Regeneration before or after saving faith

[Eternally Grateful]

Not one lost person has ever loved God. That’s a biblically impossible thing for them to do.

yep

But it does not mean they can not understand what God is saying to them when God draws them. In fact Romans 1 says the lost not only know who God is, and what he has done through creation, thus being without excuse. They also understand that the sin they love rightly condemns them.

 

[Candidus]

You're hostile in your mind towards the true God of Scripture. Remember when I told you how you fret over the just deaths of sinners? You call God unfair and are opposed to him in your mind. You've drawn up your own parameters for God to meet, or he can't be your God. John 6:66 comes to mind with Luke 19:14.

For the record of what John Fletcher said? Well, for one, he was hostile in his mind toward God as well and held a severely truncated view of God and rejected clear teachings of God's attributes. He was offended about God apparently according to his diatribe. But I can understand his dilemma a bit due to the fact he wasn't very acquainted with all the Scriptures concerning God's or mans nature.

Another mismomer of his is that somehow everyone is God's child. Nope. Read John 8:31ff and 1 John 3:10.

John Fletcher the Methodist got his teachings from the Wesley's who outright denied biblical doctrines such as predestination and election. John Wesley also held disdain for Abraham and David. So, based on that sandy theological ground of course their disciples would also have false views of God.

The bottom line in Scripture is that God is just in whatsoever he does with and in his creatures. Its not that you all have a problem with the fact he does this, which is proven in Scripture. No, no, you have a problem with God himself.

I noticed that you did not refute Fletcher. Don't worry, no one 250 years has been able to!

 

[SovereignGrace]

Notice in this picture how they have two paths to choose from? This is one example of the gross misapplying of the verse to free will. Man is already on the road to destruction, and does not have to do one thing to go to hell. Man does not come to the proverbial ‘fork in the road’ and choose option A or option B.



Now onto the issue at hand…



I don’t know the times I’ve heard this verse used and abused when used in conjunction with free will. Anytime ppl hear free will, they use this verse as one of their favorites. They’ll say, “it’s a free choice,” and “and as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” But’s lets delve deeper into this verse and see what it entails.



“But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”



Ppl get hung up on the choose for yourselves whom you will serve and but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. Is that what that verse is really saying? Absolutely not. So, lets lay the context out for all to see and read for themselves and see which side is right.

In verse 2, Joshua tells them how God had called Abraham out from Ur, as he and his family worshiped other gods, in other words, they were pagan idol worshippers. He then told them how God had rescued them from Egypt(another pagan nation Israel was enslaved to) and even drowned Pharaoh and his army in the Red Sea. He then mentioned how God had delivered them from Amorites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hittites, Girgashites, Hivites and Jebusites. Then we come to verse 14 where Joshua said “Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord.” He, Joshua, instructed them to throw away the idols their ancestors worshiped(so they were also pagan idol worshipers, too). Then in verse 15 Joshua stated But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. So, Joshua is basically saying, If you think serving the Lord is not desirable for you, then choose the idols your fathers worshiped beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites. So, he is telling them to choose to serve idol A or idol B. He then said, But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.



Now, they did say they would not forsake the Lord, but Joshua said they were unable to serve Him[vs 19] then they said they would and he said “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen to serve the Lord.”[vs 22] and they replied “Yes, we are witnesses.”



But in reality, did they serve Him? No. As you can see that many times they fell into idolatry and killed many of God’s prophets, after this encounter with Joshua and his stern warning. “He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins. If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, he will turn and bring disaster on you and make an end of you, after he has been good to you.” [vss19b,20] So, what this verse is really saying, is not that they could choose between serving God or Satan, but rather, choose from idol A, the gods their fathers served beyond the Euphrates, or idol B, the gods of the Amorites.



Not much to choose from, eh?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

But if He has decreed all things to come to pass, and I believe He has, then this can’t be a primary cause of Him ensuring it happening. So, that’s why I asked if this would be an event decreed that He used secondary causes.

when he chose pharaoh,

Did he force pharaoh to keep changing his mind, or did Pharoah do what he already desired to do. and God just made sure he was raised up to power

When the 30 year old man takes the 12 year old girl and forcibly rapes her. Is it because God force him to do this, or did the guy do what he aready wanted to do in the first place. and for some reason, unknown to us God allowed it to happen.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And yet the Christ said He will not lose one the Father has given Him to save. I will take His words over your interpretation.

amen

God is not going to give his gift to people he KNOWS are going to leave in unbelief, because they never had true faith to begin with,

He is not going to be mocked. Because he can not be fooled.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The word draw means to literally drag off. Those He draw, WILL come to Him. That’s as simple as I can make it.

yet he drew Judas.

so much for that..

 

[Renniks]

View attachment 8866

Notice in this picture how they have two paths to choose from? This is one example of the gross misapplying of the verse to free will. Man is already on the road to destruction, and does not have to do one thing to go to hell. Man does not come to the proverbial ‘fork in the road’ and choose option A or option B.



