Regeneration before or after saving faith

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

How anyone can read this or say this and not see how they are puffing certain select group of people as better than others is beyond me

in fact, read the OT, and the beginning of the NT, does it not sound like the jews who said only THEY were elect and gentiles were lost and deserved what they Got?

Hello EG,

You are not taking it the right way. What I mean is this; When God reveals His eternal purpose to the Church like we read here; Eph 3
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

If God has revealed this which starting in Eph1 :3-11...includes election and predestination, we sin if we do not rejoice and proclaim these truths.
God has not given us a list of individual names, but He does not have to. We are to proclaim the teaching to all men.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

"Renniks,

Exactly, he's not willing that any person on the face on the earth perish but all to come to repentance.

Nothing I posted should give you this impression.
God is very willing that multitudes perish.
God will send the Angels to gather out all things that offend. The angels are the reapers.
mt13
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Multitudes will perish as Jesus rules as their Judge.

In your false posting, you suggest Jesus can stand by as a spectator and wish man would save himself, but He cannot save any man all by Himself...Not good news, and not taught in 2 pet 3...The long-suffering of God in the day of Noah only resulted in 8 souls being saved,
The long-suffering of God in our day will result in multitudes being saved.

If you believe some are already guaranteed and destined for salvation, it makes no sense whatsoever.

Good question Rennicks....We believe Jesus died a Covenant death for a great multitude of sinners given to Him by the Father. If you are a Christian you have to believe this also, because it is clearly revealed in the bible in Jn6:37,[all that the Father gives shall come}
Heb2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Anyone not given to Jesus will not be in heaven...not one

What need is there to be patient with those who can not do anything but what he has already destined them to do?

God has not only elected the people, but also ordained the means by which he gathers His sheep. Pray preaching and teaching of scripture. Salvation happens in real-time. What God has designed comes to pass exactly as He purposed it.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Remember, everything in your system happens because of his decree, so there is no chance of an "elect" person ever ending up in hell. He is guaranteeing that each sheep be saved?

It is God's system revealed in scripture; Ezk34,Jn10,Lk19

9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

In your system, that is already done, and each person destined to be lost has no chance of ever being in the group named "elect".

In God's system, hose elected are already certain from the Divine standpoint, the elect are not a club that you join , ike planet fitness. They are individuals that the Father in infinite wisdom gave to the Son. The Son seeks and saves them, He is not willing [boulomai] that any of them perish.

If that was the case, he could just skip the whole dying on the cross thing

Be careful Rennicks with such a casual remark. We are posting about an infinitely holy and wise God, who in wisdom designed the whole sacrificial system to illustrate His wisdom in sending His Son.
When Peter suggested Jesus by pass the cross, Jesus rebuked Satan...do you recall?

and create some people for himself in heaven and create some others to cast into hell. Why go through the whole sham if there is no real battle, not real choice. It's pointless.[/QUOTE]

The choice was by Adam to sin and rebel. Adam and Eve produced sinners.God saves sinners, is not pointless, but rather great mercy.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Oh, good grief. The man is not evil because he disagrees with your interpretation. He's not a heretic because he rejects Calvinism.

As a person he is quite pleasant. It is not an attack on his personality. What is evil is his misguided attempt to take every verse and wrest it as 2pet3 warns about.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

I AND THE OTHER MEN ON THIS FORUM HAVE PERSONALLY INTERACTED WITH Leighton ON A DAILY BASIS FOR SEVERAL YEARS ON BAPTISTBOARD. LOOK IN THE ARCHIVES.....
Leighton WENT UNDER THE NAME SKANDELON.....I WAS ICONOCLAST...

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Agree with what? That there are wicked and righteous? Of course, but the problem is, you read the whole passage through your "irresistibly chosen or irresistibly damned" lenses. As I said before, these are not irreversible categories. If they were, why does Paul have to keep encouraging us to live a certain way? Why does he say that God isn't willing that any should perish? The currently righteous are not perishing, so they aren't the ones in danger. In fact, in your system, they can no more perish than a turtle can flap his wings and fly to London. So, what is God being patient about? If every individual is pre chosen for one category or the other, most of the Bible is pointless.

2 Peter 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 "This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:"

sw3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;
but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things,
be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

You said:
"Notice it goes back and forth contrasting between the beloved elect, and the wicked....you said it does not divide between two groups??? care to look again?"

