Reasons Jews Reject Jesus

[Johann]

How can the sin-bearer and the sinner be the same?
If verse eight refers to Israel, then are we to read that Israel is stricken for Israel because of Israel’s sin? How can the sin-bearer and the sinner be the same? Likewise, how can Israel be the servant, the one who “had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth” (Isaiah 53:9)? Israel is not now, nor ever has been, without sin—the Scriptures are replete with examples of Israel’s disobedience.

All of these inconsistencies troubled many rabbis, and they expressed their opinions concerning Rashi’s view. Rabbi Moshe Kohen Iben Crispin of Cordova, who lived in the 14th century, said of the Israel-as-servant interpretation, it “distorts the passage from its natural meaning,” and that Isaiah 53 “was given of God as a description of the Messiah, whereby, when any should claim to be the Messiah, to judge by the resemblance or non-resemblance to it whether he were the Messiah or not.”3

The Rabbinic View of Isaiah 53 Today
To this day, many rabbis persist in citing Rashi as the definitive word on how to interpret Isaiah 53. Others do see the weakness of Rashi’s view and say the passage applies to an individual, perhaps Isaiah himself, King Cyrus, King Hezekiah, Josiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Moses, Job, or even some anonymous contemporaries of Isaiah as the one spoken of by the prophet.4

But looking through this list of people, we are confronted with the fact that none of them was totally blameless. None of them died for the sins of others.

We also cannot deny the reality that countless numbers of Jewish people have come to believe in Yeshua after studying this very passage.

Leah’s Journey with Isaiah 53
Leah was a 25-year-old Jewish woman who was searching for answers to her spiritual questions. When faced with the question, “Was Jesus who he claimed to be?” she wanted the answer to be no. Leah confessed, “I’m starting to see that Jesus is the Messiah, but if I accept it, I’m also rejecting my father, who did not believe in Jesus. I loved him more than anyone else in this world—I can’t do it.”

When she was challenged to read Isaiah 53, Leah found her dad’s old, faded Tanakh. Opening it to the passage in question, she made two astounding discoveries. First, the passage really did sound like it was describing Jesus. And second, her father had circled the entire chapter. And in the margin he had written: “messianic prophecy—Yeshua is Messiah.”

Leah just had to ask … “Who is Yeshua?” When she understood that Yeshua is the Jewish way to say Jesus, it dawned on her. It was a convincing passage, indeed, and even her father had not been able to dismiss it. And that was a key part of what led her to acknowledge that Jesus fit the description of the suffering servant.

Continue--

 

[Johann]

Jesus in Isaiah 53
Isaiah predicted that the Servant of the Lord would be disfigured by suffering and rejected by many. 700 years later, Yeshua was struck, spat on, mocked, and blasphemed (Mark 15:17–19, Matthew 27:39–44).

Isaiah said this person would come from humble beginnings. Yeshua grew up in a city with a poor reputation, Nazareth (Luke 2:39–40,51).

Isaiah said that the Servant would bear our sins and suffer in our place. 700 years later, Jesus “himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed” (1 Peter 2:24).

Isaiah predicted that the Servant would heal many. Jesus made the lame walk, the blind see, and the sick healthy all throughout his earthly ministry (Matthew 8:16–17).

Isaiah said that he would voluntarily take our punishment upon himself. Jesus said: “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep” (John 10:11).

Jesus did not defend himself before Herod, Pontius Pilate, or the Sanhedrin (Matthew 26:62–64, 27:11–14; Luke 23:9). Just as Isaiah foretold, he remained silent during his suffering.

Isaiah predicted that the Servant would die, be buried with a rich man, but would not remain dead. Jesus did all of this when he died on a cross (Mark 15:37; John 19:33–34), was buried in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea (Matthew 27:57–60), and when he rose three days after his death.

In 1922, the late David Baron, a British Jewish believer in Yeshua who was well-versed in rabbinics, wrote:

It is beyond even the wildest credulity to believe that the resemblance in every feature and minutest detail between this prophetic portraiture drawn centuries before his [Jesus’] advent and the story of his life, and death, and glorious resurrection as narrated in the gospels, can be mere accident or fortuitous coincidence.5

Can it be true? Ask yourself—if you have the courage to believe it.

