Reason for The Crusades explained

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
20,731
8,987
113
57
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Please give me one scripture that explains we should engage in war against our brothers and sisters that live in another Nation?
And then you will be an apologist for Christians warring, including the Battle of Tours 732 and the Crusades? LOL This question reveals you have not read or understood Scripture at all. Ever read my signature?
  1. He trains my hands for war. 2 Samuel 22:35
    • Do you suppose this training has no practical application? That God trains us to do a thing only for us NOT to do that thing?
  2. Ex 5:3 Yahweh is a man of war; Yahweh is his name.
  3. We are made in Gods image. Ge 1:27
    • Just who do you suppose we - being made in God' image, a man of war - should war against, if not our brothers and sisters that live in another Nation?
  4. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey. 1 Samuel 15:3
    • I look forward to the over-spiritualized engaging in mental gymnastics and rationalizations on this one.
  5. Conquest of Canaan. Joshua 1:1-6
  6. And the LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’ “One suggested this, and another that. 1 Kings 22:20
Many do not grasp why Jesus is NOT called the king of peace. A prince is in the waiting, his power yet to be In full effect. Christ's ministry is to show us a better way that is yet to come, which explains why he said the Kingdom of God is near, i.e., not here yet. And also why his 2nd Coming will began by Jesus waging war and defeating his enemies. In the meantime, we war. Pay attention his story, history, our story is the story of war.
 

walter

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2024
362
262
63
67
Arizona
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And then you will be an apologist for Christians warring, including the Battle of Tours 732 and the Crusades? LOL This question reveals you have not read or understood Scripture at all. Ever read my signature?
  1. He trains my hands for war. 2 Samuel 22:35
    • Do you suppose this training has no practical application? That God trains us to do a thing only for us NOT to do that thing?
  2. Ex 5:3 Yahweh is a man of war; Yahweh is his name.
  3. We are made in Gods image. Ge 1:27
    • Just who do you suppose we - being made in God' image, a man of war - should war against, if not our brothers and sisters that live in another Nation?
  4. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey. 1 Samuel 15:3
    • I look forward to the over-spiritualized engaging in mental gymnastics and rationalizations on this one.
  5. Conquest of Canaan. Joshua 1:1-6
  6. And the LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’ “One suggested this, and another that. 1 Kings 22:20
Many do not grasp why Jesus is NOT called the king of peace. A prince is in the waiting, his power yet to be In full effect. Christ's ministry is to show us a better way that is yet to come, which explains why he said the Kingdom of God is near, i.e., not here yet. And also why his 2nd Coming will began by Jesus waging war and defeating his enemies. In the meantime, we war. Pay attention his story, history, our story is the story of war.
Over 200 times the Old Testament refers to war, Jesus and the Apostles referred to a spiritual war, but they have never given one instruction to engage in a physical war. Is it wrong of me to follow Jesus overwhelming instructions for peace?

AI Overview

It is not wrong to follow Jesus' instructions for peace; in fact, seeking peace aligns closely with the teachings presented throughout the New Testament. The Bible, particularly the New Testament, consistently emphasizes themes of peacemaking, love for enemies, and spiritual rather than physical conflict [1].

Key instructions and examples from Jesus and the Apostles supporting this approach include:
  • The Sermon on the Mount: In the book of Matthew, Jesus calls certain people blessed for seeking peace, stating, "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God" (Matthew 5:9) [1]. He also instructs followers to "turn to them the other cheek" when struck (Matthew 5:39) and to "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" (Matthew 5:44) [1].
  • The Nature of the Kingdom: Jesus clarified that his kingdom "is not of this world," which means his followers are not instructed to fight physically to defend it (John 18:36) [1].
  • Spiritual Warfare: Apostles like Paul instructed believers to focus on spiritual battles against evil forces rather than physical battles against people, using spiritual armor such as "the belt of truth," "the breastplate of righteousness," and "the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God" (Ephesians 6:10-18) [1].
  • Rejecting Violence: When Jesus was arrested, he told Peter to put his sword away, stating, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword" (Matthew 26:52) [1].
These instructions, alongside the overall narrative of the New Testament, provide a strong foundation for a commitment to non-violence and peacemaking, making it a valid and widely practiced Christian perspective.
 

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
32,115
24,070
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Please give me one scripture that explains we should engage in war against our brothers and sisters that live in another Nation?

As I was thinking about your question, Matthew 25:40 came to mind.

”Then the king will answer them, ‘I‘m telling you the truth: when you did it to one of the least significant of my brothers and sisters here, you did it to me’” (NTFE).

The general principle is what I’m looking at in the passage: Something done to a follower of Jesus is considered something done to Jesus.

The context here is positive, a good thing is done to his followers. But what happens if we apply the general principle in a negative context, and a bad thing is done to his followers? If the good thing done to his followers is considered a good thing done to Jesus, wouldn’t a bad thing done to one of his followers be considered a bad thing done to Jesus?

