Regeneration before or after saving faith

[SovereignGrace]

Part 2...


So God foreordained the most evil event in history, the crucifixion, yet He lays blame for it completely on the choice of godless men, according to this passage. You must embrace the teaching in the Scriptures that God ordained an innocent man's death at the hands of sinners, yet they freely did so because they wanted to. You may not understand how God works in such a way without coercion, but you must submit to the fact the the Holy Scripture, through and through, teaches this quite matter-of-factly. Why does God do this? Well, for one, after the crucifixion event we now begin to understand that Christ did this for the good of His people, though we may not have seen it at the time. Prior to His execution, the disciples were told by Jesus, "you do not now understand what I am doing" and even Peter tried to dissuade Him. However, God used evil for good and did so blamelessly.

There is a similar idea in Acts 4:27-28 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."

These Scriptures texts must be accepted as authoritative. Someone might argue that they were an exception ... but there is no biblical rationale for believing that. It must be admitted that the Scripture plainly teaches that God ordains evil events and remains blameless, events which include the self-determined choices of man.

God "works all things after the counsel of his will" (Ephesians 1:11).

This "all things" includes the fall of sparrows (Matthew 10:29), the rolling of dice (Proverbs 16:33), the slaughter of his people (Psalm 44:11), the decisions of kings (Proverbs 21:1), the failing of sight (Exodus 4:11), the sickness of children (2 Samuel 12:15), the loss and gain of money (1 Samuel 2:7), the suffering of saints (1 Peter 4:19), the completion of travel plans (James 4:15), the persecution of Christians (Hebrews 12:4-7), the repentance of souls (2 Timothy 2:25), the gift of faith (Philippians 1:29), the pursuit of holiness (Philippians 3:12-13), the growth of believers (Hebrews 6:3), the giving of life and the taking in death (1 Samuel 2:6), and the crucifixion of his Son (Acts 4:27-28). (Piper)

In conclusion, when determining the truth of a matter we must never simply use naked unaided human logic, but always let our logic be ruled by the highest presupposition which is the Holy Scriptures. We may not like the result but what God has revealed, this we must embrace and teach. Otherwise we make God in our own image, and present to others a God other than the one who reveals Himself in Scripture.

Did God's Decree Bring About the Fall?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Did God's Decree Bring About the Fall?

In the past week I have had several people ask me how Adam's original sin come about since he did not have a fallen nature to contend with. Thus it's not that Adam and Eve were originally prevented from obeying God due to a sinful nature, as we are now. Also since God is NOT the author of evil, didn't make Adam sin, nor did HE put the sinful desire within them, so the question is really how (or why) did Adam originally sin? This is really an attempt to understand the relationship between God's sovereignty and freewill in the beginning, prior to the fall.

By confession we believe that God created human beings "with knowledge, righteousness, and true holiness, after His own image; having the law of God written in their hearts, and power to fulfil it; and yet under a possibility of transgressing, being left to the liberty of their own will, which was subject unto change." (WSF IV.2) This is to say that man was created in such a way where he was not yet sealed in righteousness as he will be in glory, but created with a an inclination toward good. Why evil temptation was able to overcome that inclination, the Scripture does not reveal, so any dogmatic response would be speculative. So while there are indeed mysteries that are not fully revealed to us in Scripture ... on the other hand, there are some things revealed that we do know and from these we can draw some conclusions.

Did God's Decree Bring About the Fall?

It is important that we first consider the alternative to God ordaining the fall event to show that it is really quite and untenable and unsustainable position. The truth of God's word is honored not in holding exclusively to one truth to the exclusion of another truth, but in believing the whole counsel of God. The Bible plainly teaches that man is responsible for the sin he commits and it also teaches that God is sovereign. You would be correct theologically to say that God is not the author of evil and that man alone is culpable for the sin he commits. You must also consider, however, that God is sovereign and has thus left nothing up to chance. That word "nothing" is a universal negative. For if chance were to exist then, of course, God would not be sovereign and thus, God would not be God.

