Relationship Between Israel and the Church

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Dave L

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For me, bottom line, 1 Corinthians 10.32 makes me a dispensationalist: plus a lot of other factors do, also.
“Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:” (1 Corinthians 10:32) (KJV 1900)

= unbelieving Jews, unbelieving gentiles, believing Jews and believing gentiles, the Church.

Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross making it impossible for any to become a physical biblical Jew ever again. But many were in Paul's audience who were still biblical Jews having been circumcised before Calvary.
 

bbyrd009

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it was not the case that Christians from a Gentile background were simply added to a Jewish body politic
Hmm. Possibly bc there likely were no or very few "Christians" that were not formerly Jews in the early Church, but imo for the most part early Christians were Jewish, and a part of the body politic. So I'm agreeing iow, sort of
 

Trekson

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I would, however, see Pentecost (Acts 2) as when the church started, when the Spirit came to indwell His people in Christ taken out of both Judaism and Gentiles.

I think you are misunderstanding that verse, (1 cor. 10:32) it is not a division as a precise rule not to be understood. God uni8tes he doesn't divide. There is no jew or greek in God's eyes we are all the same. God is notm a respecter of persons. I would say the church started in Matt. 10. God knew what his plan was concerning the gentiles since the beginning.
 
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Trekson

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I don't think we can retrospectively read New Testament concepts from after the Cross, Resurrection, Ascension and Pentecost, into word usage in the Old Testament.

You're right regarding word usage, however they were all foretold through the feasts of Israel.
 

1stCenturyLady

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Romans 11 shows us the key. Jesus is the root. Many in Israel were partially blinded because they didn't accept their Messiah. The gospel went to the Gentiles UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles come into the church, at which time no more Gentiles will be saved, and Israel will be able to see again. Then only Jews will come into the church and the church, spiritual Israel, will be saved - One New Man.

The Church is not Gentile, it is both.
 
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Enoch111

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I agree with the first part but the 144,000 will be on earth.
The 144,000 are shown to us as being "before the throne of God" which is in Heaven. They are "redeemed from the earth" which means they will no longer be on earth.

And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth... And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. (Rev 14:3,5)

Are you aware that there is no scripture that calls the church the Bride of Christ?
You have certainly missed reading the Scriptures which say that the Church is indeed the Bride of Christ. I will leave you to do some further research and confirm this.
 

Trekson

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You have certainly missed reading the Scriptures which say that the Church is indeed the Bride of Christ. I will leave you to do some further research and confirm this.

I've done the research there are none that make a plain statement.
 

Enoch111

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I've done the research there are none that make a plain statement.
Fortunately, the Bible is not a book of Systematic Theology. So those who have eyes to see will see, and others will be blinded to the truth.
 

Jay Ross

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Romans 11 shows us the key. Jesus is the root. Many in Israel were partially blinded because they didn't accept their Messiah. The gospel went to the Gentiles UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles come into the church, at which time no more Gentiles will be saved, and Israel will be able to see again. Then only Jews will come into the church and the church, spiritual Israel, will be saved - One New Man.

The Church is not Gentile, it is both.

Here in lies the problem about the understanding of the words that Paul used in Rom. 11:25-26.

The understanding should be, All of Israel will be saved after the fullness in time of the heathen Gentiles trampling the sanctuary of God for 2,300 years has run its full course. When all of Israel is saved, God will then make like new again his Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation and His Possession among the Nations Covenant which Israel rejected within 40 days of entering into this same Covenant at Mt Sinai, by rebelling against the covenant and making idols to worship.

In Ez. 34 God has promised that He, Himself, will gather His sheep that have been scattered throughout the nations to Himself and that He will plant them into fertile soil and that He will teach them about the things concerning the Kingdom of God, i.e. about the mountains of Israel, so that they can be His Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nations and His Possession among the Nations once more.

