Regeneration before or after saving faith

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

With all possible respect, to me your view doesn't quite mess with logic or make lot of sense.

I am just offering the scriptures to you.
I do believe what these scriptures teach. Now that being said, to grasp it in detail takes time and study.
To keep it as simple as I can....the new man in Ephesians 4 and col3:10 , are saved sinners being redeemed, justified and sanctified by the work of the Spirit....
Without the Holy Spirit, a person is not saved.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I am just offering the scriptures to you.
I do believe what these scriptures teach. Now that being said, to grasp it in detail takes time and study.
To keep it as simple as I can....the new man in Ephesians 4 and col3:10 , are saved sinners being redeemed, justified and sanctified by the work of the Spirit....
Without the Holy Spirit, a person is not saved.

With all possible respect, I find the scriptures (including those you cite) to be teaching a different view.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Exactly.....we are predestined to be renewed image bearers, conformed to the image of Jesus.

yes according to Gods will. That whoever believes in him will not perish but has ever lasting life. We are given that right to become children of God through belief in him.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I am just offering the scriptures to you.
I do believe what these scriptures teach. Now that being said, to grasp it in detail takes time and study.
To keep it as simple as I can....the new man in Ephesians 4 and col3:10 , are saved sinners being redeemed, justified and sanctified by the work of the Spirit....
Without the Holy Spirit, a person is not saved.

yes

And how is the spirit given to us?

eph 1.. by hearing the word. and placing our faith in that word. we are sealed. ie the spirit comes into us.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

I already posted about what those verses clearly state. As usual, you are reading it backwards and adding a bunch of baggage from man made religion.

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

It's not complicated. The light is given to who? Everyone. The choice to to receive or not receive him. Belief follows for those who receive followed by a supernatural birth into God's family.

You didn't deal with the text I gave you. As per usual you skip anything that refutes your position and snip it off (this time it is Biblical evidence you are not saved by your will or choosing, which is plainly in the text.) Tell us all in that text that you are saved by willing it and choosing it, contrary to the passage.

You say "believe me, it's not complicated" which is I'm certain meant to derogate my person. But the sad fact is it must be complicated, because you've mishandled it altogether and added things to the passage that are not there.

Your text? "Everyone" is everyone in context, i.e. those who saw him.

It's not mysticism, hence "everyone" does not mean "every single person who existed." That is the context and audience to whom he is referring. This isn't only a basic rudimentary way to deal with Scripture to get to the truth, it is how any person should handle interpreting any historical document. That is how you get to its true meaning.

The text I exegeted for you shows you and all others very clearly it is not of you, "not of the will of man, not of blood, not of man." It cannot be plainer than this. That right there should be enough yet you continue to insert things not in the text.

The fact is this text clearly shows salvation has nothing to do with man's will or choosing. It solemnly proclaims all to God's glory, "but of God" after denying it was of man.

This has not one thing to do with man-made doctrine, it has everything to do with exegeting the text and is clearly what the text is teaching. John 1:13 answers why things happened in John 1:12, it is not going backward and is actually how Jewish and other literature flow. Things get explained as one goes along which is what the text is doing. Much of Scripture does this.

The fact remains that you reject that plain language and do a power grab to give yourself some glory when Scripture utterly refutes your ideology.

Now this:

Where does it say anything in the text you've given "the choice to receive him?"

That's right, it's not in there: you inserted it in there. Ooops!

But I'll give you that opportunity to show us: Go find it and show us where it is so we can all see it. It is as plain as day it isn't in Scripture, it isn't in the text, and that you added it, but perhaps maybe you'll find it. What you did is eisegesis not exegesis.

 

[Dcopymope]

yes

And how is the spirit given to us?

eph 1.. by hearing the word. and placing our faith in that word. we are sealed. ie the spirit comes into us.

(John 6:43-45) "Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. {44} No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. {45} It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

Verse 44 of this chapter is one of the Calvinists favorite verses to cite to bolster their doctrine, yet it falls flat on its face the very next verse. According to them, there is nothing the unbeliever needs to hear first to be saved, but that's not what Jesus says here.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

With all possible respect, I find the scriptures (including those you cite) to be teaching a different view.