God did not coerce Adam to commit sin and fall, but he certainly ordained it. Even an Arminian who thinks that God merely allowed the fall, must admit that before God created the world he already knew what the future would be, and so it was within his Providence for such events to take place, for he could just have easily decided to prevent the fall...but He didn't. But we believe that while God did not make man sin coersively he certainly ordained such events to occur. Consider that if God did not decree the fall then evil is something completely outside His sovereign control ... If evil came into the universe by surprise for God, totally apart from His providence, then there are some things He does not know or things He is powerless over and therefore God would, by definition, lack omniscience and omnipotence. And then how do we know whether He will be able to defeat evil in the future if evil is outside God's control even though the Scripture plainly says that God ordains all events that come to pass (Eph 1:11).

As for how it could be that God decreed the fall. Obviously it is ultimately for His glory. In it He showed to the angels and all creation His manifest wisdom, justice and mercy and all of His perfections. He does not operate people like puppets. Adam freely chose to rebel ... God did not coerce him... and now fallen men freely choose to reject Christ, apart from grace. You ask, how could God ordain evil? Well, let me give you a clear biblical example which shows that he does, so you don't think I am just blowing smoke.

Consider that Christ's crucifixion was a certainty which God planed in eternity and prophesied would come to pass in the Old Testament. But also consider that men would freely choose to crucify the Son of God. See Acts 2:23 which brings the two together -- "this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death." This concurrent series of events taking place simultaneously is called compatibilism, which is how the Scriptures really answer this question.

Part 1...

I do appreciate the effort here, SovereignGrace, and I thank you for this. I read over this and it's part 2, though I they didn't really give me and answer, I once again thank you for posting them and the effort.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Part 2...


So God foreordained the most evil event in history, the crucifixion, yet He lays blame for it completely on the choice of godless men, according to this passage. You must embrace the teaching in the Scriptures that God ordained an innocent man's death at the hands of sinners, yet they freely did so because they wanted to. You may not understand how God works in such a way without coercion, but you must submit to the fact the the Holy Scripture, through and through, teaches this quite matter-of-factly. Why does God do this? Well, for one, after the crucifixion event we now begin to understand that Christ did this for the good of His people, though we may not have seen it at the time. Prior to His execution, the disciples were told by Jesus, "you do not now understand what I am doing" and even Peter tried to dissuade Him. However, God used evil for good and did so blamelessly.

There is a similar idea in Acts 4:27-28 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."

These Scriptures texts must be accepted as authoritative. Someone might argue that they were an exception ... but there is no biblical rationale for believing that. It must be admitted that the Scripture plainly teaches that God ordains evil events and remains blameless, events which include the self-determined choices of man.

God "works all things after the counsel of his will" (Ephesians 1:11).

This "all things" includes the fall of sparrows (Matthew 10:29), the rolling of dice (Proverbs 16:33), the slaughter of his people (Psalm 44:11), the decisions of kings (Proverbs 21:1), the failing of sight (Exodus 4:11), the sickness of children (2 Samuel 12:15), the loss and gain of money (1 Samuel 2:7), the suffering of saints (1 Peter 4:19), the completion of travel plans (James 4:15), the persecution of Christians (Hebrews 12:4-7), the repentance of souls (2 Timothy 2:25), the gift of faith (Philippians 1:29), the pursuit of holiness (Philippians 3:12-13), the growth of believers (Hebrews 6:3), the giving of life and the taking in death (1 Samuel 2:6), and the crucifixion of his Son (Acts 4:27-28). (Piper)

In conclusion, when determining the truth of a matter we must never simply use naked unaided human logic, but always let our logic be ruled by the highest presupposition which is the Holy Scriptures. We may not like the result but what God has revealed, this we must embrace and teach. Otherwise we make God in our own image, and present to others a God other than the one who reveals Himself in Scripture.

Did God's Decree Bring About the Fall?

Apparently none of this is concerning. What is concerning is that God created "Bob" 1000 feet above ground and didn't catch him before he went "splat." Right @Jane_Doe22 ? We need to worry about this because if we do then we can consider that God must be unjust to let this happen to "Bob" or to any other sinner, Christ aside and truth aside: pay attention to what God "did" to "Bob." It's unfair?

