Regeneration before or after saving faith

[Enoch111]

One of the greatest travesties I have seen in christian chat is the arminian vs calvin debate

A TOTAL WASTE OF TIME.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

"Paul Christensen,

The problem with this statement for one has to be elected before God can exercise mercy, is that a person can believe the gospel, receive Christ as Saviour and yet not be elected.

What are you talking about? There is not one non elect person who will ever be saved.

This means that the promises about believing that Jesus is the Son of God and that He rose from the dead are unreliable because according to unconditional election, no one who chooses to receive Christ as Saviour can really know whether they are elected or not.

Your posts had been fine until the last few pages. Your posts have come undone. The train is now off the track.

So, in the case of the RCC where no one can have the assurance of salvation until the judgment, it is the same with election, because no one can know whether they are elected until the final judgment. So even if a person stands before Christ and says, "I believed your promise and took you at your word for my salvation", Jesus could very well say, "Sorry, you are not one of the elect so, in spite of you believing my promise in the Bible, you are not saved."

Complete nonsense.

Do you see the problem with your comment about election?

There is no problem with what he said. The only problem is your horrible caricature.

How will you explain this difficulty where it seems that Jesus can promise salvation to everyone, but not all who believe the promise will actually be saved in the end because they are not part of the elect.

No verse in scripture says any such thing as you make up here.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

How many verses do you need telling you that belief precedes salvation? That is " rudimentary biblical knowledge" yet you all can't even get that straight.

You do not understand biblical salvation or the verses you are mangling.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

A TOTAL WASTE OF TIME.

Understanding biblical salvation is not a waste of time.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Yes. It did give rise to a major division in the Protestant church. No doubt about it.

The division is between the sheep and the goats.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Oh come on! You are like my younger brother who upsets the chess board when he knows he's losing!

You are showing a lack of understanding concerning God's nature and character. God loves righteousness and hates evil, so how can He ordain evil and sin and the resultant suffering in the world because of it?

What! Are you expecting God to create a race of programmable robots which He can control; or did He create people with free choice?

When God told Adam and Eve to eat the fruit of any of the trees in the garden, except the one tree that if they ate of the fruit they would die, did God force them to eat the fruit? Did He force it down their throats, or did they choose of their own free will to eat of the fruit and to disobey God?

So, are you saying that God deliberately made that happen, or did He, because He gave them free will to choose, and then tested them on it, which they failed, had to allow the consequences to happen?

Now that sin entered the world along with the curse of suffering, disease, and death, are you going to demand that God takes free will away from mankind so they become programmable robots?

So, is God responsible for the death, suffering, disease, and man's inhumanity in the world, or is man himself by his own free choices? What is the alternative?

Do you really believe that God is just standing by and doing exactly nothing? Have you actually read the Bible? After all, it is God's communication with mankind to show what He is doing about the state of humanity and His plan of salvation which He has been working on through the ages.

If you really do read the Bible, you will see that God has been very active in the affairs of mankind right through from Adam to the present day, while maintain man's ability to choose their own future through free will choice.

So, if you want to continue with your own views, that God is responsible for all the suffering in the world, then carry on, and don't let the Bible confuse you with the facts!

If God did not ordain/decree the fall, then He allowed it to happen. He just sat back, allowed Adam and Eve to fall, and consequently us too, but it served no purpose. If God did not decree the fall, then it did not serve His purpose. That is deism. Deism teaches a god just sets back and watches things unfold.

Also, if God did not decree/ordain the fall, then the cross was plan B. Wanna go that far?

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

"Paul Christensen,

If man is not given the freedom to choose his own future,

Man never had the freedom to choose his own future. God is God. Man is the creature, he is not God.

then he is deprived of free choice[/QUOTE],
earlier your posts were okay, but now they are in decline...what has gone wrong?

and is then no longer responsible for his actions.[/QUOTE]

Men are 100% responsible, Acts17....God is not bound by your philosophy.

That means that when he stands before God in the judgment, he can quite rightly say, "I am not guilty, because you forced me to do all the things I did through your heavenly decree of predestination"

.

This is a wicked caricature of the biblical God. Do you have a split personality? I really do not understand it is as if two different people are posting.

