Reason for The Crusades explained

[Matthias]

Justice is good - and commanded we do by God. Micah 6:8.

Yes.

Given centuries of Islamic Jihad against Christian Europe were our brothers and sisters …

Their creeds anathematize both of us.

… were slaughtered, raped, enslaved …

They in turn did to their enemies what their enemies had done to them.

…what does justice look like in your pacifist eyes?

What does retuning evil for evil look like in your eyes? Justice.

 

[Matthias]

And here is where we must refute these arguments. Just because an argument is frequent doesn't make it valid. Christian apologists need to embrace the soulful needs of God's children, period. Not shy away from it. Again I ask, given centuries of Islamic Jihad against Christian Europe were our brothers and sisters were slaughtered, raped, enslaved and conquered, what does justice look like?

Hint: Justice is not one side getting away with a million atrocities and the other side commits one but is condemned for eternity for it.

Neither side will get away with the evil they did.

 

[Wrangler]

God is able to protect and defend his people without them killing their enemies.

In theory, possibly. In practice God also protects and defend his people by killing their enemies - and he's had this done MANY times. This is why you ignore verses like 1 Samuel 15:3 put to death men and women, children and infants

 

[Wrangler]

What does retuning evil for evil look like in your eyes? Justice.

There's where you are wrong; justice is not evil. This shows your utter lack of balance.

 

[Matthias]

In theory, possibly.

In practice. “Be still and know that I am God.”

In practice God also protects and defend his people by killing their enemies - and he's had this done MANY times. This is why you ignore verses like 1 Samuel 15:3 put to death men and women, children and infants

I don’t ignore it. How many people have you done this to?

 

[Matthias]

There's where you are wrong; justice is not evil. This shows your utter lack of balance.

Raping and murdering your enemy (to name just a few of the evils) isn’t justice; it’s returning evil for evil. (Something which Jesus and the apostles instruct the followers of Jesus not to do.)

The point is that it is not justice. You are arguing that it is.

 

[Matthias]

When people see followers of Jesus, they should see Jesus in them.

Consider again the atrocities committed by the Muslims. Do the Muslims look like Jesus?

Consider again the atrocities committed by the crusaders. Do the crusaders look like Jesus?

Jesus is raping (to focus on one particular crusader activity) Muslim, Jewish and Christian women?

Jesus isn’t evil and raping women isn’t doing justice.

 

[Matthias]

Their creeds anathematize both of us.

The crusaders would have killed @Wrangler (and me) for not affirming their trinitarian creeds, and he calls what they did “doing justice”.

 

[Wrangler]

No, the Crusades do not evoke any sense of glorious 'Christian' times for me when they are discussed. Both the Europeans and the Middle Eastern fighters or combatants exposed the profound depths of human depravity and how far humanity has declined.

The Crusades should invoke the sense of glorious Christian times when men were men and defended their keep. Regarding the depths of human depravity, you should feel profound pride that with Christians, this is the exception. With the Jihadi's, this remains the rule to this very day.

And those calling themselves Christian of these evil groups, are not truly Christian in spirit, only in name and empty claims.

The opposite is true. Those calling themselves Christian of these evil groups WHO REFUSE TO DO THE NEEDFUL ACTS FOR JUSTICE HERE AND NOW, are not truly Christian in spirit, only in name for they are over-spiritualized.

 

[Wrangler]

When people see followers of Jesus, they should see Jesus in them.

Jesus, the man who will return to slaughter his enemies at the first?

 

[Matthias]

Jesus, the man who will return to slaughter his enemies at the first?

Yes.

 

[Wrangler]

To say or suggest that those who don’t support your ”You are not a follower of Jesus unless you’re armed, ready to kill“ false teaching fail to recognize, acknowledge and appreciate these benefits is just another attempt by you to belittle conscientious objectors.

Yea, no need to even pay lip service to the soulful needs! That's how over-spiritualized you are.

It reminds me of a joke by George Carlin, the overly-spiritualized image of God is this all-powerful invisible man in the sky AND for some reason, he (aka the over-spiritualized Church) always needs money.

 

[Matthias]

Yea, no need to even pay lip service to the soulful needs! That's how over-spiritualized you are.

It reminds me of a joke by George Carlin, the overly-spiritualized image of God is this all-powerful invisible man in the sky AND for some reason, he (aka the over-spiritualized Church) always needs money.

You’re defending the Catholic Church.

 

[Wrangler]

Neither side will get away with the evil they did.

That's great in theory. But in practice, in the world, that is not the case as your obsession with this thread shows, forever condemning the side that acted to restore justice and save Christian lives.

 

[Wrangler]

The crusaders would have killed @Wrangler (and me) for not affirming their trinitarian creeds, and he calls what they did “doing justice”.

You keep attempting to make exceptions the rule. I asked you what justice would look like and you provided no answer. Typical.

 

[Wrangler]

Yes.

We are agreed. The Crusaders reflect Jesus, the man who will return to slaughter his enemies at the first.

 

[Matthias]

That's great in theory.

It isn’t theory; it’s sripture.

But in practice, in the world, …

You are worldly. Genuine followers of Jesus suffer injustice in the world. We don’t do to the world what the world does to us and call it doing justice.

… that is not the case as your obsession with this thread shows, forever condemning the side that acted to restore justice and save Christian lives.

The Catholic Church destroyed / destroys lives - Muslim lives, Jewish lives, Christian lives. That’s not justice.

 

[Wrangler]

It isn’t theory; it’s sripture.

Your taking Scripture out of practical context of today - and disregarding Scripture that does talk about today.

I'm talking about justice HERE AND NOW by human hands and I'm sure you know that. Scripture commands US to do justice. Being overly-spiritualized, you keep pretending it is not our job in any way.
1 Corinthians 6:3
Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

 

[Matthias]

You keep attempting to make exceptions the rule.

You’re supporting and endorsing what the Catholic Church did to protect it’s interests.

I asked you what justice would look like and you provided no answer.

I provided an answer. Justice doesn’t look like treating enemies as enemies treat me. Justice looks like obeying the teaching of Jesus and the apostles.

 

[Matthias]

We are agreed. The Crusaders reflect Jesus, the man who will return to slaughter his enemies at the first.

We are not agreed. The crusaders reflected the Catholic Church, not Jesus.