The translation provided above is typical of the replacement theology that is prevalent within the churches today and is heathen in nature and is the last attempt by the heathen Gentiles to trample the Sanctuary of God leading up to when God will Judge the Gentile Nations and their Armies.

We need to receive and understand God's Actual Salvation Covenant for all of Mankind first. God's promise is that He, God, will love all of those who Love Him and Keep His Statutes in a loving relationship with Him. How many on this forum are in a Loving Relationship with God and actually are Keeping His Statutes. Many claim that they have the true understanding of God, but they are fat and trample the pasture and muddy the waters that all are presently drinking from. God will judge these fat sheep and will tend to the needs of the lean sheep.

Perhaps we all need to go back to the very beginning for our understanding for this present time.

Shalom
 

Naomi25

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Sometimes the identities of the church and Israel get misconstrued which can lead to false conclusions based on wrongful assumptions. There are two Israels in scripture. There is of course the physical nation of Israel and there is a spiritual Israel which is founded in faith and with the Abrahamic covenant. Gentile Christian believers, upon salvation, become a part of this spiritual Israel. God made several covenants with the nation of Israel. Some, the church inherits by faith, others remain for just the nation of Israel. All the spiritual promises God made to Israel were fulfilled at Christ’s first coming. (ex. Acts 2:17-21) We inherit these promises the same way Abraham did in Gen. 15:6 through our faith and belief in our Redeemer and upon the righteousness of Christ we receive by faith at salvation.

Many people see the church becoming Israel in Romans 11 but I contend the opposite is true. This shows the separation of the two and reveals the destiny of the physical nation of Israel that will once again be based on their future understanding and utilizing the same faith that Abraham exhibited. Let’s look closer at Rom. 11.

There are two groups shown here, the wild olive shoots that are grafted into the cultivated tree (aka, the church) and the natural branches (Israel). Because of disobedience and lack of faith the natural branches were cut off so that we could be grafted in because of our faith and obedience. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, this grafting process will cease (vs.25) and Christ will restore the natural branches to their rightful place (vs.24). The word “all” in vs.26 doesn’t necessarily mean the whole nation, but that at some point, all that will be left of Israel that enters into the millennium will be saved. Where will this group come from? I believe they will be the 144,000 and the rest of the woman (believing Israel) who goes into hiding for 3 ½ yrs., Rev. 12:14. Where will they come from? I believe that the Holy Spirit will open the eyes of His chosen (Zech. 12:10) at the abomination of desolation in the midst (not necessarily the exact middle) of the 70th week.

While we enter into the tree by faith as Abraham, that only entitles us to the spiritual promises, which are more than enough. However, the land promises given to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and further explained in the latter chapters of Ezekial, remain for the saved, human Jewish remnant that enters the millennium, not the church because the earth is not our home, our home is in heaven with God until the NJ arrives.

I do not believe in the typical dispensationalism of pre-tribbers, however, in this one instance, the land inheritance of the nation of Israel, I do see a dispensation. Dispensationalists, as a rule, see a permanent separation between the church and Israel. I do not. I believe God’s plan is for an ultimate total unity between both parties and this is where I believe the future wedding has greater meaning.

I think Romans 9-11 is pivitol in discussing the relationship between the Church/Israel/Christ, true, although I am not sure I quite agree with your outcomes entirely.

My biggest question, I suppose, from your OP, is your starting premise that there is two separate promises to spiritual Israel and national Israel. Can you, perhaps, give scriptures showing these separate entities and promises, both in the OT and following through into the NT?
 

farouk

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I think Romans 9-11 is pivitol in discussing the relationship between the Church/Israel/Christ, true, although I am not sure I quite agree with your outcomes entirely.

My biggest question, I suppose, from your OP, is your starting premise that there is two separate promises to spiritual Israel and national Israel. Can you, perhaps, give scriptures showing these separate entities and promises, both in the OT and following through into the NT?
For myself, Scripture indicates that Israel is Israel and the church is the church.
 