This would mean that God could not legally judge him guilty of sin because he did not have the free choice not to sin.

This is off the wall carnal reasoning with no scriptural support.

So, God has provided the Bible as His communication to us to show us His will for our lives. We can decide to follow what it says, or choose to ignore it and live the way we want. In this, we are deciding our own future

.

No. The bible is not multiple-choice, We are commanded to repent and believe the gospel. It is a command, not a choice.

If we did not freely choose Christ to be our Saviour, we would be doing it under duress and we would be serving God through fear and compulsion, and not through free love and praise to Him for His mercy and grace. And those who reject Christ through decree of God cannot be held responsible for their actions because they were not given the opportunity to freely choose.

Man centered theology with a denial of the effects of the fall.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

If God did not ordain/decree the fall, then He allowed it to happen. He just sat back, allowed Adam and Eve to fall, and consequently us too, but it served no purpose. If God did not decree the fall, then it did not serve His purpose. That is deism. Deism teaches a god just sets back and watches things unfold.

Also, if God did not decree/ordain the fall, then the cross was plan B. Wanna go that far?

He was posting solidly before, now the wheels have come off,lol.

 

[Paul Christensen]

The division is between the sheep and the goats.

Sometimes when I look in the mirror I look like a desiccated old goat so where does that place me?

 

[Paul Christensen]

If God did not ordain/decree the fall, then He allowed it to happen. He just sat back, allowed Adam and Eve to fall, and consequently us too, but it served no purpose. If God did not decree the fall, then it did not serve His purpose. That is deism. Deism teaches a god just sets back and watches things unfold.

Also, if God did not decree/ordain the fall, then the cross was plan B. Wanna go that far?

The cross wasn't a plan B. That would suggest that the fall was unexpected and God went into a panic and put an emergency plan into place.

I don't think that God is like that. Because He exists out of time, He sees everything with an eternal view, so He can see the past, present and future at the same time. While He didn't foreordain the future, He foresaw it before the foundation of the world, and so He had His plan in place already, and as soon as the Fall happened, His plan went into immediate development with His first prophecy to Adam, speaking of the devil: "He will bruise the heel of the Seed of the woman (Jesus), but the Deed of the woman will bruise his head". This is a prophecy concerning the future crucifixion of Christ (bruising His heel), and the resurrection in which the devil became a defeated foe (bruising his head). The beauty of this prophecy is to offset Eve being deceived by the devil into eating the fruit by turning the tables on the devil by causing a woman to give birth to the very Person who was going to bring about his total defeat. It is a reflection of God's grace and mercy to Eve in saying, "You struck out here, but I will make it up to you and all women by bringing forth the Saviour of mankind through a woman".

We see through subsequent prophecies (which no other book than the Bible has) God letting us all know what He was planning to do beforehand, and then arranging history to ensure that every prophecy right up to Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem totally fulfilled in absolute detail.

When He died on the cross, Isaiah's prophecy was fulfilled in amazing detail which shows that the Holy Spirit had revealed to Isaiah clear details which Isaiah could never had known hundreds of years before even crucifixion was even thought of as a method of execution.

We therefore see right through the Old Testament that there was a definite developing plan in spite of Israel's repeated failures to remain faithful to God. When we see the development, right down to Daniel's prophecy about the emerging empires before they even emerged - to the two legs of the image depicting the Roman Empire being split in two, which happened under Constantine - we see that although God allowed total free will in man's decision-making, His design and plan for the recovery of mankind to Himself was not impeded in any way. It was always plan A for Him and He remained determined that it would not fail no matter how events unfolded.

Foreknowledge is a great thing, because God knew what was going to happen well before it did, and many things that did happen He made sure it did happen. It was no accident that Alexander the Great introduced Koine Greek throughout all the countries he conquered. Then his untimely death enabled the emergence and rise of the Roman Empire which built vastly improved roads all throughout, which made travel much easier, and then the Pax Romana, and the suppression of Mediterranean pirates. All this made is much easier for the gospel to spread throughout the Empire, and for Paul to make the several sea journey's relative safety. All this was no accident. God made sure that when the gospel was ready to be preached throughout the known world, He made sure that the conditions were right for it.

