Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
I've thoroughly explained this several times and have interacted completely with all you've stated. You know this to be true yet you disingenuously continue to protest.
Regeneration before or after saving faith
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But it is truthfully my experience no one of ANY faith has been convinced of Truth via people arguing on forums.Flames? Not at all.
You don't know where to start? I do. How about with apologizing for being disrespectful and implying I've lied in your response?
That response of yours was where the inflammatory comments began.
Try remembering my moniker: preacher4truth, as that is what I will always tell you, confront you with, hold you to, which causes you to be uncomfortable, thus your responses.
I'm sorry if that upsets you, but I cannot pretend that my experience has been otherwise. And I cannot lie about what I believe- and yes I know that it does not match what you've been told. Frankly, I'm sorry if you're upset, but I can't stray from things I know to be true. You flaming and calling me names doesn't change any of that. The most i can do here or anywhere is follow God, loving Him and my fellow men (which does include showing kindness and loving even those I passionately disagree with or find to be anti-Christian).
Anthony D'Arienzo
Well-Known Member
He did not cause the fall.
The fall of Adam was ordained to come to pass however.
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
Your experience doesn't translate to mine, yet at the same time you've implied I lied. Yeah, you went there. That was 100% disrespectful.
Lol, it's quite odd how you keep telling others what they know or don't know, or what they think or don't think. Do you have some kind of god complex? While you insist people apologize to you for "disrespecting" you? It's hard to take you seriously, sitting up there on your high horse. You seem unable to understand that most people don't come at scripture from your perspective, so they don't color it all with determinism, so they are not going to see what you claim to see in the Word, no matter how much you needle them.I've thoroughly explained this several times and have interacted completely with all you've stated. You know this to be true yet you disingenuously continue to protest.
Is there something above God's decree that cause it?
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
The above is not accurate, none of us say he caused the fall. But we do recognize he allowed it, knew it, and still created the world.
So, since he had gone ahead with creation knowing all this would take place, are you still going to blame him?
Except I did not make any such implication. If you took it that way, such was not my intention.
Again:
I'm sorry if that upsets you, but I cannot pretend that my experience has been otherwise. And I cannot lie about what I believe- and yes I know that it does not match what you've been told. Frankly, I'm sorry if you're upset, but I can't stray from things I know to be true. You flaming and calling me names doesn't change any of that. The most i can do here or anywhere is follow God, loving Him and my fellow men (which does include showing kindness and loving even those I passionately disagree with or find to be anti-Christian).
There you go, using "allowed" again. In the determinism of your system there is no "allowed". Try being honest.
If everything as claimed in the confession, brought about by God's decree, was there somehow something above God's decree that caused the fall?
God's knowing isn't even the question here, so why appeal to it? That's what an arminian would do.
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
OK, you have no ability to acknowledge I've answered you in spite of your protests, so you go into character attack mode, all evidence of having lost an argumen
As soon as you're ready to stay on topic and acknowledge you've been answered let me know, or you can go ad hominem. Up to you but I'm for honest dialog, not the disingenuous bickering and that you offer because you know you cannot offer a refutation, nor can you accept one.
Like I said, you seem unable to understand that other Christians do not and never will come at scripture from your perspective. Think about that when you reply to them and maybe you can at least understand why we get annoyed with what we see as constant evasiveness. Because we see your whole system as absurd, and we are never going to understand why you can't see the obvious contradictions.OK, you have no ability to acknowledge I've answered you in spite of your protests, so you go into character attack mode, all evidence of having lost an argumen
As soon as you're ready to stay on topic and acknowledge you've been answered let me know, or you can go ad hominem. Up to you but I'm for honest dialog, not the disingenuous bickering and that you offer because you know you cannot offer a refutation, nor can you accept one.
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
It was your intention, that's why you typed it out that way.
I've never called you names, that accusation is a lie. Apologizing is beyond you.
Nowhere has this calling you names taken place while your accusation seems so elementary school era. But I would gather you're waiting for others to give it a like even though it never happened, yet you'd receive their like nonetheless knowing it to be untrue.
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
I've shown how you've taken scripture out of context, misapplied it, both to the lost and saved. To that you have no answer.
All of your responses to that refutation are to attack my character and do not address these facts.
What the???It was your intention, that's why you typed it out that way.
I've never called you names, that accusation is a lie. Apologizing is beyond you.
Nowhere has this calling you names taken place while your accusation seems so elementary school era. But I would gather you're waiting for others to give it a like even though it never happened, yet you'd receive their like nonetheless knowing it to be untrue.
Dude, but I'm here to respectfully discuss theology and better understand/love my fellow man. Not to be called a liar or mocked. This is ridiculous.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Sometimes it is better to just ignore when users get that way.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
Of course it's ridiculous, you implied I lied and offered a disrespectful post to say what I offered must be a lie. That was your intent so now you get to be disingenuous and play the victim.