I'll give you the link-

https://jewsforjesus.org/learn/whos-the-subject-of-isaiah-53#:~:text=The%20Traditional%20Response%20to%20Isaiah%2053

 

[Eliyahu613]

Bs"d

Can somebody give me some proof from Isaiah or from the rest of the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah?

When Isaiah speaks about "the servant of God", is Isaiah then talking about God Himself or about somebody else?

For proof that Isaiah 53 speaks about Israel, see here: Isaiah 53

 

[Matthias]

Bs"d

Can somebody give me some proof from Isaiah or from the rest of the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah?

When Isaiah speaks about "the servant of God", is Isaiah then talking about God Himself or about somebody else?

For proof that Isaiah 53 speaks about Israel, see here: Isaiah 53

See the NT interpreters. Jesus is seen by them as the Ideal Israel.

Jesus, the messiah, is doing what Israel should have done but didn’t.

The servant of God isn’t God himself. The servant of God is Israel / the messiah.

 

[NayborBear]

Bs"d

Can somebody give me some proof from Isaiah or from the rest of the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah?

When Isaiah speaks about "the servant of God", is Isaiah then talking about God Himself or about somebody else?

For proof that Isaiah 53 speaks about Israel, see here: Isaiah 53

Seems fairly obvious to myself and others that Isaiah 53 certainly is speaking of Ha'Mashiach.

I reckon I can understand the seemingly "pharasetic mindset" concerning the "traditions" that the talmud embraced due to the highmindedness and arrogance which teed Ha Shem off so much He divorced His chosen people!
Which, btw, caused them to be CUT OFF from Himself!
Hence? The reason FOR Ha'Mashiach!
They rejected Messiah back then?
Much the same way you are rejecting Messiah Ha'Mashiach now!
Contribute it to hard heartedness and stiff a neck! (can't ya feel that kink in your neck?)

Alas, my pharasetic friend. It seems this may well remain the way it shall be until the fulness of the gentiles.
When these pharasees shall have an opportunity yet AGAIN to be regrafted into the TRUE Vine. Thus avoiding remaining cutoff and cast into the fire.

 

[Eliyahu613]

How can the sin-bearer and the sinner be the same?

Bs"d

The above is an abbreviation of the Aramaic expression "Ba siata desmaya", and that means: "With the help of Heaven".

Besiyata Dishmaya - Wikipedia

How could the sin-bearer and sinner not be the same? Do you think that when you sin somebody else gets punished??

If verse eight refers to Israel, then are we to read that Israel is stricken for Israel because of Israel’s sin? How can the sin-bearer and the sinner be the same?

How could the sin-bearer and sinner not be the same? Do you think that when you sin somebody else gets punished??

Likewise, how can Israel be the servant, the one who “had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth” (Isaiah 53:9)? Israel is not now, nor ever has been, without sin—the Scriptures are replete with examples of Israel’s disobedience.

The remnant of Israel
will trust in the name of the Lord.
13 They will do no wrong;
they will tell no lies.
A deceitful tongue
will not be found in their mouths.

Zephaniah 3

All of these inconsistencies troubled many rabbis, and they expressed their opinions concerning Rashi’s view. Rabbi Moshe Kohen Iben Crispin of Cordova, who lived in the 14th century, said of the Israel-as-servant interpretation, it “distorts the passage from its natural meaning,” and that Isaiah 53 “was given of God as a description of the Messiah, whereby, when any should claim to be the Messiah, to judge by the resemblance or non-resemblance to it whether he were the Messiah or not.”3

The Rabbinic View of Isaiah 53 Today
To this day, many rabbis persist in citing Rashi as the definitive word on how to interpret Isaiah 53. Others do see the weakness of Rashi’s view and say the passage applies to an individual, perhaps Isaiah himself, King Cyrus, King Hezekiah, Josiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Moses, Job, or even some anonymous contemporaries of Isaiah as the one spoken of by the prophet.4

But looking through this list of people, we are confronted with the fact that none of them was totally blameless. None of them died for the sins of others.