Ok, I looked again and I'll tell you what I see. The whole reason that Paul is contrasting two types of people is to teach those who are currently godly how to remain godly and to teach them that God wants to bring all into the kingdom. Why are we to be mindful of God's mercy and long suffering? So, that we may be merciful and long suffering also, towards everyone. So, that those who are now willfully ignorant may see that we have something worth possessing and may be won over.
And so that we may be careful not be led away into being wicked ourselves and fall away from the living God. There is heaven to gain and hell to shun, as Wesley would say. Far from the deterministic closed system where everyone is locked into being what they currently are, there is a real battle going on here between good and evil and all people are caught up in it, whether they know it or not.

Rennicks, I am thankful for your responses both when we agree , and also when we do not agree.
If I can get you to see accurately what I and others believe, the rest of it is between you and God.
I cannot enable your belief. God alone allows truth to be welcomed. If I am in error, obviously God will not use it to help anyone.
If some of the teachings sounds hard, I understand that many struggle with it.
i am thankful that we are now properly interacting despite the fact we are not quite on the same page as yet. I would encourage you and any reader to serve God with what truth you have, until such time as God allows refining or growth in grace. I do not win a prize as if we are two knights on horses jousting with those long spears. I can only try and remove obstacles and help.
I do not have thin skin Rennicks, EG, and others.....so you can say most anything or object most strenuously, I would just ask that you be sincere and truthful, and do not bear false witness as I have seen lying supposed Christian Moderators stoop to such a disgustingly low level to undermine Calvinistic Christians.
Agree or disagree, but that ungodly low life behaviour has no place on a christian forum.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Renniks,

On the contrary, your theology puts all blame for every wicked deed directly on God.
"God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass.."

Now Rennicks, I just posted that we are having a good interaction but now I must ask, why you feel the need or pressure to quote half a statement similar to what satan did to Jesus in Lk4?
I offered you the link to the 1689 and asked that you read each carefully worded statement slowly as the men took time to be accurate...so why do you quote half the thought and blame God, when the men who wrote the confession did not do so....you accused us in the bolded portion above, but here is what the actual statement reads;
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;

yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;

nor is violence offered to the will of the creature,

nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5

Rennicks...by cutting the statement in half you turn the truth into a lie. Is that your intention?
How do you expect to improve your knowledge if you cut off that which would help you?

And I did not reject Calvinism because of Flowers. I rejected it before I had ever heard on the man, because I became exposed to it in a church and begin to see it for what it was, fatalism wrapped in out of context verses.[/QUOTE]

Every Calvinist rejects fatalism as a false system of belief found in islam...this is a red herring as they say.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Rennicks, I am thankful for your responses both when we agree , and also when we do not agree.
If I can get you to see accurately what I and others believe, the rest of it is between you and God.
I cannot enable your belief. God alone allows truth to be welcomed. If I am in error, obviously God will not use it to help anyone.
If some of the teachings sounds hard, I understand that many struggle with it.
i am thankful that we are now properly interacting despite the fact we are not quite on the same page as yet. I would encourage you and any reader to serve God with what truth you have, until such time as God allows refining or growth in grace. I do not win a prize as if we are two knights on horses jousting with those long spears. I can only try and remove obstacles and help.
I do not have thin skin Rennicks, EG, and others.....so you can say most anything or object most strenuously, I would just ask that you be sincere and truthful, and do not bear false witness as I have seen lying supposed Christian Moderators stoop to such a disgustingly low level to undermine Calvinistic Christians.
Agree or disagree, but that ungodly low life behaviour has no place on a christian forum.

Good response.

The name calling of some, with the false accusations ("bully" "your <sic> a liar") "flaming" accusations, being deceitful, disingenuous about ones true beliefs should all end. When some can no longer withstand being challenged they do these callow things then click ignore. Not all, but the shoe fits for at least two.