If we compare the Biblical prophecies with the subsequent historical records we see how the prophecies were fulfilled in detail. God set all this up to show beyond doubt that He is the true living God whose written Biblical word is absolutely true. There have been unbelieving scholars who have made this study and have become converted to Christ as a result, because they have been left in no doubt that God is really there, has spoken through the Bible and what He has said is absolutely true.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The cross wasn't a plan B. That would suggest that the fall was unexpected and God went into a panic and put an emergency plan into place.

I don't think that God is like that. Because He exists out of time, He sees everything with an eternal view, so He can see the past, present and future at the same time. While He didn't foreordain the future, He foresaw it before the foundation of the world, and so He had His plan in place already, and as soon as the Fall happened, His plan went into immediate development with His first prophecy to Adam, speaking of the devil: "He will bruise the heel of the Seed of the woman (Jesus), but the Deed of the woman will bruise his head". This is a prophecy concerning the future crucifixion of Christ (bruising His heel), and the resurrection in which the devil became a defeated foe (bruising his head). The beauty of this prophecy is to offset Eve being deceived by the devil into eating the fruit by turning the tables on the devil by causing a woman to give birth to the very Person who was going to bring about his total defeat. It is a reflection of God's grace and mercy to Eve in saying, "You struck out here, but I will make it up to you and all women by bringing forth the Saviour of mankind through a woman".

We see through subsequent prophecies (which no other book than the Bible has) God letting us all know what He was planning to do beforehand, and then arranging history to ensure that every prophecy right up to Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem totally fulfilled in absolute detail.

When He died on the cross, Isaiah's prophecy was fulfilled in amazing detail which shows that the Holy Spirit had revealed to Isaiah clear details which Isaiah could never had known hundreds of years before even crucifixion was even thought of as a method of execution.

We therefore see right through the Old Testament that there was a definite developing plan in spite of Israel's repeated failures to remain faithful to God. When we see the development, right down to Daniel's prophecy about the emerging empires before they even emerged - to the two legs of the image depicting the Roman Empire being split in two, which happened under Constantine - we see that although God allowed total free will in man's decision-making, His design and plan for the recovery of mankind to Himself was not impeded in any way. It was always plan A for Him and He remained determined that it would not fail no matter how events unfolded.

Foreknowledge is a great thing, because God knew what was going to happen well before it did, and many things that did happen He made sure it did happen. It was no accident that Alexander the Great introduced Koine Greek throughout all the countries he conquered. Then his untimely death enabled the emergence and rise of the Roman Empire which built vastly improved roads all throughout, which made travel much easier, and then the Pax Romana, and the suppression of Mediterranean pirates. All this made is much easier for the gospel to spread throughout the Empire, and for Paul to make the several sea journey's relative safety. All this was no accident. God made sure that when the gospel was ready to be preached throughout the known world, He made sure that the conditions were right for it.

If we compare the Biblical prophecies with the subsequent historical records we see how the prophecies were fulfilled in detail. God set all this up to show beyond doubt that He is the true living God whose written Biblical word is absolutely true. There have been unbelieving scholars who have made this study and have become converted to Christ as a result, because they have been left in no doubt that God is really there, has spoken through the Bible and what He has said is absolutely true.

Then if the cross was not plan B, then that means God decreed/ordained the fall. Foreknowledge is God doing something, as the Greek word proginosko is a verb. If means He was doing something when He foreknew someone. You are conflating His foreknowledge with His omniscience.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The cross wasn't a plan B. That would suggest that the fall was unexpected and God went into a panic and put an emergency plan into place.

I don't think that God is like that. Because He exists out of time, He sees everything with an eternal view, so He can see the past, present and future at the same time. While He didn't foreordain the future, He foresaw it before the foundation of the world, and so He had His plan in place already, and as soon as the Fall happened, His plan went into immediate development with His first prophecy to Adam, speaking of the devil: "He will bruise the heel of the Seed of the woman (Jesus), but the Deed of the woman will bruise his head". This is a prophecy concerning the future crucifixion of Christ (bruising His heel), and the resurrection in which the devil became a defeated foe (bruising his head). The beauty of this prophecy is to offset Eve being deceived by the devil into eating the fruit by turning the tables on the devil by causing a woman to give birth to the very Person who was going to bring about his total defeat. It is a reflection of God's grace and mercy to Eve in saying, "You struck out here, but I will make it up to you and all women by bringing forth the Saviour of mankind through a woman".