Naomi25

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For myself, Scripture indicates that Israel is Israel and the church is the church.


Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. -Galatians 3:16

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. -Romans 9:6–8

And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. -Galatians 3:29

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. -Romans 11:17–18

But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for
in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. -Galatians 3:25–28

What this is telling us is profound. When God made his covenant promises to Abraham to bless all the nations through him, via his seed, he was promising Christ. Israel...the truly elect Israel, the Israel of promise...believing Israel, the one who believed, and it was credited to them "as righteousness", was not "all Israel, Paul tells us. He tells us that not "all who are decended from Israel belong to Israel". We know in Elijah's time that God kept for himself an elect number of only 7000 'Israel'. But eventually, this true Israel brought forth the Christ. And "In Christ", we become "children of the promise". If we are Christians, then we too are counted as Abrahams offspring, as Israel.
This does not knock Israel off her perch and replace her. The Israel God and Paul is talking about, the elect Israel that he has guarded jealously have had numerous 'gentile' believers grafted in, just as, due to unbelief, it has had Jewish unbelievers broken off. All based on one main unity...Christ, and our relationship to him...the root.
The good news here is that Romans 11 seems to suggest that great numbers of national, unbelieving Israel will be drawn to Christ, being grafted back into the root. That's pretty amazing right there!
 
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Trekson

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Fortunately, the Bible is not a book of Systematic Theology. So those who have eyes to see will see, and others will be blinded to the truth.

Or it could be a case of the church thinking more highly of itself than it ought to think.
 
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Trekson

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My biggest question, I suppose, from your OP, is your starting premise that there is two separate promises to spiritual Israel and national Israel. Can you, perhaps, give scriptures showing these separate entities and promises, both in the OT and following through into the NT?

Hi Naomi, I can't say that in the OT there is a specific group called spiritual Israel, they should be considered the "remnant" as in the 7000 of Elijah's time, those who kept their righteous relationship w/ God regardless of what the nation as a whole was doing. All the prophecies of Christ was to them, the ones of the nation that recognized his Messiahship(?) such as Is. 53, 55:1-7, Jer. 31:31-34 and the above passage in Acts. The feasts of Israel are a type for what happened in Christ's first coming and what will happen in his second coming. The church inherits those promises as well because of Israel's rejection of the Messiah.

National Israel, which will be Christian at the times of their fulfillment, inherits all the land promises and the promises of restoration such as Is. 11, Hosea, Jer. 3:19, Ez. 37:16-22, Ez. 47:13-23, Ez. 48:1-29, the Davidic covenant as a whole, and Ps.105:8-11. Some of these were spoken of in the OT and affirmed in the NT like: Is. 59:21 which is affirmed in Rom. 11:29, Hos. 2:23, affirmed in Eph. 2:12-16 and Gal. 3:28-29. The book of Hebrews can also be considered the first book exampling Christian apologetics as it contrasts the differences between Christianity and Judaism with the superiority of Christianity being explained. I hope these help.
 

Trekson

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Fortunately, the Bible is not a book of Systematic Theology. So those who have eyes to see will see, and others will be blinded to the truth.

Don't you think a supposed truth of this magnitude would be mentioned? None of the marriage parables call the church, the bride. There were many opportunities Christ could of used such as Matt. 12:48-50. While there is indeed verses mentioning Christ as the bridegroom, it is only assumed the church is the bride but the fact is the bible never straight out affirms it.
 

Enoch111

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Don't you think a supposed truth of this magnitude would be mentioned? None of the marriage parables call the church, the bride. There were many opportunities Christ could of used such as Matt. 12:48-50. While there is indeed verses mentioning Christ as the bridegroom, it is only assumed the church is the bride but the fact is the bible never straight out affirms it.
Does a woman become a wife unless she has first been a bride?
The Church is depicted as both a wife and a bride, but you have failed to see it. So you are clearly mistaken, and you might as well admit it.