Brothers and sisters of Jesus in one nation going to war against their fellow brothers and sisters of Jesus in another nation would result in them inflicting all of the cruelties of war on one another. Who would say that is a good thing? Isn’t it obviously a bad thing?

If (since?) it is a bad thing that is done to them, then it is a bad thing that is done to Jesus.

Followers of Jesus doing a bad thing to Jesus - think again for a moment of all of the bad things that are associated with war, then picture his followers doing that to Jesus - should be a horrifying thought to his followers, and something they should not be desiring to do. It should be something which his followers would refuse to do.
 
  • Like
Reactions: walter

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
32,115
24,070
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Enemies of Jesus waging war on Jesus and his followers, his brothers and sisters, isn’t a difficult concept to imagine.

The concept of brothers and sisters of Jesus - “I have called you friends“ (John 15:15) - waging war on Jesus and his brothers and sisters: easy to imagine or difficult to imagine? Easy to promote or difficult to promote?
 

walter

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2024
362
262
63
67
Arizona
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Have you studied any of the early writings from the early Church Fathers of the first and second century?

What do they say about war and enemies? What does Justin Martyr say?
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Many times in the Old Testament God gave instructions for war and assembled an Army of Men, how big was the Army that Jesus assembled?
 
Last edited:

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
32,115
24,070
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Have you studied any of the early writings from the early Church Fathers of the first and second century?

Yes.

What do they say about war and enemies?

Someone quoted a few of them early in the thread. (See post #6.)

What does Justin Martyr say?

Someone quoted him specifically early in the thread. (See again post #6.)

They stand as early witnesses against the “you are not a follower of Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill” teaching, but that hasn’t persuaded the one who is teaching it.

***

We are being asked to believe that Jesus commanded all of his followers to purchase swords and be willing to use them to kill their enemies, with at least the inference that all of his genuine followers then did, while he was still with them, and have done so ever since. It simply isn’t true.
 

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
32,115
24,070
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Gender
Male
We are being asked to believe that Jesus commanded all of his followers to purchase swords and be willing to use them to kill their enemies, with at least the inference that all of his genuine followers then did, while he was still with them, and have done so ever since. It simply isn’t true.

What is the estimated global population of Christians today? A commonly accepted ballpark figure is 2.4 billion. Let’s work with that.

“Christian” has been grotesquely defined as an “armed, ready to kill” follower of Jesus.

* Please pause a moment to think about that before proceeding. *

Are there 2.4 billion Christians around the globe who are ”armed, ready to kill”? No.

Are there 2.4 billion Christians around the globe who are even armed? No.

Out of whatever percentage of the 2.4 billion Christians around the globe who are armed - does anyone have an estimate for how many that would be? - how many are armed only for the purpose of hunting animals and / or skeet shooting?

How many Christians have said in this thread alone that they aren’t armed? Have any of them gone out and purchased a weapon, for any use, in response to reading ”you are not a follower of Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill”? For those who haven’t, why haven’t they?
 

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
20,731
8,987
113
57
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
they have never given one instruction to engage in a physical war.
1st, that is false, as I have repeatedly demonstrated. 2nd, you moved the goal posts. Asking for one verse in Scripture, I showed you many, which you promptly ignore. Then you follow up with a narrower, Strawman question designed to get the desired outcome.

3rd, Nor do NT writers have to give instruction to wage war. Your taking the times out of context. You cannot compare as equal being a persecuted minority with a majority and State sponsored religion.

4th, From another thread, the same answer is applicable.

This reveals an enslaved mindset. Nowhere are we told to use the internet, but here we are. And more to the point, here YOU are. :oops:

Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. Freedom is being able to do anything that is not prohibited; freedom is NOT only doing what you are told to do.
 
Last edited:

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
32,115
24,070
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Gender
Male
As I was thinking about your question, Matthew 25:40 came to mind.

”Then the king will answer them, ‘I‘m telling you the truth: when you did it to one of the least significant of my brothers and sisters here, you did it to me’” (NTFE).

The general principle is what I’m looking at in the passage: Something done to a follower of Jesus is considered something done to Jesus.

The context here is positive, a good thing is done to his followers. But what happens if we apply the general principle in a negative context, and a bad thing is done to his followers? If the good thing done to his followers is considered a good thing done to Jesus, wouldn’t a bad thing done to one of his followers be considered a bad thing done to Jesus?

Brothers and sisters of Jesus in one nation going to war against their fellow brothers and sisters of Jesus in another nation would result in them inflicting all of the cruelties of war on one another. Who would say that is a good thing? Isn’t it obviously a bad thing?

If (since?) it is a bad thing that is done to them, then it is a bad thing that is done to Jesus.