We see through subsequent prophecies (which no other book than the Bible has) God letting us all know what He was planning to do beforehand, and then arranging history to ensure that every prophecy right up to Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem totally fulfilled in absolute detail.

When He died on the cross, Isaiah's prophecy was fulfilled in amazing detail which shows that the Holy Spirit had revealed to Isaiah clear details which Isaiah could never had known hundreds of years before even crucifixion was even thought of as a method of execution.

We therefore see right through the Old Testament that there was a definite developing plan in spite of Israel's repeated failures to remain faithful to God. When we see the development, right down to Daniel's prophecy about the emerging empires before they even emerged - to the two legs of the image depicting the Roman Empire being split in two, which happened under Constantine - we see that although God allowed total free will in man's decision-making, His design and plan for the recovery of mankind to Himself was not impeded in any way. It was always plan A for Him and He remained determined that it would not fail no matter how events unfolded.

Foreknowledge is a great thing, because God knew what was going to happen well before it did, and many things that did happen He made sure it did happen. It was no accident that Alexander the Great introduced Koine Greek throughout all the countries he conquered. Then his untimely death enabled the emergence and rise of the Roman Empire which built vastly improved roads all throughout, which made travel much easier, and then the Pax Romana, and the suppression of Mediterranean pirates. All this made is much easier for the gospel to spread throughout the Empire, and for Paul to make the several sea journey's relative safety. All this was no accident. God made sure that when the gospel was ready to be preached throughout the known world, He made sure that the conditions were right for it.

If we compare the Biblical prophecies with the subsequent historical records we see how the prophecies were fulfilled in detail. God set all this up to show beyond doubt that He is the true living God whose written Biblical word is absolutely true. There have been unbelieving scholars who have made this study and have become converted to Christ as a result, because they have been left in no doubt that God is really there, has spoken through the Bible and what He has said is absolutely true.

Why sure He foreordained the future. Nothing happens outside of His sovereign will.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Then if the cross was not plan B, then that means God decreed/ordained the fall. Foreknowledge is God doing something, as the Greek word proginosko is a verb. If means He was doing something when He foreknew someone. You are conflating His foreknowledge with His omniscience.

I think you are splitting hairs. God did not ordain the Fall. It happened through Adam's and Eve's free choice. If He ordained the Fall, then He would be just as responsible for the Fall as Adam was. This means that God was in league with the devil in bringing about the fall. This also means that God sinned against His own moral law. Do you really and honestly believe that? I don't.

There are things that God cannot do. He cannot go against His own moral principles. If he created humans with ability to make free choices, He cannot take that choice away from them when it suits Him. The fruit of the Spirit is His own nature. He cannot go against that and behave in some other way. To ordain the fall of man, bringing sin into the world, violates the fruit of kindness, and goodness, and therefore is right against His very nature and character.

The truth is that God knew it was going to happen, but He could not have stopped it because He would be taking the ability to make free choices away from Adam and Eve. But He didn't just do nothing. He gave Adam and Eve a fair warning. Adam complied with the warning and kept away from the tree, but Eve was tricked by Satan, and Adam chose to do what his wife desired instead of taking his stand for God against what she wanted him to do.

My daughter has a small pug dog. He is a bit naughty. We know that if he gets out and runs across the road, he could get hit by a car. One day he did get out and ran toward the road, we called him back, but he kept going and was nearly skittled by an oncoming car. Now did we force him out on the road, or did he choose to run out there? Did we just sit by and do nothing? No. We chased after him and nearly got hit ourselves.

If you think that God deliberately ordained the Fall of man, resulting in sin, suffering, disease, and death to enter into the world, then you have to say that God is unkind and bad. If that is so, the fruit of the Spirit becomes meaningless because God becomes unfaithful, which is another violation of His own nature.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I think you are splitting hairs. God did not ordain the Fall. It happened through Adam's and Eve's free choice. If He ordained the Fall, then He would be just as responsible for the Fall as Adam was. This means that God was in league with the devil in bringing about the fall. This also means that God sinned against His own moral law. Do you really and honestly believe that? I don't.