Nobody in Isaiah is dying for the sins of others. Everybody dies for his own sins.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Can somebody give me some proof from Isaiah or from the rest of the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah?

It’s pretty obvious…

 

[Eliyahu613]

Seems fairly obvious to myself and others that Isaiah 53 certainly is speaking of Ha'Mashiach.

Bs"d

I take that as a "no".

Anybody else maybe who can give some proof from Isaiah or the rest of the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah?

 

[Eliyahu613]

It’s pretty obvious…

Bs"d

I take that as a "no".

Anybody else maybe who can give some proof from Isaiah or the rest of the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah?

 

[Eliyahu613]

Very easy-but first-are you Muslim or Orthodox Judaism-or not sure what you really are?

Bs"d

I was a Christian, until I saw the light. Then I converted to orthodox Judaism.

The Early Rabbis and Isaiah 53
Some of the first written interpretations or targums (ancient paraphrases on biblical texts) see this passage as referring to an individual servant, the Messiah, who would suffer. Messianic Jewish Talmudist, Rachmiel Frydland, recounts:

Our ancient commentators with one accord noted that the context clearly speaks of God’s Anointed One, the Messiah. The Aramaic translation of this chapter, ascribed to Rabbi Jonathan ben Uzziel, a disciple of Hillel who lived early in the second century c.e., begins with the simple and worthy words:

Behold my servant Messiah shall prosper; he shall be high, and increase, and be exceeding strong: as the house of Israel looked to him through many days, because their countenance was darkened among the peoples, and their complexion beyond the sons of men (Targum Jonathan on Isaiah 53, ad locum).2

We find the same interpretation in the Babylonian Talmud:

What is his [the Messiah’s] name? The Rabbis said: His name is “the leper scholar,” as it is written, “Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted.” (Sanhedrin 98b)

Similarly, in an explanation of Ruth 2:14 in the Midrash Rabbah it states:

He is speaking of the King Messiah: “Come hither,” draw near to the throne; “and eat of the bread,” that is, the bread of the kingdom; “and dip thy morsel in the vinegar,” this refers to the chastisements, as it is said, “But he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities.”

The Zohar, in its interpretation of Isaiah 53, points to the Messiah as well:

There is in the Garden of Eden a palace named the Palace of the Sons of Sickness. This palace the Messiah enters, and He summons every pain and every chastisement of Israel. All of these come and rest upon Him. And had He not thus lightened them upon Himself, there had been no man able to bear Israel’s chastisements for the transgression of the law; as it is written, “Surely our sicknesses he has carried.” (Zohar II, 212a)

The early sages expected a personal Messiah to fulfill the Isaiah prophecy. No alternative interpretation was applied to this passage until the Middle Ages. And then, a completely different view was popularized by Jewish commentator Rashi (Rabbi Shlomo Itzchaki), who lived one thousand years after Jesus.

Bs"d

Do the rabbis say that Isaiah 53 is messianic?


No; they do not.


Christianity is unable to prove from the Biblical text of Isaiah 53 that the servant of God, whom the text describes, is a messianic figure. The text does not speak about a king or a ruler, nowhere is spoken about a descendent of David or Jesse, and the word ‘messiah’ is nowhere used in Isaiah 53. Since this is the only text Christianity has to back up their fairy tale of a suffering and dying messiah, they grasp at straws. They claim that the Jewish understanding of this text was always that it speaks about the messiah. Since they cannot come up with any scriptural proof, they bring the ancient rabbinic writings as proof that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah. Christianity goes rabbinic. It used to be only messianic Jews coming with the ancient rabbis in order to make their point, but now also mainstream Christianity is falling back upon the rabbis in order to prove that JC was the messiah. This is about the same as butchers calling upon vegetarians in order to prove that eating meat is very healthy. The reason for this absurd behavior is very simple: The Christians have nothing better.


But what Christianity does here is applying the same tactic which the NT writers displayed: They take a piece of text, rip it out of context, and misrepresent it. In order to understand what is going on in books like the Talmud and Midrash you need to have been thoroughly taught by rabbis in a yeshiva. Because of the fact that Christians have no idea what is flying when they read those books they come to wrong conclusions.


