Reason for The Crusades explained

[amigo de christo]

I thought about your words during the night and I’ve returned to them again this morning.

Whatever else they are or might be, they‘ve allowed the spirit of Islam to harden their hearts.

Setting aside for a moment that they haven’t actually killed even a single Muslim between them - even if they managed to kill every Muslim man, woman and child in the world, @Wrangler @Armour of God @NayborBear have been spiritually overcome and defeated by Islam.

And of course they aren’t the only ones who have been.

That be the problem my friend . They have been overcome already and know it not .
To trod the words of Christ under foot will only lead to their own demise .
Paul , james , john , steven , peter and others
DID NOT LIVE by the SWORD of man but rather by THE TWO EDGED SWORD of THE WORD OF THE LORD .
The WORD by which ALL shall be judged on the last day .
And HE never once said go ye into all the world and DESTROY the infidel .
HE said to preach The gospel to all .
Even warning them that he who lives by the sword will perish by The Sword .
HE even said to pray for those who persecute you .
To love even your enemies . NEVER TO CONFORM to their ways .
But to pray for . NOW HERE is HIS request to all those who do reject HIM , HIS GOSPEL .
YOU SHAKE THE DUST OFF YOUR FEET against them and MOVE ON , it will be far worse for them
ON the day of judgement . HE IS THE JUDGE and HE IS THE Executioner against all who rejected HIM .
MAN IS NOT THE JUDGE NOR the ExEcUTIONER . the crusades were of wicked men .

 

[amigo de christo]

Command this stone by turned into bread .
IT is written that man shall not live by bread alone but by EVERY WORD of GOD .
Yet many live by the words of men and their doctrines , and beleive me when i say
their doctrines do and will twist and omit words of GOD and of CHRIST .
Easy is the solution . SIMPLE is the solution .
IF any desires to see whether what man says be true , be of GOD
THEN OPEN BIBLE and LEARN BIBLE for yourself . YOU SEE who ye follow . IS IT MEN , OR GOD
is it antother jesus or IS IT JESUS . MY WORDS SHALL BE YOUR JUDGE on the last day .
NOtice its HIS WORDS .
HE did not say , the words of your scholars , their greek , their hermes , their doctrines
will be YOUR JUDGE . NO , didnt hear that .
HE SAID MY WORDS shall be your judge .

 

[Matthias]

Fully?.......Or, obeying that which you "CHOOSE" to "hear or read?"

You know I treat my enemies in accordance with the teaching and example of Jesus and the apostles.

“We do not use the weapons of the world.”

 

[NayborBear]

You know I treat my enemies in accordance with the teaching and example of Jesus and the apostles.

“We do not use the weapons of the world.”

Does this mean YOU would go into a church that "sells, or wants donations" for something trivial......like say "coffee", or, tee-shirts, and make yourself up a cat of nine tails, and go abouts ridding the facility of them and knock over the coffee machines and overturn tables they were selling merch from with a cat of nine tails?
And?
Would YOU consider this "Application of Justice, or Wrath" similar to "Crusading?"
Or?
Just how or what WOULD you consider these "acts of Barbarism, or WARMONGERING?"
Keep in mind now! The Disciples and Apostles NEVER did such things! Did they?
First century Christians never did such things EITHER! Did they?
Perhaps these things never happened?
Never recorded anyway!
(therefore?)
NEVER EXISTED!
RIGHT?

 

[Justified]

Oh come on buddy! You can do better than that. You're theory is that for no reason they just decided to do this.

Please provide the exact quote and post where I stated that theory.

And that you continue with being a but monkey, turning your attention to castigating your fellow brother's in Christ.

Whether they are fellow brother's in Christ remains to be seen, as they are following a Christ I do not recognize from Scripture.

Is there a reason why you continue to ignore all the NT passages I, and others, have posted that clearly show how believers are to treat others, even their enemies?

 

[Wrangler]

Please provide the exact quote and post where I stated that theory.