There are things that God cannot do. He cannot go against His own moral principles. If he created humans with ability to make free choices, He cannot take that choice away from them when it suits Him. The fruit of the Spirit is His own nature. He cannot go against that and behave in some other way. To ordain the fall of man, bringing sin into the world, violates the fruit of kindness, and goodness, and therefore is right against His very nature and character.

The truth is that God knew it was going to happen, but He could not have stopped it because He would be taking the ability to make free choices away from Adam and Eve. But He didn't just do nothing. He gave Adam and Eve a fair warning. Adam complied with the warning and kept away from the tree, but Eve was tricked by Satan, and Adam chose to do what his wife desired instead of taking his stand for God against what she wanted him to do.

My daughter has a small pug dog. He is a bit naughty. We know that if he gets out and runs across the road, he could get hit by a car. One day he did get out and ran toward the road, we called him back, but he kept going and was nearly skittled by an oncoming car. Now did we force him out on the road, or did he choose to run out there? Did we just sit by and do nothing? No. We chased after him and nearly got hit ourselves.

If you think that God deliberately ordained the Fall of man, resulting in sin, suffering, disease, and death to enter into the world, then you have to say that God is unkind and bad. If that is so, the fruit of the Spirit becomes meaningless because God becomes unfaithful, which is another violation of His own nature.

There are no splitting hairs from me my friend. God ordained the fall.

There was a man once who had 10 children, 7 sons and 3 daughters. It says he was blameless and upright, and turned away from evil. He daily offered sacrifices for his children and he said “Perhaps my sons have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.” One day the angels(sons of God ) came before God and so did Satan. When God asked him where he had been Satan said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.” God then asked him if he ever considered His servant Job. Satan said "Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side?" Satan knew he could not lay a hand on Job, his family or his possession, as God protected him. Yet God gave Job over into Satan's hands to do with him whatever he wished. Yet, God set the parameters of what he could and could not do. God was the One who introduced Job into their conversation. God was the One who gave Satan permission to steal his possession, kill his children, afflict him with boils from head-to-toe. God ordained Job's afflictions, yet Through all this Job did not sin nor did he blame God.

Then the Assyrians were used by God to throttle Israel in Isaiah 10. Then in 1 Chronicles 5:25 God stirred up the King of Assyria to attack Israel(this may or may not be the same account in Isaiah, as I do not know if He used them twice to throttle Israel). God uses evil to fulfill His will.

That is why the 2nd London Baptist Confession of Faith so correctly states...
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree

1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree. ( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )

 

[SovereignGrace]

And also states...

2. Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions. ( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice. ( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4. These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished. ( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

5. Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto. ( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only. ( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

7. The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel. ( 1 Thessalonians 1:4,

 

[Paul Christensen]

There are no splitting hairs from me my friend. God ordained the fall.

There was a man once who had 10 children, 7 sons and 3 daughters. It says he was blameless and upright, and turned away from evil. He daily offered sacrifices for his children and he said “Perhaps my sons have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.” One day the angels(sons of God ) came before God and so did Satan. When God asked him where he had been Satan said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.” God then asked him if he ever considered His servant Job. Satan said "Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side?" Satan knew he could not lay a hand on Job, his family or his possession, as God protected him. Yet God gave Job over into Satan's hands to do with him whatever he wished. Yet, God set the parameters of what he could and could not do. God was the One who introduced Job into their conversation. God was the One who gave Satan permission to steal his possession, kill his children, afflict him with boils from head-to-toe. God ordained Job's afflictions, yet Through all this Job did not sin nor did he blame God.

Then the Assyrians were used by God to throttle Israel in Isaiah 10. Then in 1 Chronicles 5:25 God stirred up the King of Assyria to attack Israel(this may or may not be the time account in Isaiah, as I do not know if He used them twice to throttle Israel). God uses evil to fulfill His will.

