(Refuting) The (Original Sin) Doctrine!!

[Ernest T. Bass]

How can a baby be a sinner? They barely have the capacity to even think let alone even move and yet their supposed have the understanding of wat sin is. Sin is not innate, its not done on impulse, sin is a choice acted out upon our free will which requires an understanding to begin with.

John says sins is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4) therefore a law must exist and that law must be transgressed for sin to exist. If there were no law there would be no sin (Romans 4:15). Adam and Eve were not created sinners but when they transgressed the law given them, then they became sinners. Likewise men today are not born sinners (Ecclesiastes 7:29; Zechariah 12:1) unless, until they transgress God's law then they become sinners. Therefore one cannot be called a sinner who has not transgressed the law no more than a wooden chair could be called stained that has not yet been stained.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

All mankind are born with a sin nature no one needs to teach a child to lie, or to take what is not his and be selfish.==Think!

But when a child is born, he/she does not even know what a lie is or what selfishness is, cannot even speak or understand language. Therefore it is impossible for a child to be born a liar or selfish, i.e., impossible to be born a sinner. He can only become a liar when he becomes accountable to God's law and tells a lie. Therefore no one is born a sinner but a sinner is what one becomes. Romans 3:12 men become unprofitable, not born unprofitable.

 

[Bible_Gazer]

You can create your own sin nature
Habitual sinning becomes you nature
Sin nature is something in action
Adam and Eve were created good by God, he did not give them a nature to sin but they had a "freedom" to sin
Freedom is the problem for mankind(I want what I want) not choosing God's way.
Freedom is good in God's plan, he get what he truly wants from mankind, freely love him from their own heart.
This goes for everyone, not just Adam and Eve, so nobody is bound by nature to sin, freedom must exist. (choice)

 

[historyb]

And you have the truth? man you are deluded!!!

man!! you have been spell bound and blinded by a false, demonic religion!! and u lied about not being a catholic!! and before u say (why u hating) I grow up catholic, I was a altar boy so I know how they roll,

bias!! dis is not bias!! dis is the truth, but u have not ears 2 hear as the bible says, and all ur do now is reply back wiv ur own feelings!! nothing substantial, just the same old blabber, no scripture 2 consolidate ur belief!! no solid history.

did is u in 2 thes 2:9-12

come away from dat false religion, repent for ur idolatry, and turn 2 the real Christ!!

Amen!!

Number one you need to take English your making yourself sound like an idiot and look absolutely stupid the way you write. Did you go to school? Do you have an education? Second I was Catholic but your so full of hatred that you can't understand plain English. I am not surprised that you can not write properly how on earth could you understand plain English. Now go finish kindergarten and than come back when you can write and understand plain English.

 

[historyb]

But when a child is born, he/she does not even know what a lie is or what selfishness is, cannot even speak or understand language. Therefore it is impossible for a child to be born a liar or selfish, i.e., impossible to be born a sinner. He can only become a liar when he becomes accountable to God's law and tells a lie. Therefore no one is born a sinner but a sinner is what one becomes. Romans 3:12 men become unprofitable, not born unprofitable.

Agreed we are not guilty of Adam's sin but we suffer the consequences of such.

 

[Jodi]

John says sins is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4) therefore a law must exist and that law must be transgressed for sin to exist. If there were no law there would be no sin (Romans 4:15). Adam and Eve were not created sinners but when they transgressed the law given them, then they became sinners. Likewise men today are not born sinners (Ecclesiastes 7:29; Zechariah 12:1) unless, until they transgress God's law then they become sinners. Therefore one cannot be called a sinner who has not transgressed the law no more than a wooden chair could be called stained that has not yet been stained.

Romans 5:13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

You can definitely be a sinner and be CALLED a SINNER, however you are not CHARGED with that sin unless you had been given the law beforehand.

Sin is transgression of the law, the LAW DOES EXIST REGARDLESS if you know it exists or not. You have to know the law to then transgress it, but that doesn't mean that the law itself doesn't exist.

The law is the righteousness of God, it is a reflection of Him and His determined purpose of how we are to function, it is ETERNAL it has always existed and always will.

 

[Jodi]

You can create your own sin nature
Habitual sinning becomes you nature
Sin nature is something in action
Adam and Eve were created good by God, he did not give them a nature to sin but they had a "freedom" to sin
Freedom is the problem for mankind(I want what I want) not choosing God's way.
Freedom is good in God's plan, he get what he truly wants from mankind, freely love him from their own heart.
This goes for everyone, not just Adam and Eve, so nobody is bound by nature to sin, freedom must exist. (choice)

Jesus's words were that he could do nothing of himself, likewise he said ONLY God is GOOD as he gave a response identifying himself as separate to God in that sense.