An example of this is to be found on this site: http://www.mayimhayim.org/Poetry/Isaiah%2053.htm


They bring there the following passage from the Talmud: "The Messiah --what is his name?...The Rabbis say, The Leper Scholar, as it is said, `surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God and afflicted...'" (Sanhedrin 98b)


Now their claim is that the Talmud here says that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah. However, that claim is wrong. What the rabbis from the Talmud do here is making an asmachta. An asmachta is a mnemonic device, invented by the rabbis, and it does NOT give over the plain meaning of the Biblical text.


Here is another example of it: Babylonian Talmud tractate Sotah 14a: "R. Simlai expounded: Why did Moses our teacher yearn to enter the land of Israel? Did he want to eat of its fruits or satisfy himself from its bounty? But thus spoke Moses, 'Many precepts were commanded to Israel which can only be fulfilled in the land of Israel. I wish to enter the land so that they may all be fulfilled by me'. The Holy One, blessed be He, said to him, 'Is it only to receive the reward for obeying the commandments that thou seekest? I ascribe it to thee as if thou didst perform them as it is said: Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors, yet he bare the sins of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.” This is a quote from Isaiah 53.


Does the Talmud now think that Isaiah 53 is speaking about Moses? Of course not. The text of Isaiah is only referred to in order to give an example. Just like the Talmud doesn’t believe that Isaiah 53 speaks about Moses, the same way the Talmud doesn’t claim it speaks about the messiah. Here are a few more examples of the Talmudic rabbis making an asmachta:


Babylonian Talmud, Brachot 57b: "Six things are a good sign for a sick person, namely, sneezing, perspiration, open bowels, seminal emission, sleep and a dream. Sneezing, as it is written: 'His sneezings flash forth light'. (Job 41.10) Perspiration, as it is written: 'In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread'. (Gen 3.19) Open bowels, as it is written: 'If lie that is bent down hasteneth to be loosed, he shall not go down dying to the pit'. (Is 51.14) Seminal emission, as it is written: 'Seeing seed, he will prolong his days'. (Is 53.10) Sleep, as it is written:' I should have slept, then should I have been at rest'. (Job 3.13) A dream, as it is written: 'Thou didst cause me to dream and make me to live'. (Is 38.16)


Does anybody in his right mind now think that the Talmud claims that Isaiah 53 speaks about a sick person having a seminal emission? Also from the other texts brought by the Talmud it is clear that the texts referred to by the Talmud are not claimed to be talking about the subject under discussion; a sick person. So also when the Talmud speaks about the messiah, and then refers to Isaiah 53, saying: “As it is written etc.”, then the Talmud does not claim that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.

To be continued bs"d.

 

[Eliyahu613]

In the back of tractate Brachot of the Babylonian Talmud, on page 90-91 of the counting of the mepharshim, rabbenu Shimshon Mekutsih gives the rules according which we learn the Talmud. There is written under the heading “Hagada” (stories) “Hagada, that is all the explanation that comes in the Talmud on any subject that is not a commandment. This is hagada. You are not to learn from it except for that what comes up on your mind. And you must know that all that the rabbis established concerning the practical execution of the commandments, comes from the mouth of Moses our rabbi, peace be upon him, which he received from the mouth of the Mighty One. We are not to add or subtract from it. And what each one explained from the verses like it appeared to him, and like he saw it in his understanding, and according to what came up on his understanding from the explanations, these we learn, and we don’t rely on the rest.”


Everything written in the Talmud that expounds the 613 commandments, given by God to the Jewish people through Moses our teacher, peace be upon him, that is what we rely upon and study diligently. Everything else in the Talmud that does not speak about the 613 commandments, that is hagada, stories. About that is written above: “We don’t rely on the rest.”