I'm pretty direct, but we all should be and not take offense. We are to be grown men, stand in the debate and not hide under "ignore" while still casting stones at those we've put on ignore, publicly. That is not manly behavior, or even Christian, the behavior is childish. 1 Corinthians 16:13.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Renniks,




Now Rennicks, I just posted that we are having a good interaction but now I must ask, why you feel the need or pressure to quote half a statement similar to what satan did to Jesus in Lk4?
I offered you the link to the 1689 and asked that you read each carefully worded statement slowly as the men took time to be accurate...so why do you quote half the thought and blame God, when the men who wrote the confession did not do so....you accused us in the bolded portion above, but here is what the actual statement reads;
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;

yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;

nor is violence offered to the will of the creature,

nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5

Rennicks...by cutting the statement in half you turn the truth into a lie. Is that your intention?
How do you expect to improve your knowledge if you cut off that which would help you?

Also, yes, these truths seem hard for some yet when certain passages and doctrines are left off to not offend in many churches we see the result.

I know a pastor here in town who will not let anyone preach from Jude, or other like passages to his people. He cannot say as Paul did in Acts 20:17-27 that he did not fail to preach the entire counsel of God and is guiltless. This pastor has practiced cowardice, is not guiltless, and will stand and give an account before God. He also casts people out of his church like a modern day Diotrephes as 3 John describes.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Hello EG,

You are not taking it the right way. What I mean is this; When God reveals His eternal purpose to the Church like we read here; Eph 3
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

If God has revealed this which starting in Eph1 :3-11...includes election and predestination, we sin if we do not rejoice and proclaim these truths.
God has not given us a list of individual names, but He does not have to. We are to proclaim the teaching to all men.

I know you can’t see it bro. It’s ok. Jews could not see it eithet

 

[Preacher4Truth]

How anyone can read this or say this and not see how they are puffing certain select group of people as better than others is beyond me

in fact, read the OT, and the beginning of the NT, does it not sound like the jews who said only THEY were elect and gentiles were lost and deserved what they Got?

The above is false and misplaced. Being elect isn't about persons believing they are better than others. Why? Because it is "the election of grace" Romans 11:5 and "grace" is unmerited favor, undeserved favor.

On the other hand those who teach they were elected due to what they did; i.e. preparing their hearts, choosing, deciding, willing, is not only not grace, but boasting of the effort of the person as better than others.

The above post is then in grave error. A thorough reading and comprehending of 1 Corinthians 1:26-31 is in order for @Eternally Grateful.

No elect person sees themselves as deserving of election or grace and better than others (note 1 Timothy 1:15-16 as a prime example and pattern of this truth) like free willers because they "chose." No, no, we rather realize clearly it was all of grace and we had no act we can point to as they do as to why he saved us. They point to what they did to cause it, we look only to God who did it in spite of us.

It all boils down to this as both for the most part believe they are elected. So it is about "Why they were elected?" The Calvinist knows they were elected based upon nothing good in them, by nothing they've done. The other side believe they were elected because of something good they did, and they've taught this very thing in this thread and in this forum.

 

[Renniks]

"Renniks,


Nothing I posted should give you this impression.
God is very willing that multitudes perish.
God will send the Angels to gather out all things that offend. The angels are the reapers.
mt13
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Multitudes will perish as Jesus rules as their Judge.

In your false posting, you suggest Jesus can stand by as a spectator and wish man would save himself, but He cannot save any man all by Himself...Not good news, and not taught in 2 pet 3...The long-suffering of God in the day of Noah only resulted in 8 souls being saved,
The long-suffering of God in our day will result in multitudes being saved.



Good question Rennicks....We believe Jesus died a Covenant death for a great multitude of sinners given to Him by the Father. If you are a Christian you have to believe this also, because it is clearly revealed in the bible in Jn6:37,[all that the Father gives shall come}
Heb2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Anyone not given to Jesus will not be in heaven...not one



You . Pray preaching and teaching of scripture. Salvation happens in real-time. What God has designed comes to pass exactly as He purposed it.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

It is God's system revealed in scripture; Ezk34,Jn10,Lk19

9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.


In God's system, hose elected are already certain from the Divine standpoint, the elect are not a club that you join , ike planet fitness. They are individuals that the Father in infinite wisdom gave to the Son. The Son seeks and saves them, He is not willing [boulomai] that any of them perish.


Be careful Rennicks with such a casual remark. We are posting about an infinitely holy and wise God, who in wisdom designed the whole sacrificial system to illustrate His wisdom in sending His Son.
When Peter suggested Jesus by pass the cross, Jesus rebuked Satan...do you recall?

Wow where to start? The tares are sowed by Satan, but in calvinism, God destined them to do the exact sin they do, so why would he punish them? Remember, in your scheme, God destined most to be reprobates.

