Regeneration before or after saving faith

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Rennicks,
I have to say I am disappointed but not surprised by your shallow ignorant responses.
You started well, but now I guess you ran out of ideas and have dragged out all manner of foolish ideas.
Perhaps you are not quite ready for solid biblical interaction..
I will now have to use your posts to warn others of the poor theology which is at its core dishonest as we will see.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Good response.

The name calling of some, with the false accusations ("bully" "your <sic> a liar") "flaming" accusations, being deceitful, disingenuous about ones true beliefs should all end. When some can no longer withstand being challenged they do these callow things then click ignore. Not all, but the shoe fits for at least two.

I'm pretty direct, but we all should be and not take offense. We are to be grown men, stand in the debate and don't hide under "ignore" while still casting stones. That is not manly behavior, or even Christian, the behavior is childish. 1 Corinthians 16:13.

I was trying to help and offer an olive branch of sorts.
I went to a virtual bible study or two, a dinner break and now see this shameful series of responses.
A lack of sound theology followed by the usual caricatures leads to these idiotic posts suggesting child like scoffing.
I blame the leaders of the churches these persons attend who have not equipped them.
They remain willingly ignorant, but perhaps God will reach others who look on.
Now they will say we are rude and arrogant of course when we have to speak at a jr.high level to explain things,lol

 

[Preacher4Truth]

I was trying to help and offer an olive branch of sorts.
I went to a virtual bible study or two, a dinner break and now see this shameful series of responses.
A lack of sound theology followed by the usual caricatures leads to these idiotic posts suggesting child like scoffing.
I blame the leaders of the churches these persons attend who have not equipped them.
They remain willingly ignorant, but perhaps God will reach others who look on.
Now they will say we are rude and arrogant of course when we have to speak at a jr.high level to explain things,lol

I'm glad you were able to get study and fellowship in today. Since our daughter is out of school and I do not want to take her to my job sites, I had to go and get some work in today. Way behind due to several factors here.

It is a sad fact many are not being equipped. Churches fail to preach the entire counsel of God as Paul, Acts 20:17ff. They cannot be found guiltless as he was, but will give an account for withholding truth for the sake of attendance and for the cowardice fear of offending others by speaking the truth.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Renniks,

Wow where to start?

You should have started by reading and learning rather than this series of foolish attacks , caricatures and strawmen.
To those who might read this observe how Rennicks typifies many who remain untaught and stunted in any growth. I blame the pastors of their churches for not properly equipping them.
I will list this series of errors and use Rennicks poor responses to keep others from such error.

The tares are sowed by Satan, but in calvinism, God destined them to do the exact sin they do,

Of course, no biblical Calvinist teaches any such thing. Rennicks and those like him are part of the blame God for man's sin crowd.
Notice he uses a term not found in Calvinist teaching to blame God....
[God destined them to do the exact sin they do,]
This is taught by no responsible Calvinist at any time....but because Rennicks earlier had sort of boasted about his ability to confront Calvinists...he thinks he can just insert this as he cannot answer what was actually posted. Why can he not answer, is because he would have to leave his error and embrace truth which he is not quite able to do at this time

so why would he punish them? Remember, in your scheme, God destined most to be reprobates.

i have never said any such thing.... yet he suggests this to be the case in order to try and win the day. What a fruitless endeavor

The parable makes perfect sense in a world with Free Will and no sense in your deterministic world.

Does Rennicks quote the verses and comment, no... he just dismisses them and substitute a false caricature once again
About that flood, God said he was striving with man, not that he destined most of the world for damnation. [/QUOTE]

Part of the problem Rennicks has with these truths is he evidently does not understand the biblical terminology....." He destined most of the world to damnation"....where do you read that before the floodv Rennicks? I know you do not understand the long suffering of God.

He says he regretted making man, which doesn't fit anywhere into Calvinism.[/QUOTE]

Rennicks now reveals He does not have a clue about the anthropomorphic language used by God.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Renniks,


13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Excellent scripture and so very arminian!

There is not one Arminian verse in the bible

Note there's nothing in there that suggests that God has ordained some to damnation and some for salvation.

The verse was offered to show that God has not only elected His people, but has ordained the means for it to be accomplished..our friend R.....ignores that because he has no response to the fact that the free offer of the gospel is made to all men who come under the sound of the gospel.

Just the opposite, it says clearly that whosoever may come.

So now..R ignores why the verse was offered to try and offer a shallow point not being discussed, lol no wonder people remain confused and not properly instructed.

Again, why bother with preaching the gospel?

Again why do you ask such a stupid question when you just ignored the answer supplied to you?