By the way, I never called you a liar so your accusation is a twist on the narative. I stated you were implying I lied, which in fact you did.
The only fellow man you love are those who agree with you and who don't show you your gospel is false. Yes, you sure love them, right?
You offered a disrespectful post and directed it at me, but you are incapable of admitting this fact.
Preacher, you are being beyond ridiculous.Of course it's ridiculous, you implied I lied and offered a disrespectful post to say what I offered must be a lie. That was your intent so now you get to be disingenuous and play the victim.
By the way, I never called you a liar so your accusation is a twist on the narative. I stated you were implying I lied, which in fact you did.
The only fellow man you love are those who agree with you and who don't show you your gospel is false. Yes, you sure love them, right?
You offered a disrespectful post and directed it at me, but you are incapable of admitting this fact.
You can be upsette about this thing you perceive as a slight, all you want. You can be upset that I do not follow your version of the Gospel. But frankly, even that level of upset makes no logical sense (remember how i have no sovereignty in Calvinism?)
But I don't have to listen to your flames, personal attacks, and being lectured about I should leave the Gospel I find in the Bible. You flame on "ignore".
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
But there is contrary to your straw man. You're so desperate to be right you're attempting to tell us what we believe even if it's false. God allowed and permitted the fall.
I don't have to try.
We don't believe nor have we stated God caused the fall, that is all on you.
But it is the question which is why you're attempting to mitigate it.
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SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
Did God's Decree Bring About the Fall?
In the past week I have had several people ask me how Adam's original sin come about since he did not have a fallen nature to contend with. Thus it's not that Adam and Eve were originally prevented from obeying God due to a sinful nature, as we are now. Also since God is NOT the author of evil, didn't make Adam sin, nor did HE put the sinful desire within them, so the question is really how (or why) did Adam originally sin? This is really an attempt to understand the relationship between God's sovereignty and freewill in the beginning, prior to the fall.
By confession we believe that God created human beings "with knowledge, righteousness, and true holiness, after His own image; having the law of God written in their hearts, and power to fulfil it; and yet under a possibility of transgressing, being left to the liberty of their own will, which was subject unto change." (WSF IV.2) This is to say that man was created in such a way where he was not yet sealed in righteousness as he will be in glory, but created with a an inclination toward good. Why evil temptation was able to overcome that inclination, the Scripture does not reveal, so any dogmatic response would be speculative. So while there are indeed mysteries that are not fully revealed to us in Scripture ... on the other hand, there are some things revealed that we do know and from these we can draw some conclusions.
Did God's Decree Bring About the Fall?
It is important that we first consider the alternative to God ordaining the fall event to show that it is really quite and untenable and unsustainable position. The truth of God's word is honored not in holding exclusively to one truth to the exclusion of another truth, but in believing the whole counsel of God. The Bible plainly teaches that man is responsible for the sin he commits and it also teaches that God is sovereign. You would be correct theologically to say that God is not the author of evil and that man alone is culpable for the sin he commits. You must also consider, however, that God is sovereign and has thus left nothing up to chance. That word "nothing" is a universal negative. For if chance were to exist then, of course, God would not be sovereign and thus, God would not be God.
God did not coerce Adam to commit sin and fall, but he certainly ordained it. Even an Arminian who thinks that God merely allowed the fall, must admit that before God created the world he already knew what the future would be, and so it was within his Providence for such events to take place, for he could just have easily decided to prevent the fall...but He didn't. But we believe that while God did not make man sin coersively he certainly ordained such events to occur. Consider that if God did not decree the fall then evil is something completely outside His sovereign control ... If evil came into the universe by surprise for God, totally apart from His providence, then there are some things He does not know or things He is powerless over and therefore God would, by definition, lack omniscience and omnipotence. And then how do we know whether He will be able to defeat evil in the future if evil is outside God's control even though the Scripture plainly says that God ordains all events that come to pass (Eph 1:11).
As for how it could be that God decreed the fall. Obviously it is ultimately for His glory. In it He showed to the angels and all creation His manifest wisdom, justice and mercy and all of His perfections. He does not operate people like puppets. Adam freely chose to rebel ... God did not coerce him... and now fallen men freely choose to reject Christ, apart from grace. You ask, how could God ordain evil? Well, let me give you a clear biblical example which shows that he does, so you don't think I am just blowing smoke.
Consider that Christ's crucifixion was a certainty which God planed in eternity and prophesied would come to pass in the Old Testament. But also consider that men would freely choose to crucify the Son of God. See Acts 2:23 which brings the two together -- "this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death." This concurrent series of events taking place simultaneously is called compatibilism, which is how the Scriptures really answer this question.
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