The parable makes perfect sense in a world with Free Will and no sense in your deterministic world.

About that flood, God said he was striving with man, not that he destined most of the world for damnation. He says he regretted making man, which doesn't fit anywhere into calvinism. More in a moment, phone is too slow

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Wow where to start? The tares are sowed by Satan, but in calvinism, God destined them to do the exact sin they do, so why would he punish them? Remember, in your scheme, God destined most to be reprobates.

This is the exact thing the Romans 9:19-20 man complained about. "Since no one can resist his will, why does he still find fault!?" You're doing this yourself.

 

[Renniks]

God has not only elected the people, but also ordained the means by which he gathers His sheep. Pray preaching and teaching of scripture. Salvation happens in real-time. What God has designed comes to pass exactly as He purposed it.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Excellent scripture and so very arminian! Note there's nothing in there that suggests that God has ordained some to damnation and some for salvation. Just the opposite, it says clearly that whosoever may come. Again, why bother with preaching the gospel? All your "elect" are irresistibly chosen from before birth. They aren't capable of ever being truly lost. But they have not all obeyed the gospel puts the blame solely on man and not at all on God. Now, I know, you want to have your cake and eat it too, but for the larger percentage of us that take the scripture for what it actually says, this is a huge contradiction. Of course, some hyper calvinists have taken it that far, saying if God wants to convert the heathens, he will do it without our help.

9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Another arminian scripture. No one is ever lost in your system unless God destined them to be lost, so there's no one to seek.

In God's system, hose elected are already certain from the Divine standpoint, the elect are not a club that you join , ike planet fitness. They are individuals that the Father in infinite wisdom gave to the Son. The Son seeks and saves them, He is not willing [boulomai] that any of them perish.

The Hebrew word for "elect" (bahir) is normally used in the plural, and thus refers collectively of Israel. While there are times in Scripture where God chooses individuals for a specific historical task or purpose (e.g. Cyrus in Isaiah 45:1), these are passages that have nothing to do with God deciding who will be saved, thus, they are of no relevance to this topic.
Election is Christocentric, i.e., election of humans occurs only in union with Jesus Christ. “He chose us in him” Eph. 1:4 Jesus himself is first of all the elect of God. Mt 12:18; cf. Isa 42:1, 6; 1 Pet 2:4
Election is “in him…through his blood” Eph 1:7. God purposed before creation Eph. 1:4 to form a people through Christ’s redemptive death on the cross.
Election in Christ is primarily corporate, i.e., an election of a people Eph 1:4-5, 7, 9.
The elect are called “the body of Christ” 4:12, “my church” Mt 16:18, “a people belonging to God” 1 Pe 2:9, and the “bride” of Christ Rev 19:7. Therefore, election is corporate and embraces individual persons only as they identify and associate themselves with the body of Christ, the true church.
Election to salvation in Christ is offered to all Jn 3:16-17; 1Ti 2:4-6; Tit 2:11; Heb 2:9 but becomes actual for particular persons contingent on their repentance and faith as they accept God’s gift of salvation in Christ Eph 2:8; 3:17; cf. Ac 20:21; Ro 1:16; 4:16.

You said: "The choice was by Adam to sin and rebel. Adam and Eve produced sinners.God saves sinners, is not pointless, but rather great mercy."

But we have already been told by Calvinists multiple times on this thread that God ordained the fall of man. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Renniks]

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Pretty sure that's a reference to people who use Paul's writings to teach Gnosticism, which Calvinism is in many regards.

 

[Renniks]

Renniks,




Now Rennicks, I just posted that we are having a good interaction but now I must ask, why you feel the need or pressure to quote half a statement similar to what satan did to Jesus in Lk4?
I offered you the link to the 1689 and asked that you read each carefully worded statement slowly as the men took time to be accurate...so why do you quote half the thought and blame God, when the men who wrote the confession did not do so....you accused us in the bolded portion above, but here is what the actual statement reads;
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;

yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;

nor is violence offered to the will of the creature,

nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5

Rennicks...by cutting the statement in half you turn the truth into a lie. Is that your intention?
How do you expect to improve your knowledge if you cut off that which would help you?

