since that is His desire). But that is not the way God has designed His plan of salvation. Only those who obey the Gospel shall be saved.

But God begins to deal directly with the believing remnant and unbelieving Jews, as well as Israel, only after the Second Coming of Christ with His saints and angels.

I don't know of any Scripture which must be fulfilled before the Lord Jesus returns for His church, 1 Thess. 4. Matthew 24 is not about the church, clearly; the great tribulation it refers to is a unique future event not linked with the church.

 

[Enoch111]

I don't know of any Scripture which must be fulfilled before the Lord Jesus returns for His church...

Evidently you are either not familiar with Romans 11:25, or missed its significance: For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

So this Scripture must be fulfilled before the Rapture.

 

[Waiting on him]

The Rapture of the church first of all...

Brother the way I see it is when the Author steps on to the stage the rapture and fullness of the gentiles will have happened simultaneously.

 

[Naomi25]

In my opinion the only thing left to happen is the fullness of the gentiles to come in. And then we’ll see the return of Christ in all his Glory, we Christians see it now but then we’ll see it physically.

Yes. I think the preaching of the gospel to the ends of the earth is an ongoing thing as well, which would also seem to be intimately tied in with people...Gentiles "coming in" to the Kingdom. There is a definite case of "Already, Not Yet" to it all, where we have in part, receive in part, but yes, most certainly, the physical return and the consumation of all the promises in Christ...and the coming of the "age to come"...is the next event, I believe.

 

[Waiting on him]

Yes. I think the preaching of the gospel to the ends of the earth is an ongoing thing as well, which would also seem to be intimately tied in with people...Gentiles "coming in" to the Kingdom. There is a definite case of "Already, Not Yet" to it all, where we have in part, receive in part, but yes, most certainly, the physical return and the consumation of all the promises in Christ...and the coming of the "age to come"...is the next event, I believe.

Already not yet. I love it

 

[Naomi25]

Already not yet. I love it

I don't lay claim to the phrase...reformed theology is big on it and how it explains so much of the 'promises now'....but...not fulfilled. "Kingdom now"...but...not fulfilled. And those thoughts are truly seen all throughout scripture. Therefore it seems to be an...apt description.

 

[Phoneman777]

I was not told how... my ancestors got to Germany, but a quick look on a map reveals how, the province of Lorraine is where they were from, and that is right next to the Ardennes forest border with Germany. They didn't cross the Alps to get there.

Futurism is a seminary idea, like Historicism. Those battles belong with the seminary folks. It's their language, not the Bible. So if that's the only language you speak, then I don't have time to converse with you.

Apostle John warned the brethren that even though they had already heard that Antichrist shall come, there were already many antichrists already at work in the world. That simply is the same idea our Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul gave about the "mystery of iniquity", and the many that would come claiming to be Christ. The Reformers because of the Catholic persecution, thought the pope was the Antichrist prophesied to come. He wasn't because Jesus is prophesied to come and destroy the Antichrist figure. That didn't happen in their day, so their idea of the pope being the Antichrist is old hat.

I've no doubt some Huegenots escaped to Germany, but a large population crossed the Alps in the dead of winter to escape death from State authorities governed by the papacy. If you look into it, you'll discover that the French Huegenots were formerly the timepiece masters but escaped to Switzerland. There was no doubt in their minds as to what the identity of Antichrist was.

 

[Waiting on him]

I don't lay claim to the phrase...reformed theology is big on it and how it explains so much of the 'promises now'....but...not fulfilled. "Kingdom now"...but...not fulfilled. And those thoughts are truly seen all throughout scripture. Therefore it seems to be an...apt description.

He transcends time. IT IS FINISHED.

 

[Naomi25]

He transcends time. IT IS FINISHED.

Finished, in "completely and totally won and achieved", absolutely! That is why we can say that he reigns now. But as far as fully consumating those promises...well...he has yet to return, doesn't he? He has yet to put the final word to sin and death, even though they are fully defeated things, thrashing vilely in their death throes.
I think that this is yet another reason why I struggle with Dispensationalism and Premillennialism...they leave many things left on Christ's "to do" list before Eternity, or, the Age to Come, can be ushered in...that time and place that Christ has essentially bought...where there are no more tears, or death or pain or suffering or sin. I sometimes think of it (probably poorly) like this: people go to extremes decorating their houses with Christmas lights, but when their done, all that's left to do is flick that switch a boom! The way I see scripture reading, that's all that's left...Christ's return...he's won everything, set everything up, and only needs to return, like the flicking of that switch. Dispensationalists and Premillennialists, however, have a great big long list of things that MUST happen before this wonderful new age can happen and all these things we were told Christ died to bring us will come to pass. So, in my analogy, these people are saying that the Christmas lights still have to be set up before the switch can be flicked. Sure, they might have been bought, but they're still just sitting in boxes. And it's strange to me, because I see scripture saying that all conditions were essentially met ON the cross and AT Christ's resurrection. The delay...the "not yet" part of history is just because of God's mercy so many more people can be saved. But apart from that...the lights are set up and ready for that switch to be flicked.

 

[Davy]

Those that used to be just left of center have shifted all the way over to the far left and now align with Communism, fascism, Marxism, etc., while trying to convince us all that those who are just right of center are "far right extremists" when they haven't budged at all.

Pretty much the way it is, except... many that used to be right of center have also shifted left of center.

 

[Davy]

If you're waiting for a future Antichrist man that will come and sit down in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem and broker a 7 year piece treaty between the Arabs and Jews, which after 3 1/2 years he will break that treaty and usher in Armageddon, etc. etc. etc., you're a dyed in the wool Jesuit Futurist. Do you have a different view than that which I listed above?

I don't believe in seminary ideas like Futurism. God's Word declares the coming Antichrist to Jerusalem, and God ain't no Jesuit.