Go read Romans 7 also think about Paul's words where he said that the CARNAL MIND is enmity against God as it is not subject to the law nor can it be. A person must be renewed in their mind through God's given mercy where He gives you measures of the fruit of His Spirit as He wills. Without God's mercy upon this earth civilizations everywhere would be in total wicked dysfunction at all times.

Also I would argue that man has free choice dependent upon circumstances, but he most certainly never has a free will. Having the freedom to make a choice is totally separate/different than having a free will.

 

[DoveSpirit05]

Number one you need to take English your making yourself sound like an idiot and look absolutely stupid the way you write. Did you go to school? Do you have an education? Second I was Catholic but your so full of hatred that you can't understand plain English. I am not surprised that you can not write properly how on earth could you understand plain English. Now go finish kindergarten and than come back when you can write and understand plain English.

Same old Ad hominems, never can address the issue? and ill still be praying for people like this!!

ok man!!
nice chatting!!

 

[Taken]

How can a baby be a sinner?

Born from a corrupt human seed.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Romans 5:13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

You can definitely be a sinner and be CALLED a SINNER, however you are not CHARGED with that sin unless you had been given the law beforehand.

Sin is transgression of the law, the LAW DOES EXIST REGARDLESS if you know it exists or not. You have to know the law to then transgress it, but that doesn't mean that the law itself doesn't exist.

The law is the righteousness of God, it is a reflection of Him and His determined purpose of how we are to function, it is ETERNAL it has always existed and always will.

Yes, Romans 5:13 shows that sin was in the world before the OT law of Moses was given. There was law in the garden of Eden and when that law was transgressed then sin sprang up. (See also Romans 7:8-9 how sin sprang up in Paul later in is life, not at birth, he contrasts being "alive" spiritually to being "dead" spiritually.) Sins of both omission and commission kill when it comes to God's law.

Romans 5:14 the fact death existed from Adam to Moses proves law existed and man transgressed that law. No case I know of in the Bible of one being called a sinner before he sinned in transgressing the law. Romans 9:11 before being born the children had done no good or evil, they had done no righteousness or done any sin. Therefore they were not sinners. We follow in the steps of Adam by transgressing God's law then die spiritually and not born spiritually dead.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Agreed we are not guilty of Adam's sin but we suffer the consequences of such.

We all physically die as a consequence of Adam sinning not because we inherited his sin.

If we all inherited Adam's sin then we would all die for the same sin of Adam but Romans 5:14 speaks of those whom death reigned "over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam’s transgression". People died as a result of their OWN sin, not Adam's. Paul did not need to make a distinction between sins if we all die of the exact same sin of Adam.

 

[Davy]

You have to explain that because man was not created with the ability to sin or sin was not in him. So back to square one, where did it come from if man (Adam) was not created in sin? You can't just say "man sins because of flesh." Where do you derive that logic from?

The idea that Adam and Eve were originally created without the ability to sin is a man-made traditional idea. It's not actually Biblical, but a false tradition of the Jews because they believe God's future Kingdom will be one of flesh. Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15 that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does corruption inherit incorruption. Flesh man represents corruption away from God's future Kingdom to come.

The first one who sinned was the devil prior... to man being created in the flesh. So sin actually began from the devil not involving flesh, because Apostle John also defined sin as the transgression of the law. That is what the devil did in coveting God's throne when it was his job to guard it (Ezek.28). When God created man in the flesh, the ability for flesh man to sin began. It was never to show some salvation of the flesh idea for God's future Kingdom.

 

[Bible_Gazer]

Did any of the Angels sinned without the flesh ?
So I am sure the answer is yes.
So its not the flesh that is sin its the what in the heart that come out of the man that corrupts him.
Matthew 15:18
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

If sin is the flesh, Mary gave Jesus his sinful flesh.
Now I know this doesn't go to well with some. But he was a seed of Abraham and David as the scripts says.

Our flesh is just a house that the heart(soul) reside in, we will get a new body in heaven if our heart is pure.

 

[Davy]

Did any of the Angels sinned without the flesh ?
So I am sure the answer is yes.
So its not the flesh that is sin its the what in the heart that come out of the man that corrupts him.
Matthew 15:18
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

If sin is the flesh, Mary gave Jesus his sinful flesh.
Now I know this doesn't go to well with some. But he was a seed of Abraham and David as the scripts says.

Our flesh is just a house that the heart(soul) reside in, we will get a new body in heaven if our heart is pure.

No, our flesh is responsible for the majority of our lusts to sin. God made it so, otherwise we wouldn't need His Son to come in the form of flesh as us, and be without sin, and die for us on the cross to defeat both death and sin. So really our thinking should be flesh = death. And thus Apostle Paul showed this distinction in 1 Corinthians 15 with the difference between the flesh vs. the spiritual body.