Here is the exact answer you reject that keeps you in ignorance and has you repeat the same question,

from post 1142;
[hat need is there to be patient with those who can not do anything but what he has already destined them to do?]
God has not only elected the people, but also ordained the means by which he gathers His sheep. Pray preaching and teaching of scripture. Salvation happens in real-time. What God has designed comes to pass exactly as He purposed it.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

I know you can’t see it bro. It’s ok. Jews could not see it eithet

I see it just fine. So fine in fact, I rejoice with the Apostle Paul here;

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Do you hate the fact that the apostles were Calvinists?
Do you hate that God does whatever He pleases?

2 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?

3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

I see it just fine. So fine in fact, I rejoice with the Apostle Paul here;

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Do you hate the fact that the apostles were Calvinists?
Do you hate that God does whatever He pleases?

2 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?

3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

Amen!

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

↑
9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Ezk 34, luke 19, jn 10 were offered


Rennicks response;

Another arminian scripture. No one is ever lost in your system unless God destined them to be lost, so there's no one to seek.[/QUOTE]

There is no Arminian text in the bible once again. If you read the verses offered you might have discovered who God defines as lost. Those texts also reveal who is the good shepherd and who is it He seeks. When you ignore truth, there only remains strawmen and ignorant statements to offer as you have began doing now...foolish posting really.
Ezk34 teaches God Himself is the Good Shepherd.
John 10 we see it is Jesus.
In Ezk34...Good says His sheep are lost, He Himself is going to seek and save HIS SHEEP.
Lk. 10 Jesus confirms He has come to seek and save those very lost sheep.
He did not come to save goats.
He did not come to steal someone else's sheep.
He came to save His own Sheep.

 

[Renniks]

So now the objector was lost? He represents you because you're doing what he does. Are you then still certain he's obviously lost?

I'm not doing what the objector did, that's just your silly accusation. The objector appears in Romans 3 first.
" Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory,why am I still condemned as a sinner?” 8 Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is just!"

The objector is a rebellious Jew. And the same point is made: faith must be the way to God, not mere works.

 

[Renniks]

Show us where in the text God gave in to Moses. That's right, you added that in there and is nowhere to be found. God said he shows mercy to whom he wills.

You just did. He does this for Moses because Moses found favor in his sight, not arbitrarily.

 

[Renniks]

Show us where in the text God gave in to Moses. That's right, you added that in there and is nowhere to be found. God said he shows mercy to whom he wills.

Your problem here is the normal one, not understanding that when non-Calvinists disagree with Calvinism, they are not arguing against God; they are arguing against the Calvinistic understanding of God. The two are very different.

People’s eternal destinies are not the subject of God’s statements in Exodus 33.

4 When the people heard these distressing words, they began to mourn and no one put on any ornaments. 5 For the Lord had said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites, ‘You are a stiff-necked people. If I were to go with you even for a moment, I might destroy you. Now take off your ornaments and I will decide what to do with you.’...
12 Moses said to the Lord, “You have been telling me, ‘Lead these people,’ but you have not let me know whom you will send with me. You have said, ‘I know you by name and you have found favor with me.’ 13 If you are pleased with me, teach me your ways so I may know you and continue to find favor with you. Remember that this nation is your people.”

14 The Lord replied, “My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.”

15 Then Moses said to him, “If your Presence does not go with us, do not send us up from here. 16 How will anyone know that you are pleased with me and with your people unless you go with us? What else will distinguish me and your people from all the other people on the face of the earth?”

17 And the Lord said to Moses, “I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.”


God has become frustrated with the sinful and rebellious ways of His people, Israel. While Moses is on Mount Sinai with God, the people have made for themselves a golden calf to worship (Exodus 32:1-6). This event sets off a debate between God and Moses about what God should do to the people of Israel in response to their idolatry.

Moses returns the people of Israel, and rebukes them for their behavior (Exodus 32:15-29). They repent, and so Moses returns to speak with God and plead with Him to forgive the people (Exodus 32:30-32). God says He will forgive them, but that He will not go with them to the Promised Land because His holiness would consume them in their sin (Exodus 32:33–33:6).

Moses, however, continued to intercede with God for the people of Israel. He tells God that if God does not go with them to the Promised Land, then they should not go at all (Exodus 33:12-16). Finally, God agrees to go with the Israelites to the Promised Land, as Moses has requested (Exodus 33:17).

It is extremely ironic that a verse which Calvinists use to tell people not to disagree with God is found in a context in which Moses is doing exactly that.

Yes, God exerts His right to be gracious and compassionate to whom He wants, but He is not talking about determining people’s eternal destinies; He is talking His right to bestow blessings and favor upon certain people for certain reasons. In this case, God decided, as a result of His friendship with Moses, to bless Moses with a special revelation of Himself.