Now onto the issue at hand…



I don’t know the times I’ve heard this verse used and abused when used in conjunction with free will. Anytime ppl hear free will, they use this verse as one of their favorites. They’ll say, “it’s a free choice,” and “and as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” But’s lets delve deeper into this verse and see what it entails.



“But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”



Ppl get hung up on the choose for yourselves whom you will serve and but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. Is that what that verse is really saying? Absolutely not. So, lets lay the context out for all to see and read for themselves and see which side is right.

In verse 2, Joshua tells them how God had called Abraham out from Ur, as he and his family worshiped other gods, in other words, they were pagan idol worshippers. He then told them how God had rescued them from Egypt(another pagan nation Israel was enslaved to) and even drowned Pharaoh and his army in the Red Sea. He then mentioned how God had delivered them from Amorites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hittites, Girgashites, Hivites and Jebusites. Then we come to verse 14 where Joshua said “Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord.” He, Joshua, instructed them to throw away the idols their ancestors worshiped(so they were also pagan idol worshipers, too). Then in verse 15 Joshua stated But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. So, Joshua is basically saying, If you think serving the Lord is not desirable for you, then choose the idols your fathers worshiped beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites. So, he is telling them to choose to serve idol A or idol B. He then said, But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.



Now, they did say they would not forsake the Lord, but Joshua said they were unable to serve Him[vs 19] then they said they would and he said “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen to serve the Lord.”[vs 22] and they replied “Yes, we are witnesses.”



But in reality, did they serve Him? No. As you can see that many times they fell into idolatry and killed many of God’s prophets, after this encounter with Joshua and his stern warning. “He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins. If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, he will turn and bring disaster on you and make an end of you, after he has been good to you.” [vss19b,20] So, what this verse is really saying, is not that they could choose between serving God or Satan, but rather, choose from idol A, the gods their fathers served beyond the Euphrates, or idol B, the gods of the Amorites.



Not much to choose from, eh?

Wow, what a warping of scripture. Sad. Really. Anything to deny Free Will, I guess.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are misapplying Joshua 24:15. First off, this “choose you this day” was given to God’s covenant Jews, not all mankind indiscriminately. Joshua did not tell the Hittites, Hivites, Jebusites, Assyrians, Syrians, Egyptians, Philistines, to “choose you this day”.

I wrote a blog about that verse and I’ll post it here.

does not change the meaning

many of those jews were lost, unbelieving dead jews.

if what you say is true, They could not chose, because they were dead

 

[SovereignGrace]

yep

But it does not mean they can not understand what God is saying to them when God draws them. In fact Romans 1 says the lost not only know who God is, and what he has done through creation, thus being without excuse. They also understand that the sin they love rightly condemns them.

Romans 1:18ff is not a treatise on how to be saved, but that mankind outside of the Christ is in total ruin. In fact, the pagan who has not known God, and what He did through the Christ, is still guilty because he knows God exists via natural revelation. NR does not tell the pagan who’s never heard the gospel that the Son died on a cross and rose three days later.

 

[SovereignGrace]

yet he drew Judas.

so much for that..

He never drew Judas. Book, chapter, verse?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

View attachment 8866

Notice in this picture how they have two paths to choose from? This is one example of the gross misapplying of the verse to free will. Man is already on the road to destruction, and does not have to do one thing to go to hell. Man does not come to the proverbial ‘fork in the road’ and choose option A or option B.



Now onto the issue at hand…



I don’t know the times I’ve heard this verse used and abused when used in conjunction with free will. Anytime ppl hear free will, they use this verse as one of their favorites. They’ll say, “it’s a free choice,” and “and as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” But’s lets delve deeper into this verse and see what it entails.



“But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”



Ppl get hung up on the choose for yourselves whom you will serve and but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. Is that what that verse is really saying? Absolutely not. So, lets lay the context out for all to see and read for themselves and see which side is right.

In verse 2, Joshua tells them how God had called Abraham out from Ur, as he and his family worshiped other gods, in other words, they were pagan idol worshippers. He then told them how God had rescued them from Egypt(another pagan nation Israel was enslaved to) and even drowned Pharaoh and his army in the Red Sea. He then mentioned how God had delivered them from Amorites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hittites, Girgashites, Hivites and Jebusites. Then we come to verse 14 where Joshua said “Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord.” He, Joshua, instructed them to throw away the idols their ancestors worshiped(so they were also pagan idol worshipers, too). Then in verse 15 Joshua stated But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. So, Joshua is basically saying, If you think serving the Lord is not desirable for you, then choose the idols your fathers worshiped beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites. So, he is telling them to choose to serve idol A or idol B. He then said, But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.



Now, they did say they would not forsake the Lord, but Joshua said they were unable to serve Him[vs 19] then they said they would and he said “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen to serve the Lord.”[vs 22] and they replied “Yes, we are witnesses.”