Followers of Jesus doing a bad thing to Jesus - think again for a moment of all of the bad things that are associated with war, then picture his followers doing that to Jesus - should be a horrifying thought to his followers, and something they should not be desiring to do. It should be something which his followers would refuse to do.

@JustMe do you think it is honorable for brothers and sisters of Messiah in one nation to wage war on brothers and sisters of Messiah in another nation?
 

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
32,115
24,070
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Gender
Male
1766332803722.jpeg

Would those who approve of launching this against their brothers and sisters in Messiah in another nation at least read and remember the message before and after the deed is done?
 

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
32,115
24,070
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Gender
Male
1766334032334.jpeg

It has been conceded that the Crusaders were not bringing the gospel of peace.
 

JustMe

Well-Known Member
May 6, 2025
1,172
1,333
113
US
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
@JustMe do you think it is honorable for brothers and sisters of Messiah in one nation to wage war on brothers and sisters of Messiah in another nation?
YOU said " But what happens if we apply the general principle in a negative context, and a bad thing is done to his followers? If the good thing done to his followers is considered a good thing done to Jesus, wouldn’t a bad thing done to one of his followers be considered a bad thing done to Jesus?"

Truthfully Mat, I can answer this more easily on a personal level, at home in my own backyard. than on the national and impersonal level. And that answer on a personal level surely would agree with your statement I pulled up, concerning doing things for others either in a positive kind light and in the opposite bad way, is most certainly a reflection upon doing it to Yeshua, himself.

One factor I would be concerned with, and this is not taken lightly, if this person you are doing it to, is a follower of Christ or not. It can make a difference. How can we quickly tell if one is a follower of Christ on short notice, for example. I truly depend on my lord's spirit to guide me through in this matter. I cannot afford to overstep and take justice into my own hands like of the mindless mob.

And another factor is, the severity or grade of 'badness' done to someone: lying, gossiping, stealing, hurting, killing etc.

I will have to consider with more care and time, your query on a national and international level.
 

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
32,115
24,070
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Gender
Male
YOU said " But what happens if we apply the general principle in a negative context, and a bad thing is done to his followers? If the good thing done to his followers is considered a good thing done to Jesus, wouldn’t a bad thing done to one of his followers be considered a bad thing done to Jesus?"

Truthfully Mat, I can answer this more easily on a personal level, at home in my own backyard. than on the national and impersonal level. And that answer on a personal level surely would agree with your statement I pulled up, concerning doing things for others either in a positive kind light and in the opposite bad way, is most certainly a reflection upon doing it to Yeshua, himself.

Thanks. I think the argument I‘m trying to make with this approach is sound. I value your opinion of it.

***

If any of my readers think the argument I’m trying to make using the general principle is flawed, I would like to hear from them.

One factor I would be concerned with, and this is not taken lightly, if this person you are doing it to, is a follower of Christ or not. It can make a difference. How can we quickly tell if one is a follower of Christ on short notice, for example. I truly depend on my lord's spirit to guide me through in this matter. I cannot afford to overstep and take justice into my own hands like of the mindless mob.

And another factor is, the severity or grade of 'badness' done to someone: lying, gossiping, stealing, hurting, killing etc.

If I’m following you correctly, you’re speaking about on a personal level.

I will have to consider with more care and time, your query on a national and international level.

Thank you. That’s all I can ask anyone to do.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JustMe

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
32,115
24,070
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Gender
Male
1766337773575.png

Powerful imagery. The dove with an olive branch represents the Messiah’s peace, but does it in this case?
 

Big Boy Johnson

Well-Known Member
Sep 28, 2023
6,328
2,311
113
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
the Crusades are part of church history

Actually the crusades are NOT a part of church history because it wasn't the Body of Christ out there murdering people.

No, it was followers of the devil doing the crusades and they only claimed to know the Lord Jesus.

The crusaders were following a fake "jesus" which is the devil.



I use AI sometimes, but that is definitely not my first choice!


Yeah and some smoke weed sometime too but it's not their first choice.


And could you highlight the words from Jesus that explain your Viewpoint?

Re-read my previous post and understand that the New Testament writers wrote what they said under the leading of the Holy Spirit Who got what was said directly from Jesus
 

walter

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2024
362
262
63
67
Arizona
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
which you promptly ignore. Then you follow up with a narrower, Strawman question designed to get the desired outcome.
I don't want to ignore the words in any scripture, could you please highlight the words in the "New Testament" that support fighting in any Crusade.

Who is the first person or persons to fight in any Crusades, what date?

You have found scriptures in the New Testament to support your belief about swords, shouldn't I get the same respect I give for you?

I respect you for what you believe :hearteyes: , could you respect me for what I believe? :hearteyes: :ntmetu

Aren't there enough words by Jesus to show love to my brothers and sisters, neighbors and love to my enemies in other countries?