I already did. BTW, you do this a lot. You ask me to show you something I just did.

Whether they are fellow brother's in Christ remains to be seen, as they are following a Christ I do not recognize from Scripture.

They also would not recognize such over-spiritualized Christians from Scripture.

Is there a reason why you continue to ignore all the NT passages I, and others, have posted that clearly show how believers are to treat others, even their enemies?

Yes, and I've stated the reason many, MANY times. I admit there are spiritual verses, the overly spiritualized deny the soulful verses. Buy a sword. Jesus wanted us to have dust collectors? If not, what other purpose might one plausibly advice, neigh command, one to arm themselves?

 

[Matthias]

Does this mean YOU would go into a church that "sells, or wants donations" for something trivial......like say "coffee", or, tee-shirts, and make yourself up a cat of nine tails, and go abouts ridding the facility of them and knock over the coffee machines and overturn tables they were selling merch from with a cat of nine tails?
And?
Would YOU consider this "Application of Justice, or Wrath" similar to "Crusading?"
Or?
Just how or what WOULD you consider these "acts of Barbarism, or WARMONGERING?"
Keep in mind now! The Disciples and Apostles NEVER did such things! Did they?
First century Christians never did such things EITHER! Did they?
Perhaps these things never happened?
Never recorded anyway!
(therefore?)
NEVER EXISTED!
RIGHT?

What does any of that have to do with Jesus, the apostles, the earliest Christians, millions of Christians down through the centuries, and I not killing our enemies and you saying Christians should kill their enemies but you haven’t?

 

[Justified]

I already did. BTW, you do this a lot. You ask me to show you something I just did.

But, you don't, that's why I ask. What I said, and what you quoted, was: 'Initially it was to take back the “Holy Land”.'

Your response was: "You're [sic] theory is that for no reason they just decided to do this."

My "theory" was 'to take back the "Holy Land".' That is absolutely not "for no reason they just decided to do this."

They also would not recognize such over-spiritualized Christians from Scripture.

You think that posting very plain, clear texts from the Bible is because I'm "over-spiritualized"? Again, these texts are very plain and clear in what they state regarding what God expects of Christians:

Mat 5:10 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11 “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.
Mat 5:12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
…
Mat 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Mat 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Luk 6:31 And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.
Luk 6:32 “If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.
Luk 6:33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.
Luk 6:34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount.
Luk 6:35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.
Luk 6:36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.

Rom 12:14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them.
...
Rom 12:17 Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all.
...
Rom 12:18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.
Rom 12:19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
Rom 12:20 To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.”
Rom 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

1Co 4:12 and we labor, working with our own hands. When reviled, we bless; when persecuted, we endure;
1Co 4:13 when slandered, we entreat. We have become, and are still, like the scum of the world, the refuse of all things.

2Co 12:10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

2Th 1:4 Therefore we ourselves boast about you in the churches of God for your steadfastness and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions that you are enduring.

2Ti 3:11 my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra—which persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me.

1Pe 3:9 Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing.

Very importantly, we should consider Jesus's example:

Joh 15:20 Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.

Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”

Act 8:32 Now the passage of the Scripture that he was reading was this: “Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter and like a lamb before its shearer is silent, so he opens not his mouth.

There is absolutely no spiritualizing of the texts on my part. The Bible doesn't get any clearer; these are incredibly simple passages to understand. And, again, it's worth pointing out that, following Christ's example, in the whole of the NT there is no example of believers ever fighting back, despite being persecuted by Jewish and Roman authorities.

Yes, and I've stated the reason many, MANY times. I admit there are spiritual verses, the overly spiritualized deny the soulful verses.

Please, stop using language such as "spiritual verses" and "soulful verses," that only serve to confuse the issue. You're just wanting to avoid addressing passages that clearly prove your love of violence and fear and hatred of those different from you is wicked and ungodly.

Buy a sword. Jesus wanted us to have dust collectors? If not, what other purpose might one plausibly advice, neigh command, one to arm themselves?