"The whole context of these words, then, is not one of some despotic puppeteer, who predetermines everything and applies “might is right” principles. It is of a loving personal God, interacting with and answering the prayer of a person in faith-relationship with him, but reminding the person that God knows best how and to whom to distribute blessing." (Marston and Forster, God’s Strategy in Human History, 60).


Exodus 33:19 does not teach us that we should not question God’s actions because “God is God and He can do what He wants.”

Far from it! Exodus 33:19 teaches exactly the opposite. It is stated at the end of a very long debate between God and Moses about God’s plans for the people of Israel. At the end of this discussion, God shows Moses that He has no desire to kill and destroy His people, for His character is centered on mercy and compassion.

 

[Renniks]

Rennicks,
I have to say I am disappointed but not surprised by your shallow ignorant responses.
You started well, but now I guess you ran out of ideas and have dragged out all manner of foolish ideas.
Perhaps you are not quite ready for solid biblical interaction..
I will now have to use your posts to warn others of the poor theology which is at its core dishonest as we will see.

Oh, thank you, oh great one, I bow before your superior wisdom! Good Grief.

 

[Renniks]

I was trying to help and offer an olive branch of sorts.
I went to a virtual bible study or two, a dinner break and now see this shameful series of responses.
A lack of sound theology followed by the usual caricatures leads to these idiotic posts suggesting child like scoffing.
I blame the leaders of the churches these persons attend who have not equipped them.
They remain willingly ignorant, but perhaps God will reach others who look on.
Now they will say we are rude and arrogant of course when we have to speak at a jr.high level to explain things,lol

More flaming and bashing, as per usual.

 

[Renniks]

God has not only elected the people, but also ordained the means by which he gathers His sheep. Pray preaching and teaching of scripture. Salvation happens in real-time. What God has designed comes to pass exactly as He purposed it.

Notice how you selectively choose words to deny the full implications of Calvinism. "What God has designed comes to pass exactly as he purposed it."
Sure it does! Amen! God can do what he wants, no arminian disagrees. But, that's not what your theology says. It doesn't stop there, but says God purposed everything by his decree. Not just that what God decides to do comes to pass, that's obvious. God decides to create and he does. He decides to destroy almost everyone in a flood and he does in response to their wickedness, which he did not purpose and in fact, he says he regrets creating them because of their actions. In the same way, he says that when his people sacrificed their children to idols, it never entered his mind that they would do such a thing.

Jeremiah 19:4 They have burned incense in it to other gods that neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah have ever known. They have filled this place with the blood of the innocent. 5They have built high places to Baal on which to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal— something I never commanded or mentioned, nor did it ever enter My mind.

God is not the god of determinism. He's not Aristotle's unmoved mover.

 

[Waiting on him]

More flaming and bashing, as per usual.

It's very telling, what spirit is in control.

 

[Waiting on him]

It's pretty evident that the Calvinist were spawn from the Roman Catholic Church, my question is was it only aristocrats that wore wigs, or did the Bishops of Rome also?

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Oh, thank you, oh great one, I bow before your superior wisdom! Good Grief.

More flaming and bashing, as per usual.

As I said, it could have gone one of two ways...we see you are void of understanding....not a problem, tomorrow is another day. Describing your posting as it is is not flaming or goading. Your sad posts do it all by themself.
We notice you cannot respond to the biblical portions offered, so you try and deflect and accuse...lol.
I knew you had no response, but I was hoping you would work through the verses.
Not quite up to it ...lol I understand.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

It's very telling, what spirit is in control.

What do you mean?

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

"Renniks

Notice how you selectively choose words to deny the full implications of Calvinism. "What God has designed comes to pass exactly as he purposed it."
Sure it does! Amen! God can do what he wants, no arminian disagrees. But, that's not what your theology says. It doesn't stop there, but says God purposed everything by his decree. Not just that what God decides to do comes to pass, that's obvious. God decides to create and he does. He decides to destroy almost everyone in a flood and he does in response to their wickedness, which he did not purpose and in fact, he says he regrets creating them because of their actions. In the same way, he says that when his people sacrificed their children to idols, it never entered his mind that they would do such a thing.

Jeremiah 19:4 They have burned incense in it to other gods that neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah have ever known. They have filled this place with the blood of the innocent. 5They have built high places to Baal on which to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal— something I never commanded or mentioned, nor did it ever enter My mind.

God is not the god of determinism. He's not Aristotle's unmoved mover.[/QUOTE]

 

[Waiting on him]

What do you mean?

Arrogance is not listed anywhere in scripture as a gift of the Holy Spirit.... As a matter of fact scripture states He only says what He here's of the Father yet you all look to dead men to inform you of what you believe,,,,,,,,,this is sad,,,,,,,,,,.