So if anybody is not convinced about the concept of asmachta, and wants to think that the Talmud says that Isaiah 53 speaks about Moses, or a sick person who has a seminal emission, or about the messiah, then he should read the last words again about how to read the stories in the Talmud which do not refer to the law: “We don’t rely on the rest.” The same holds true for the Midrash. You can not take a piece of Midrash and say that it is an absolute truth. In the middle ages, in 1263 CE, the Jewish sage rabbi Moshe ben Nachman, aka the Ramban, was forced to defend Judaism against the Christian religion by King James of Aragonia, in Barcelona. The king attended every session of the dispute, and regularly joined in on the Christian side. Afterwards the king considered the Ramban the winner of the dispute, and he rewarded him with 300 gold coins. But when the Ramban published the disputation in writing, he barely escaped execution and was exiled. During the disputation his opponent, a Jewish convert to Christianity, brought a Midrash in which it is written that at the time when the Temple was destroyed, the messiah was born. Upon this the Ramban answered: "We have three kind of books: The first is the Bible, (the Only Testament) and all of us believe in it in perfect faith. The second is what is called the Talmud, which is the commentary on the commandments of the Torah. There are 613 commandments in the Torah, and there is not one of them which is not explained in the Talmud. We firmly believe in the Talmud's explanations of the commandments. We have a third book called Midrash, meaning "sermons". It is just as if the bishop would rise and deliver a sermon, and one of the listeners whom the sermon pleased recorded it. With regard to this book of sermons, if one believes in it; it is well and good, and if one does not believe in it, no harm will come to him. We have sages who wrote that the messiah will not be born until the time near the end, at which time he will come to redeem us from the exile. Therefore, I do not believe the statement of this book that he was born on the day of the destruction of the Temple. We also call the Midrash the book of hagada, that is to say, it is nothing more than matters which one person tells another." Until here the quote of the big Jewish sage the Ramban.


The Ramban didn't believe in the literal statements of the Midrash. The Midrash contains stories, parables, which teach high morals and wise lessons, and we learn the lessons it teaches us, but also here you can not take every statement as a literal truth.


The Ramban said "We have three kind of books. The first is the Bible, and all of us believe in it in perfect faith." That is the highest authority, the Hebrew Bible. Every religious Jew believes in it with perfect faith.


The Midrash: "It is just as if the bishop would rise and deliver a sermon, and one of the listeners whom the sermon pleased recorded it. With regard to this book of sermons, if one believes in it; it is well and good, and if one does not believe in it, no harm will come to him". Simple and plain. Therefore no commentary can push aside the plain literal meaning of the Hebrew Bible, no matter whether that commentary comes from the Talmud, Midrash, or whatever. Therefore, when all through Isaiah the servant of God is the identified as the Jewish people, then also in Isaiah 53 the servant is the Jewish people.


But many times the Biblical text has deeper levels of meaning. There are altogether four levels of understanding the Bible. The first one is the 'pshat', that is the plain literal meaning. That is what tells us in Isaiah 53 that the servant is the people of Israel.


The second level is 'remez'. That means hint, allusion. The text might hint to different things than described in the text.


Then there is 'drash'. That is what is understood from the text by applying the thirteen hermeneutical rules given by God to Moses at Sinai.


And the last one is 'sod', meaning secret. This points to the secrets in the text.


The Jewish sages explain the Bible on all levels, therefore sometimes explanations come up which might seem to be out of place, or contradictory, but those are then explanations on different, deeper, levels.


HOWEVER, no matter what might be derived from a text on different levels, the plain literal meaning of a Biblical text can never be erased.




Summarizing we can conclude:


The rabbis from the Talmud did not say that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.


From the other Jewish writings you can not rip a text out of context and present it as the absolute truth.


Nothing in Isaiah 53 points to a messiah, and the servant in Isaiah is many times identified as the Jewish people.

For the full story about Isaiah 53 look here: Isaiah 53

 

[Johann]

Bs"d

I take that as a "no".

Anybody else maybe who can give some proof from Isaiah or the rest of the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah?

You are either a Goy that embraced Orthodoxy-do you have a assistant rabbi teaching you in the Yeshiva? And do you embrace the 7 Noachide Mitzvot?

 

[Johann]

I was a Christian, until I saw the light. Then I converted to orthodox Judaism.

No- you had the Light and departed from the Light.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

I take that as a "no".

I take that as a “I don’t want to see that in scripture”.

 

[Johann]

I was a Christian, until I saw the light. Then I converted to orthodox Judaism.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Thanksgiving and Prayer
Eph 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
Eph 1:16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

 

[Matthias]

I take that as a “I don’t want to see that in scripture”.