That is why the 2nd London Baptist Confession of Faith so correctly states...
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree

1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree. ( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )

Maybe your use of the word "ordained" is different from my use. I have no argument with your examples. It seems that you are saying that God actually didn't deliberately orchestrate the fall, which would be against His essential nature, but that He knew that the Fall was going to happen, and did not do anything to stop it, because to do so, would have "done violence to the will of the creature". So, I can concede that the Fall was part of His plan of salvation for mankind.

The account of Job is a good object lesson to us that life catastrophes are not because of any actual sin on our part, but because of circumstances that we know nothing about, and that those who accuse a suffering person that he is suffering because of some sin he has committed are wrong in their estimation of what is causing the suffering.

The invasion of Assyria shows the consequences of being unfaithful to God and turning to idols, and to adamantly continue to disobey God in spite of every warning and every plea from Him to return to Him.

So, the Bible is a mixture of history, education, prophecy, the life and ministry of Jesus, the birth and growth of the church, and instruction on how to be genuinely converted to Christ and to get on the path of developmental sanctification, also, to show us a general picture of how the world is going to end in a total victory for Christ.

So, in general, as we see through all the twists and turns of Biblical history, God, already knowing what is going to happen, allows men and women to make their own choices, but they cannot choose the resulting consequences; also He has set a day when every single person will have to stand before Him and give their account for the life choices they made.

So, the bottom line is that no one is going anywhere else but finally to the throne of judgment. The Scripture says, "How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation". So this shows that there will be no eventual escape from the final judgment, where although God has allowed people to make their choices, good, bad, and ugly, they will never actually get away with what they have done.

God may be patient and forbearing to those who rebel against Him and are part of the inhumanity to man, but there comes a day when God's patience runs out, Jesus will come again, and the unsaved dead will be resurrected to the final judgment and the final eternal consequences will be exacted upon them. The Scripture says that the smoke of their eternal torment will go up to show all what are the consequences of rebelling against God and rejecting Jesus Christ.

So, the big question in the judgment will be to the Old Testament people: "What was your attitude to the Messiah to come?" And His question to those after Pentecost, "What was your attitude to Jesus Christ and His finished work on Calvary?" This will show that there will be only two groups of people, the "sheep" and the "goats" - those who received Christ as Saviour, and those who reject Him.

What this means is that those who reject Christ will be finally dealt with, and those who received Christ will have their faith in Him finally ratified before the judgment seat of Christ.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Maybe your use of the word "ordained" is different from my use. I have no argument with your examples. It seems that you are saying that God actually didn't deliberately orchestrate the fall, which would be against His essential nature, but that He knew that the Fall was going to happen, and did not do anything to stop it, because to do so, would have "done violence to the will of the creature". So, I can concede that the Fall was part of His plan of salvation for mankind.

The account of Job is a good object lesson to us that life catastrophes are not because of any actual sin on our part, but because of circumstances that we know nothing about, and that those who accuse a suffering person that he is suffering because of some sin he has committed are wrong in their estimation of what is causing the suffering.

The invasion of Assyria shows the consequences of being unfaithful to God and turning to idols, and to adamantly continue to disobey God in spite of every warning and every plea from Him to return to Him.

So, the Bible is a mixture of history, education, prophecy, the life and ministry of Jesus, the birth and growth of the church, and instruction on how to be genuinely converted to Christ and to get on the path of developmental sanctification, also, to show us a general picture of how the world is going to end in a total victory for Christ.

So, in general, as we see through all the twists and turns of Biblical history, God, already knowing what is going to happen, allows men and women to make their own choices, but they cannot choose the resulting consequences; also He has set a day when every single person will have to stand before Him and give their account for the life choices they made.

So, the bottom line is that no one is going anywhere else but finally to the throne of judgment. The Scripture says, "How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation". So this shows that there will be no eventual escape from the final judgment, where although God has allowed people to make their choices, good, bad, and ugly, they will never actually get away with what they have done.

God may be patient and forbearing to those who rebel against Him and are part of the inhumanity to man, but there comes a day when God's patience runs out, Jesus will come again, and the unsaved dead will be resurrected to the final judgment and the final eternal consequences will be exacted upon them. The Scripture says that the smoke of their eternal torment will go up to show all what are the consequences of rebelling against God and rejecting Jesus Christ.