Quoting the whole thing doesn't change a thing when it means the same thing. It's an obvious contradiction wrapped up in fancy words.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Pretty sure that's a reference to people who use Paul's writings to teach Gnosticism, which Calvinism is in many regards.

The text isn't about anything akin to what you allege, that's a desperate appeal on your part, nothing in the text even suggests such a thing.

Exegeting Scripture as Calvinists do is hardly Gnosticism, but that's another desperate and unfounded move on your part.

 

[Renniks]

This is the exact thing the Romans 9:19-20 man complained about. "Since no one can resist his will, why does he still find fault!?" You're doing this yourself.

Ah, but the objector was dead wrong and most do resist his will, as Paul confirmed when he says the objector talked back to God. We don't live in a world where God's will is always done. If we did, we would already be in heaven.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Ah, but the objector was dead wrong and most do resist his will, as Paul confirmed when he says the objector talked back to God. We don't live in a world where God's will is always done. If we did, we would already be in heaven.

Not even close. Zero exegetes nor commentators say this about the text because it simply isn't making your argument.

You don't understand what the protestor was saying. He was admitting none can resist what God has willed in not showing mercy to some, and then objected that God could and does still find fault. You're doing the same thing yourself.

It has nothing to do with the lost rebelling against God as you say, that is nowhere in the context.

 

[Renniks]

It has nothing to do with the lost rebelling against God as you say, that is nowhere in the context.

Seeing as how the objector was obviously lost and rebelling against God, how do you figure that?

Overall context: God shows mercy and judgment as he thinks proper, and none have a right to find fault with his proceedings, correct, however: The question is what it is saying about how God shows mercy. This is where we part ways. I expect that when Paul quotes the Torah he is expecting the reader to know what the Torah reveals about God's and his mercy.
And in the case of Moses, God gives in and has mercy because of his friendship with Moses, see Exodus.
And in the case of the Potter, God makes it clear his mercy is not arbitrary, but in response to how people respond to him. See Jeremiah 18.

 

[Dcopymope]

Seeing as how the objector was obviously lost and rebelling against God, how do you figure that?

Overall context: God shows mercy and judgment as he thinks proper, and none have a right to find fault with his proceedings, correct, however: The question is what it is saying about how God shows mercy. This is where we part ways. I expect that when Paul quotes the Torah he is expecting the reader to know what the Torah reveals about God's and his mercy.
And in the case of Moses, God gives in and has mercy because of his friendship with Moses, see Exodus.
And in the case of the Potter, God makes it clear his mercy is not arbitrary, but in response to how people respond to him. See Jeremiah 18.

The calvinist "God": If I want those chumps to saved, I'll do it.........but oh please do spread the gospel unto the ends of the world.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Seeing as how the objector was obviously lost and rebelling against God, how do you figure that?

So now the objector was lost? He represents you because you're doing what he does. Are you then still certain he's obviously lost?

Overall context: God shows mercy and judgment as he thinks proper, and none have a right to find fault with his proceedings, correct, however:

You're correct then go off the rails here:

The question is what it is saying about how God shows mercy.

Overall context shows he does this to whom he wills, but you want to adjust that and make it up to you below:

This is where we part ways.

This is where you leave Scripture and where I remain in it:

I expect that when Paul quotes the Torah he is expecting the reader to know what the Torah reveals about God's and his mercy.

It's in Exodus 33:17ff. In it he shows mercy to whom he wills. This is the same will the objector knows cannot be resisted in Romans 9 and that is the fact God wills to show mercy on whomsoever he desires. It has nothing to do with man being capable of being rebellious to God, he is not arguing, as you say, that man can't resist Gods will by being rebellious, and that God is saying "Oh yes, man can rebel against me!" That isn't the context at all.

And in the case of Moses, God gives in and has mercy because of his friendship with Moses, see Exodus.

Show us where in the text God gave in to Moses. That's right, you added that in there and is nowhere to be found. God said he shows mercy to whom he wills.

And in the case of the Potter, God makes it clear his mercy is not arbitrary, but in response to how people respond to him. See Jeremiah 18.

Yes, his mercy is not arbitrary, it is according to his purpose, counsel, and will, not according to mans will. But that is concerning eternal salvation which is our subject.

You're making the text say if nations do turn from evil, then he gives that nation eternal life, if they don't they go to hell. So where would those nations go if no offer were extended?

Tell me again what you did so God would elect you?