I understand your sentiment but that’s not how I take his comment. I think he genuinely doesn’t see it in scripture.

I know this will be hard for you to do, but try for a moment: throw away the New Testament. Pretend for a moment that it doesn’t exist and never did. If we can do that, we can place ourselves where he, essentially, is now.

If it helps, turn back the clock in your mind - to, say, 100 BC. and think of yourself living at that time. In that setting, read Isaiah 53.

Is Isaiah speaking about a person or a people? He says a people. What do you say? Can you read the text without any thought about Jesus (which is what he is doing) and understand that Isaiah isn’t speaking about a person? To believe what he believes about Isaiah 53, that’s what you would have to be able to do.

I’ve spoken with Jews who were not able to read Isaiah 53 as he does. They understood Isaiah to have been speaking about a person, even the messiah, but were not able to agree with those Jews who lived in NT times and applied what is written in Isaiah to Jesus.

The first hurdle that has to be cleared is that Isaiah is speaking about a specific person. Until a Jew is able to clear that hurdle, there is nothing we can say to persuade a person to believe that Isaiah 53 has anything to do with the messiah.

I like @Eliyahu613 (and I agree with him on some key points and issues) but we have to recognize that he hasn’t yet cleared that hurdle. But not only that. It isn’t that he doesn’t want to; it’s that he can’t with a clear conscience.

 

[Matthias]

Bs"d

I was a Christian, until I saw the light. Then I converted to orthodox Judaism.

I’d like to get to know and understand you better. Were you a denominational or nondenominational Christian? If denominational, which one?

 

[Matthias]

“The rabbis also were aware the Tanach predicted that Messiah would be both humiliated and exalted. They tried to resolve this apparent contradiction in three different ways.

The first possibility developed in the Talmud was that Messiah existed from before the creation of the world and came to earth when the Second Temple was destroyed.

Rabbi Shemuel bar Nehmani said: On the day when the Temple was destroyed Israel suffered much for their sins. … And from whence do we know that on that day [when the Temple was destroyed] Messiah was born? For it is written, ‘Before she travailed, she brought forth‘ [the Messiah].

Various reports are then offered as to his whereabouts after his birth. The Babylonian Talmud says that He sits ‘at the gates of the city of Rome’ and suffers affliction with his people. There he awaits God’s call to step out as exalted Savior and bring about Israel’s salvation. He will do it as soon as Israel hears God’s voice and repents. This view eventually was abandoned, perhaps because it too closely resembled the view of Jewish believers in Yeshua, who believed that the Messiah had first come as Suffering Savior and would return in glory as King-Redeemer.”

(Rachmiel Frydland, What the Rabbis Know About the Messiah, Third ed., p. 7)

Rabbi Frydland (deceased) converted from Orthodox Judaism to Messianic Judaism. He tells his life story in When Being Jewish Was A Crime. An excellent read which I highly recommend to all readers.

 

[Matthias]

“A second explanation of the seemingly contradictory portrayals of Messiah as one both humiliated and exalted appears elsewhere in the Talmud:

R. Alexandri said that R. Joshua bar Levi combined the two paradoxical passages; the one that says, ‘Behold, one like the Son of Man came with the clouds of heaven’ (Dan. 7:13) [showing Messiah’s glory] and the other verse that says, ‘poor and riding upon a donkey p’ (Zech. 9:9 [showing Messiah’s humility]. He explained in this manner: If they are worthy, He will come ‘with the clouds of heaven;’ if they are unworthy He will come ‘poor and riding on a donkey.’”

(Ibid., pp. 7-8)

 

[Matthias]

“A third solution is likewise found in the Babylonian Talmud. Here, the two different roles of Messiah are fulfilled in two different Messiah. The first one is Messiah ben Joseph who fights, suffers extreme humiliation, and is pierced, fulfilling Zechariah’s prophecy, ‘They shall look unto Me whom they have pierced.’ The second one is Messiah ben David, who comes laterand to whom God says: I will declare the decree, The Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the nations for thine inheritance.”

(Ibid. p. 8)