THE CHURCH AS A VIRGIN BRIDE
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. (2 Cor 11:2). *Espoused* means engaged, or betrothed, or pledged. God speaking through Paul to the Church.

THE CHURCH AS AN UNBLEMISHED WIFE:

EPHESIANS 5

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

ROMANS 7
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

REVELATION 19
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
 

Naomi25

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Hi Naomi, I can't say that in the OT there is a specific group called spiritual Israel, they should be considered the "remnant" as in the 7000 of Elijah's time, those who kept their righteous relationship w/ God regardless of what the nation as a whole was doing. All the prophecies of Christ was to them, the ones of the nation that recognized his Messiahship(?) such as Is. 53, 55:1-7, Jer. 31:31-34 and the above passage in Acts. The feasts of Israel are a type for what happened in Christ's first coming and what will happen in his second coming. The church inherits those promises as well because of Israel's rejection of the Messiah.
Hi Trekson! I know the group you're talking about, and it gets a little confusing, doesn't it? They are Israel, but national Israel is Israel too.
I think, perhaps they're called, in the NT, anyway, the elect. They are, without a doubt, like us; called and set apart by faith.

National Israel, which will be Christian at the times of their fulfillment, inherits all the land promises and the promises of restoration such as Is. 11, Hosea, Jer. 3:19, Ez. 37:16-22, Ez. 47:13-23, Ez. 48:1-29, the Davidic covenant as a whole, and Ps.105:8-11. Some of these were spoken of in the OT and affirmed in the NT like: Is. 59:21 which is affirmed in Rom. 11:29, Hos. 2:23, affirmed in Eph. 2:12-16 and Gal. 3:28-29. The book of Hebrews can also be considered the first book exampling Christian apologetics as it contrasts the differences between Christianity and Judaism with the superiority of Christianity being explained. I hope these help.

Thank you. These were most interesting. Some, I would venture to say were actually speaking about those elect, and the people of God come the NT relationship via the new covenant. But many of those other verses are very compelling. If, as we believe the bible tells us, a 'remnant' of faithful Israelites were always found in the OT, all the way through until the NT with the beginning of the Church, why all the passages about Israel's "unfaithfulness" and her need to turn back and God's intention to bring her back? Could that refer to 'spiritual Israel' as you call them? Probably not, for if God has 'kept' them from worshipping other gods, then we must suppose they have not been unfaithful. And we cannot suppose those passages are talking about the Church for much the same reason. In light of that, really, the conclusion could be drawn that they are talking of national Israel and God's plans for them, which would fit nicely with Romans 11.
 

farouk

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Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. -Galatians 3:16

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. -Romans 9:6–8

And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. -Galatians 3:29

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. -Romans 11:17–18

But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for
in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. -Galatians 3:25–28

What this is telling us is profound. When God made his covenant promises to Abraham to bless all the nations through him, via his seed, he was promising Christ. Israel...the truly elect Israel, the Israel of promise...believing Israel, the one who believed, and it was credited to them "as righteousness", was not "all Israel, Paul tells us. He tells us that not "all who are decended from Israel belong to Israel". We know in Elijah's time that God kept for himself an elect number of only 7000 'Israel'. But eventually, this true Israel brought forth the Christ. And "In Christ", we become "children of the promise". If we are Christians, then we too are counted as Abrahams offspring, as Israel.
This does not knock Israel off her perch and replace her. The Israel God and Paul is talking about, the elect Israel that he has guarded jealously have had numerous 'gentile' believers grafted in, just as, due to unbelief, it has had Jewish unbelievers broken off. All based on one main unity...Christ, and our relationship to him...the root.
The good news here is that Romans 11 seems to suggest that great numbers of national, unbelieving Israel will be drawn to Christ, being grafted back into the root. That's pretty amazing right there!
So are you saying that the church is supposedly Israel, and Israel is supposedly the church?

I don't see that in the New Testament.

And I don't see the church in the Old Testament. Anywhere.