Perhaps you could take the time to show us from exegeting the texts what they mean to you.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Verse 44 of this chapter is one of the Calvinists favorite verses to cite to bolster their doctrine, yet it falls flat on its face the very next verse.

John 6:45 enhances our position. Here is the text: "It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—"

The word they is in reference of those whom God saves draws and saves, it is not another topic start, it is not a stand-alone verse in the way you're misusing it. It is the continued flow of thought connected to the previous verse, thus the "all" in reference are the drawn and saved of the previous statement of Christ. All of this is from Isaiah 54 and that text is only to those God has chosen, not to the world at large i.e. "everyone" meaning every single person ever in the world. That is not what it teaches.

But perhaps you're a universalist and think it refers to every single person ever.

According to them, there is nothing the unbeliever needs to hear first to be saved, but that's not what Jesus says here.

The above is completely untrue, no Reformed Calvinist teaches this. We all affirm Romans 10:13 and the preceding verses of Romans 10 concerning "how shall they hear" and "how shall they believe."

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

With all possible respect, to me your view doesn't quite mess with logic or make lot of sense.

sorry you do not see it yet.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

sorry you do not see it yet.

My efforts to understand what *you* believe are hence focused on asking *you*.

 

[Dcopymope]

John 6:45 enhances our position. Here is the text: "It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—"

The word they is in reference of those whom God saves draws and saves, it is not another topic start, it is not a stand-alone verse in the way you're misusing it. It is the continued flow of thought connected to the previous verse, thus the "all" in reference are the drawn and saved of the previous statement of Christ. All of this is from Isaiah 54 and that text is only to those God has chosen, not to the world at large i.e. "everyone" meaning every single person ever in the world. That is not what it teaches.

But perhaps you're a universalist and think it refers to every single person ever.



The above is completely untrue, no Reformed Calvinist teaches this. We all affirm Romans 10:13 and the preceding verses of Romans 10 concerning "how shall they hear" and "how shall they believe."

If I really wanted to quote the scripture out of its context, I would have just posted verse 45 and left it at that, just like you Calvinists always only quote verse 44. The entire statement however makes it very clear on the true beginning stage of getting saved, and it starts with the unbeliever hearing the gospel, not the holy spirit magically drawing all who God chooses purely at his own discretion. In Calvinism, the gospel itself is made null and void, irrelevant. Tell me about heresy.

 

[Renniks]

Your text? "Everyone" is everyone in context, i.e. those who saw him.

That's not what the text says. Now you don't want everyone to mean " everyone" just as you don't want all to mean "all."
You impose your theology on the text instead of just accepting what it says.

 

[Renniks]

You say "believe me, it's not complicated" which is I'm certain meant to derogate my person. But the sad fact is it must be complicated, because you've mishandled it altogether and added things to the passage that are not there.

No, that would be you.

 

[Renniks]

The text I exegeted for you shows you and all others very clearly it is not of you, "not of the will of man, not of blood, not of man." It cannot be plainer than this. That right there should be enough yet you continue to insert things not in the text.

Yes, it says the salvation of believers is God's will. The salvation of non-believers is not God's will. Again, God does all the saving, but he only saves those who are willing. That's exactly what is said. Those who receive and believe God wills to save. You system flip flops it and claims God first saves them, then they believe. Scripture doesn't puts it in this order.

" what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.”

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

Revelation 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me."

Romans 10:9-10 "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."

 

[Preacher4Truth]

If I really wanted to quote the scripture out of its context, I would have just posted verse 45 and left it at that, just like you Calvinists always only quote verse 44. The entire statement however makes it very clear on the true beginning stage of getting saved, and it starts with the unbeliever hearing the gospel, not the holy spirit magically drawing all who God chooses purely at his own discretion. In Calvinism, the gospel itself is made null and void, irrelevant. Tell me about heresy.

Nope, we don't always only quote John 6:44.

Your statement on the Spirit is at best sacrilege and at worst blasphemous and filled with loathing his ministry. It isn't magic, but you've derogated the Spirits work. The Father does draw, and only saves whom he draws.