And yet, for twelve of them and Jesus, two swords were "enough" (Luke 22:38). Swords are also for defence, are they not? Was there a command issued by Jesus to go and kill unbelievers? Clearly not.

You also ignore that Jesus also said, "Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword" (Mat 26:52, ESV).

And:

Luk 22:49 And when those who were around him saw what would follow, they said, “Lord, shall we strike with the sword?”
Luk 22:50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest and cut off his right ear.
Luk 22:51 But Jesus said, “No more of this!” And he touched his ear and healed him. (ESV)

That goes right in line with:

Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” (ESV)

You have utterly failed to see that we are not fight for his kingdom, that is not how it spreads. It spreads through the gospel--through its preaching and its outworking in the lives of his followers, such as in loving one's enemies rather than killing them.

 

[Anchorite]

 

[Wrangler]

But, you don't, that's why I ask.

I do but I paraphrase, which seems to lose you every time, which is why you come back with “quote the post where I said those exact words.”

 

[Matthias]

Read Romans 13 again and remember when you do that the apostle who wrote it also wrote, “We [Christians] do not use the weapons of the world.”

“Even though Romans 13 has been taken to empower Christians to kill their enemy, or praise the government, or vindicate the just war tradition, there is nothing in this passage that commands Christians to use their guns to confront evil. Nothing. Here’s why.

First. Paul’s statement reflects a widespread truth in the Old Testament about God working through secular nations to carry out His will. For instance, the Old Testament calls many political figures ‘God’s servant,’ such as Cyrus, king of Persia (Isa. 44-45); Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon (Jer. 27:6; 43:10); and the ruthlessly wicked nation of Assyria (Isa. 10:5), which God calls ‘the club of my wrath’ and the ‘rod of my anger.’ Please note Chrus and Nebuchadnezzar were pagan dictators.

The phrase ‘God’s servant,’ therefore, doesn’t refer to Rome’s sanctified service to Israel’s God, but to God’s sovereign ability to use Rome as an instrument in His hands.

You can probably see where I’m going with this. Just because God uses secular - and sometimes quite evil - institutions to carry out His will does not mean that God approves of everything they do. Much of what they do - whether it be Assyria‘s sadistic practice of skinning civilians alive, or Rome’s crucifixion of thousands of people in the first century - does not reflect the law of Christ. But God can still use such godlessness, because He channels evil to carry out His will.

The so-called government’s ‘right to bear the sword’ is not a moral ‘right’ at all, any more than Assyria had the ‘right’ to slaughter the Israelites in 722 B.C. Assyria and Rome (and America, and North Korea, etc.) are objects under God’s sovereign control. That’s all Romans 13 says. This doesn’t mean that God approves of the evil itself. In fact, all those who are ministers of God’s wrath became the objects of God’s wrath themselves precisely because of their violence when the ‘rod’ of His anger (read Isa and the book of Revelation). …”

(Preston Sprinkle, “Romans 13 Doesn’t Tell Christians To Kill Their Enemy”)

Romans 13 Doesn’t Tell Christians To Kill Their Enemy

It’s fascinating (one might say disturbing) to see how each person’s political context shapes his or her understanding of Romans 13. Christians living in

www.patheos.com

@Wrangler @Armour of God @NayborBear

Read this with, “We do not use the weapons of the world” in mind. It should be obvious to you that Paul is speaking about the followers of Jesus with those words, not the secular government. (Otherwise, Paul is contradicting himself.)

 

[Wrangler]

My "theory" was 'to take back the "Holy Land".' That is absolutely not "for no reason they just decided to do this."

Sure it is. Don’t blame me for your inability to communicate fully and effectively. The question is the reasons FOR, not summarize a goal during.

 

[Wrangler]

You think that posting very plain, clear texts from the Bible is because I'm "over-spiritualized"? Again, these texts are very plain and clear

And irrelevant to the topic under discussion.

 

[Wrangler]

Please, stop using language such as "spiritual verses" and "soulful verses," that only serve to confuse the issue.