But in reality, did they serve Him? No. As you can see that many times they fell into idolatry and killed many of God’s prophets, after this encounter with Joshua and his stern warning. “He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins. If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, he will turn and bring disaster on you and make an end of you, after he has been good to you.” [vss19b,20] So, what this verse is really saying, is not that they could choose between serving God or Satan, but rather, choose from idol A, the gods their fathers served beyond the Euphrates, or idol B, the gods of the Amorites.



Not much to choose from, eh?

chose this day

Jesus said that his will was for Israel to come under his wings, so he could be their mother, but they were unwilling

prety much says it all..

 

[SovereignGrace]

does not change the meaning

many of those jews were lost, unbelieving dead jews.

if what you say is true, They could not chose, because they were dead

BINGO! The dead cannot choose Him. They hate Him. BINGO!

 

[SovereignGrace]

chose this day

Jesus said that his will was for Israel to come under his wings, so he could be their mother, but they were unwilling

prety much says it all..

That’s not from Jeremiah 24:15.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Romans 1:18ff is not a treatise on how to be saved, but that mankind outside of the Christ is in total ruin. In fact, the pagan who has not known God, and what He did through the Christ, is still guilty because he knows God exists via natural revelation. NR does not tell the pagan who’s never heard the gospel that the Son died on a cross and rose three days later.

romans 1 is mans state

it also says man has no excuse.

This applies to judgment day

people in the OT never heard of the son of God. yet they were saved. By faith

i would not be so picky to try to tell God who he can and can not save

 

[SovereignGrace]

when he chose pharaoh,

Did he force pharaoh to keep changing his mind, or did Pharoah do what he already desired to do. and God just made sure he was raised up to power

When the 30 year old man takes the 12 year old girl and forcibly rapes her. Is it because God force him to do this, or did the guy do what he aready wanted to do in the first place. and for some reason, unknown to us God allowed it to happen.

He chose Pharaoh to display His power. God kept hardening his heart. Pharaoh would have relented to save his own skin. God kept hardening it so that he would be drowned in the Red Sea.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

BINGO! The dead cannot choose Him. They hate Him. BINGO!

yet many of them chose God

BAMN!

its like me telling people. Chose do do this and do that, Knowing some CAN NOT CHOSE.

I would be deceptive, cunning, and seen as a deceiever, Because I offered a choce to people who had no capacity to make a decision.

I first have to show them both sides, explain what will happen if they chose one side or the other. Then and ONLY then can I honestly and rightefully offer them a choice between one thing and another.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That’s not from Jeremiah 24:15.

your right, I showed another place where jesus showed his will was to do one thing, yet they CHOSE to ignore his will..

 

[SovereignGrace]

romans 1 is mans state

it also says man has no excuse.

This applies to judgment day

people in the OT never heard of the son of God. yet they were saved. By faith

i would not be so picky to try to tell God who he can and can not save

The saved ones knew their Messiah was coming and trusted in Him. I’m not telling God who He can and can’t saved. You’re the one doing this my friend. If God doesn’t try to save everyone, He is being unfair in your book. I say He is being just by leaving many in their fallen state. Grace is unmerited favor, and for it to be grace, it must be free. If He has to offer grace to everyone, then it becomes an obligation and ceases to be grace.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

He chose Pharaoh to display His power. God kept harden

Your right, He chose pharaoh, because he KNEW pharaoh would do what God needed him to do

the word harden means strengthen my friend, Harden is a poor translation

God strengthened Pharaohs desire to do what he wanted to do in the first place. And remember, in much of that discussion, Pharoah hardened his own heart many times.

if I want to do something, and I know it is wrong, and I do it. and I live through it, My desire to do it is strengthened, and my inhibitions are weakened. I am hardening my heart

Like God says, tell the truth so that by seeing they can not see, and hearing they do not hear. Because the more you reject, the more you believe the lie you have told yourself. and the harder it is to repent.

 

[SovereignGrace]

yet many of them chose God

BAMN!

its like me telling people. Chose do do this and do that, Knowing some CAN NOT CHOSE.

I would be deceptive, cunning, and seen as a deceiever, Because I offered a choce to people who had no capacity to make a decision.

I first have to show them both sides, explain what will happen if they chose one side or the other. Then and ONLY then can I honestly and rightefully offer them a choice between one thing and another.

Be ye holy as I am holy. That’s a command. We are commanded to be as holy as He is. By using your logic, God is being deceptive, cunning, and seen as a deceiver, as He has commanded us to be just as holy as He is, yet we are unable to do so.

We are commanded to love the Lord with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. Yet none of us can do this. By using your logic, God is being deceptive, cunning, and seen as a deceiver, seeing He has commanded us to love Him with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, knowing we cannot do it.

God gave the Jews the Law to keep. He demanded perfect obedience to it. If they violated it, many were put to death. He knew NONE OF THEM could keep it perfectly, yet commanded them to keep it perfectly. By using your logic, God is being deceptive, cunning, and seen as a deceiver, as He commanded to keep the Law perfectly, and punished them for their disobedience.