And as I said again and again, but some people only hear what they want to hear, Apostle John defined sin as the transgression of the law. And that's how it was that the devil sinned in the beginning prior to Adam and Eve in the flesh. Thus this flesh world was created 'in bondage' waiting for release when the sons of God are manifested (Romans 8). Paul was speaking that release from bondage about the glory of the world to come, not about this present world.

In Romans 8, Paul showed that God placed this present world in bondage to corruption, waiting in hope along with us for Christ's Salvation in the world to come. That is why flesh is of this present world, not of the world to come. Flesh represents this imperfect world; it represents corruption, imperfection. That is why Apostle Paul said flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.

The type body of the world to come is a "spiritual body", a body of incorruption. That is what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15, which Chapter every Christian should make an in-depth study of.

One of the MAJOR deceptions of this present world, is the false idea of salvation in the flesh, which is a doctrine from the children of darkness. They actually believe that flesh man can become... perfect in the flesh, becoming your own god in the flesh (yes, they actually believe they can become their own god. Afterall, that was the serpent's original temptation against Adam and Eve). That is why they don't want to believe that flesh = corruption and is not what is saved in Christ's Salvation.

 

[soul man]

So its not the flesh that is sin its the what in the heart that come out of the man that corrupts him.

Where did that heart to sin come from, man was not created with a heart to sin?

 

[Bible_Gazer]

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:53
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

This is death to life . The flesh body as of this time is subject to death but it to be blameless before he come.
We are not to be naked(without a body) when we go from here to there.

2 Corinthians 5:1-3
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

God is after our heart, what ever is in the heart it goes to heaven with it.

Yes we cause feeling for desire of the works of the flesh, it starts from your mind and causes a lustful reaction.
When it talks about the flesh against the spirit Gal.5 that is in the heart not flesh and bones substance.(its Carnality minded)

 

[Bible_Gazer]

Where did that heart to sin come from, man was not created with a heart to sin?

What goes into the heart is what you received in you environment or surrounding as you grow up in this world.
No God did not make a heart to sin, but human has the freedom to make a choice with what it wants.
The heart decides what it want, if its against the laws of God it will be a sinner.

 

[soul man]

What goes into the heart is what you received in you environment or surrounding as you grow up in this world.
No God did not make a heart to sin, but human has the freedom to make a choice with what it wants.
The heart decides what it want, if its against the laws of God it will be a sinner.

What about Adams innocence? Something had to change for man to have a heart to sin.

 

[Bible_Gazer]

What about Adams innocence? Something had to change for man to have a heart to sin.

His wife changed him, he follow her thoughts

 

[Jodi]

Yes, Romans 5:13 shows that sin was in the world before the OT law of Moses was given. There was law in the garden of Eden and when that law was transgressed then sin sprang up. (See also Romans 7:8-9 how sin sprang up in Paul later in is life, not at birth, he contrasts being "alive" spiritually to being "dead" spiritually.) Sins of both omission and commission kill when it comes to God's law.

Romans 5:14 the fact death existed from Adam to Moses proves law existed and man transgressed that law. No case I know of in the Bible of one being called a sinner before he sinned in transgressing the law. Romans 9:11 before being born the children had done no good or evil, they had done no righteousness or done any sin. Therefore they were not sinners. We follow in the steps of Adam by transgressing God's law then die spiritually and not born spiritually dead.

We are told that IN Adam all die, Adam brought forth mortality. Adam transgressed when he did not have weak flesh, when weak flesh/mortality and the need to serve the flesh in order to live passed to all men, sin occurred according to different means, out of bondage from a weak body. The Israelites just didn't receive the law, they also received blessing and cursing according to how they kept the law. Certain sins had certain punishments, some of those punishment equated to being put to death, and we read blessings being given equating to a prolonged life. With or without the law however we all die because by Adam's punishment we were made mortal, which means God placed us in bondage where no man could escape, through his own self sin because his flesh was made weak. The very reason why God forgives us of our sins by one man. Think about it, it is by God's Spirit that we have self control, it is one of the mercies, one of the fruits that God gives to man. Likewise there are other fruits, but God only gives these according to measure, except for Jesus, He was the only mortal to receive of the Spirit not by measure, by such he was obedient to God and went to the cross like a lamb without spot or blemish. Man can do nothing of himself, only God is good, for a man to be perfect he must receive the full measure of the Spirit, and by that perfection he is deserving of eternal life. Jesus is our example our proof of the works of God's Spirit unto a man. If we have faith in this operation of God unto Jesus, we are promised to be made perfect, become a joint heir with Christ being an heir of God, having the fullness of His anointing Spirit.

I think we are missing something just focusing on the word sin or sinner here, as if that is the only word that equates to identifying missing God's mark/ going the wrong way, which is what sin means. For instance people who don't have the law are indeed called wicked/evil/bad, they are called that because they are going the wrong way, which is the same thing as being a sinner.