No. You are confusing things that are separate, different combining them as if they’re the same thing. For instance, can you admit that Jesus did not cook spiritual fish for his friends on the sea of Galilea; but actual, carnal, fleshy, worldly, physical fish?

 

[Wrangler]

Buy a sword. Jesus wanted us to have dust collectors? If not, what other purpose might one plausibly advice, neigh command, one to arm themselves?

And yet, for twelve of them and Jesus, two swords were "enough" (Luke 22:38). Swords are also for defence, are they not?

Non-responsive reply. Your unwillingness to answer questions, engage in an actual back and forth discussion is telling. I’ll leave it there.

 

[Anchorite]

Since @Wrangler has a short memory, I will explain again why Jesus said to buy a sword, then said only two was enough.


Jesus said buy a sword, and the disciples replied they had two swords, and Jesus said that was enough.

Thus, the swords were not for self defense or for killing those who attack. Two swords would not be nearly enough to combat the Roman soldiers who were coming to arrest Jesus. In fact, when Peter used his sword to cut off someone’s ear, Jesus healed the ear and scolded Peter to put away his sword.

Jesus condemned weaponry by saying that all who use the sword will perish by the sword.

Those two swords were enough for Jesus to be reckoned among the transgressors.

"Jesus reckoned among the transgressors" refers to the fulfillment of prophecy (Isaiah 53:12) where Jesus was treated, condemned, and executed as a common criminal, specifically by being crucified between two thieves. This act represents his deep identification with sinful humanity, substituting himself in the place of sinners to achieve atonement and reconciliation with God.


Luke 22


36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.



Matthew 26:52



Then said Jesus unto him, “Put up again thy sword into his place, for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.”


John 18:36

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

 

[Wrangler]

Since @Wrangler has a short memory, I will explain again why Jesus said to buy a sword, and then said only two was enough.


Jesus said buy a sword

The casual reader will observe re-iterating that Jesus said to buy a sword does not answer the question of why; what other purpose might one plausibly advice, neigh command, one to arm themselves?

 

[Matthias]

Following up on post #2291, Sprinkle continues -

“Second. Romans 13 says that God uses governments to punish evildoers and reward the good. But what does this mean? Does every government always punish evil and reward good?

Yeah, right.

Rome was the same government that beheaded John the Baptist, beat Paul on several occasions, and crucified an innocent Jew named Jesus. Just a few years after Paul penned Romans 13, Caesar Nero dipped Christians in tar, lit them on fire, and set them up as human illumination for his garden, all in the name of keeping peace. Romans 13 can’t be a rubber stamp on all of Rome’s attempts at punishing evil. Paul doesn’t write Rome, or America, a blank check to do whatever it wants to do in the name of justice.

Paul’s statement that Rome is ‘God’s servant for your good’ and ‘an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer’ must mean that God can and does work justice through governments but that not everything governments do can be labeled just. Romans 13 does not sanitize all governing activities. Flip through Revelation 13 and 17-18 to see that the New Testament actually comdemns much of what the government does.

The final point is the most significant. If you miss this point, then you won’t understand what Paul is saying to the church in Romans 13.”

(“Romans 13 Doesn’t Tell Christians To Kill Their Enemy”)

Romans 13 Doesn’t Tell Christians To Kill Their Enemy

It’s fascinating (one might say disturbing) to see how each person’s political context shapes his or her understanding of Romans 13. Christians living in

www.patheos.com

@Wrangler @Armour of God @NayborBear

Recall the evil that the state-church government carried out in persecuting Protestants during the Reformation period of church history.

 

[Matthias]

The casual reader will observe re-iterating that Jesus said to buy a sword does not answer the question of why; what other purpose might one plausibly advice, neigh command, one to arm themselves?

I would ask you and the casual reader to recall that Christian commentary answering the question has been presented to you time and again in this thread. You do remember, don’t you?

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world

That didn’t stop Jesus from commanding his disciples to buy a sword in this world.