The passage is clear, the ones in verse 44 are the "they" in John 6:45. That's called following context. You've failed to do it and have only used John 6:45 to pit against the context and Scripture. That is a horrendous treatment of the text.

In Calvinism, the Gospel isn't made null and void, your decisional regeneration doctrine is.

I'd be highly cautious with your mockery of the work of the Spirit as you've done above, something is severely amiss with you.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

No, that would be you.

Again you don't deal with the exegesis provided because you can't, thus you snip it all out and do the thing above.

The reason they were saved, is not because they willed it, not of man, not of blood...but of God. You're fighting against God.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Yes, it says the salvation of believers is God's will. The salvation of non-believers is not God's will. Again, God does all the saving, but he only saves those who are willing. That's exactly what is said...

I'll stop your post right there because there is no sense going forward: You said "but he only saves those who are willing" and "that is exactly what is said."

Nope. Sorry. That is nowhere stated in the text, you're eisegeting, adding to the word what is not there. You cannot help yourself from doing it.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

That's not what the text says. Now you don't want everyone to mean " everyone" just as you don't want all to mean "all."
You impose your theology on the text instead of just accepting what it says.

Because everyone isn't everyone. Have you ever read a Bible through? Not being ugly here, being serious, you are unskilled in the word bro and make multitudes of errors.

They is in the context, it is a continuation of the previous verse. That is called implementing context, so it is what the text is saying. This is why I say you have fortune cookie theology, every verse is a new fortune cookie and disconnected thought. Then on top of that you add to the text.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Here you go again Renniks. You failed to answer, don't brush it under the rug:

"You didn't deal with the text I gave you. As per usual you skip anything that refutes your position and snip it off (this time it is Biblical evidence you are not saved by your will or choosing, which is plainly in the text.) Tell us all in that text that you are saved by willing it and choosing it, contrary to the passage.

You say "believe me, it's not complicated" which is I'm certain meant to derogate my person. But the sad fact is it must be complicated, because you've mishandled it altogether and added things to the passage that are not there.

Your text? "Everyone" is everyone in context, i.e. those who saw him.

It's not mysticism, hence "everyone" does not mean "every single person who existed." That is the context and audience to whom he is referring. This isn't only a basic rudimentary way to deal with Scripture to get to the truth, it is how any person should handle interpreting any historical document. That is how you get to its true meaning.

The text I exegeted for you shows you and all others very clearly it is not of you, "not of the will of man, not of blood, not of man." It cannot be plainer than this. That right there should be enough yet you continue to insert things not in the text.

The fact is this text clearly shows salvation has nothing to do with man's will or choosing. It solemnly proclaims all to God's glory, "but of God" after denying it was of man.

This has not one thing to do with man-made doctrine, it has everything to do with exegeting the text and is clearly what the text is teaching. John 1:13 answers why things happened in John 1:12, it is not going backward and is actually how Jewish and other literature flow. Things get explained as one goes along which is what the text is doing. Much of Scripture does this.

The fact remains that you reject that plain language and do a power grab to give yourself some glory when Scripture utterly refutes your ideology.

Now this:

Where does it say anything in the text you've given "the choice to receive him?"

That's right, it's not in there: you inserted it in there. Ooops!

But I'll give you that opportunity to show us: Go find it and show us where it is so we can all see it. It is as plain as day it isn't in Scripture, it isn't in the text, and that you added it, but perhaps maybe you'll find it. What you did is eisegesis not exegesis."

Answer the above bolded part @Renniks . Show us all where it is in the text, or, be a man, and admit you added it in, it's not there, and own it.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

That's not what the text says. Now you don't want everyone to mean " everyone" just as you don't want all to mean "all."
You impose your theology on the text instead of just accepting what it says.

One more thing: If that text meant every single person, then it's Universalism, and all will be saved. Nothing in the text is about "if everyone" or "if everyone wills or does thus and so."

Nope.

It is "everyone will be taught of God" referring back to the "they" of the context which are those from John 6:44. It is what God does for them, not them choosing God.

That's another error of yours when your ideology is brought to a logical conclusion.

Myriads of mistakes on your part, sir.