So, the big question in the judgment will be to the Old Testament people: "What was your attitude to the Messiah to come?" And His question to those after Pentecost, "What was your attitude to Jesus Christ and His finished work on Calvary?" This will show that there will be only two groups of people, the "sheep" and the "goats" - those who received Christ as Saviour, and those who reject Him.

What this means is that those who reject Christ will be finally dealt with, and those who received Christ will have their faith in Him finally ratified before the judgment seat of Christ.

The fall had to happen my friend. And God ordained it to happen. God uses primary and secondary causes to fulfill His will. When God stirred up the king of Assyria, yes it was because of their rebellion. God used a evil ppl to throttle Israel. God used Judas Iscariot to betray Jesus, so that the crucifixion took place. God even sent a lying spirit upon King Saul. God uses evil to fulfill His will, yet He remains without sin.

And when God uses these ppl to fulfill His will, they freely do it. this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.[Acts of the Apostles 2:23] It was God who handed over His Son into these evil men's hands to do with Him as they freely chose to do. No one made them spit upon Him, mock Him, yank His beard out, smack Him on His face, and crucify Him. We see man's responsibility and God's sovereignty in full display here. God used their wicked hearts to fulfill His will His Son be crucified.

He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?[Romans 8:32] This speaks the same truth that it was God who delivered His Son over into these wicked men's hands to do as they were pleased to do. And that which they did, they freely and gladly did it. And they will be held accountable for what they did on the day of judgment.

 

[Candidus]

Let’s just say I have yet to meet a confessed Arminian who does not. I would think his followers would follow his teachings correct?

I am neither calvin or Arminian, I just know what I see their followers say

can you sow me otherwise?

There are many critics of Arminius who have no inkling of what he said, or didn't say; to include most of those who call themselves "Arminians". It is one thing for me to deduce from the "sin-and-win" approach I see from most of the Calvinists I know, and it is another thing to find that specifically taught in Calvin's writings.

The onus of proof is placed on the person making the accusation; not on someone to come in and prove that something is not there.

 

[Candidus]

This is just plain dishonest, and/or talking out of both sides of the mouth. Yeah, I know, Piper does it all the time, too. When it's something good, you all want to say he ordained it, if it's something bad, you want to say he allowed it. Man up and own up to the fact that in your system, God's decrees ultimately cause everything. Quit bobbing and weaving around the cold determinism of consistent Calvinism.

"God didn't cause everyone's evil, but he certainly allowed it. That us where there is "allowing" in Calvinism."

Here is a response to that question of the "allowing" of God from the 1770's that you may find interesting.

"A mother conceives an unaccountable antipathy to her sucking child. She goes to the brink of a precipice, bends herself over it with the passive infant in her bosom, and, withdrawing her arms from under him, drops him upon the craggy side of a rock, and thus he rolls down from rock to rock, till he lies at the bottom beaten to pieces, a bloody instance of finished destruction. The judge asks the murderer what she has to say in her own defense. The child was mine, replies she, and I have a right to do what I please with my own. Besides, I did neither throw him down nor murder him: I only withdrew my arms from under him, and he fell of his own accord, in mystic Geneva she is honorably acquitted; but in, England the executioner is ordered to rid the earth of the cruel monster.

So may God give us commission to rid the Church of your Diana, who teaches that he, the Father of mercies, does by millions of his passive children, what the barbarous mother did by one of hers; affirming, that he unconditionally withholds grace from them; and that, by absolutely refusing to be “the author and finisher of their faith,” he is the absolute author and finisher of their unbelief, and consequently of their sin and damnation." ~John Fletcher

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What do you mean by him teaching works?

I have yet to meat an arminian who believes that a person receives eternal life at the moment of justification, And this justification is eternal. ie, does not have to be maintained, in fear it can be least.

Jesus said in John 6. whoever eats the food he came to give will NEVER hunger, NEVER thirst. will Never Die, Live forever, Has eternal life, and WILL be raised on the last day. While arminians I know profess these verses. they do not in reality believe them, because they teach salvation can be lost. Which is basically, a works based gospel (I have to do something in order to earn or at the least, maintain my salvation or it will be lost)