This is what should concern us; "Bob," analogies, feelings, subjectivity, appeals to emotions, what is fair, not Biblical truths or the true Christ, but "Bob" because if we worry about "Bob" it gets our focus off of Christ, truth, the word &c.

These are the myths and fables people have been turned to, it scratches their itching ears, they want to hear this, it appeals to them; 2 Timothy 4.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

I do appreciate the effort here, SovereignGrace, and I thank you for this. I read over this and it's part 2, though I they didn't really give me and answer, I once again thank you for posting them and the effort.

Of course it "didn't" give you an answer, because since it "didn't" you can persuade others that it won't answer them either. Then they too can then brush it off, which is what you hope to facilitate because it actually does give an answer.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I do appreciate the effort here, SovereignGrace, and I thank you for this. I read over this and it's part 2, though I they didn't really give me and answer, I once again thank you for posting them and the effort.

You’re welcome.

 

[XRose]

Wow

where do you come up with this stuff?

It's called researching the scriptures with the help of holy spirit.
You obviously lack spirit so cannot understand and just post your pagan ideas.

 

[XRose]

Constant flames from you!!! I don't even know where to start with this.

Preacher and Sovereign are the same wolf in the same sheep's fleece as their lies and errors prove.
It's time to cast them out into the wilderness where their demons roam.

 

[XRose]

Flames? Not at all.

You don't know where to start? I do. How about with apologizing for being disrespectful and implying I've lied in your response?

That response of yours was where the inflammatory comments began.

Try remembering my moniker: preacher4truth, as that is what I will always tell you, confront you with, hold you to, which causes you to be uncomfortable, thus your responses.

You preach some truth but it is Satan's not GOD's.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It's called researching the scriptures with the help of holy spirit.
You obviously lack spirit so cannot understand and just post your pagan ideas.

sorry, But that is not found in scripture.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Preacher and Sovereign are the same wolf in the same sheep's fleece as their lies and errors prove.
It's time to cast them out into the wilderness where their demons roam.

wow.. ok. I guess you are now God too?

 

[XRose]

wow.. ok. I guess you are now God too?

You are Satan?

 

[XRose]

sorry, But that is not found in scripture.

Your friend Satan tell you to say that?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Your friend Satan tell you to say that?

No, but my God told me to put you on ignore,

Good day I will pray for you

 

[Preacher4Truth]

You preach some truth but it is Satan's not GOD's.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!! Poor thing...

 

[XRose]

No, but my God told me to put you on ignore,

Good day I will pray for you

Does your god Satan answer your prayers?

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

How do you blame something that has no sovereignty?
It's like you're picked up a rock, dropped it mid-air, and then said it's the rock's fault for falling.

A rock is not an image bearer of God.
All men everywhere are fully responsible to obey and worship God.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

I believe I have sovereignty: hence I am responsible for my sins.

However, if I do not have sovereignty (such as believed in Calvinism), then I would not at all be responsible for any of my actions: good or bad. I would just be a falling rock. Hence my question.

You do not understand the image bearer doctrine.

God says he knit us together in the womb. Our parents don't create us. What happened to his sovereignty? Did he suddenly drop the ball and have to have someone else do the creating?

Our parents did create us......sperm and egg

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You do not understand the image bearer doctrine.

Our parents did create us......sperm and egg

Our parents bore our physical body

it was God who breathed life into us (gave us our soul)

 

[Jane_Doe22]

A rock is not an image bearer of God.
All men everywhere are fully responsible to obey and worship God.

The understanding of "image of God" varies across Christianity.

With Arminianisms, that includes sovereignty. Hence responsibility for actions.

Without sovereignty (such as in Calvinsim), that image is a human-shaped rock. Still has no sovereignty, and hence no responsibility for any actions. And until you tell me how you believe each person has the choice whether or not to accept Christ, that rock will forever bear no responsibility for not coming unto Christ, or for falling when dropped.

 

[Renniks]

But there is contrary to your straw man. You're so desperate to be right you're attempting to tell us what we believe even if it's false. God allowed and permitted the fall.

Not according to Calvinism, where God's decree comes before his knowledge. You need to be consistent with your Calvinist theology.