Relationship Between Israel and the Church

[Trekson]

Does a woman become a wife unless she has first been a bride?
The Church is depicted as both a wife and a bride, but you have failed to see it. So you are clearly mistaken, and you might as well admit it.

THE CHURCH AS A VIRGIN BRIDE
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. (2 Cor 11:2). *Espoused* means engaged, or betrothed, or pledged. God speaking through Paul to the Church. A simple analogy, as I said, btw, would Paul have the right to pledge one to another?

THE CHURCH AS AN UNBLEMISHED WIFE:

EPHESIANS 5
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. Can a person marry themselves?
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Another analogy.

ROMANS 7
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. Another analogy but would this apply to an unmarried person if the supposed marriage was in the future?

REVELATION 19
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Not determined if the church is the right identity, that is a presumption, Can a bridegroom marry himself? In this scenario, if it was the church, the bride does not make herself ready, she would only be "ready" by the efforts of another (Christ). Hmm, how many brides will Christ have? In cp. 21 there is another bride analogy but this time it's a whole city, not even a person at all, unless...

 

[Trekson]

In light of that, really, the conclusion could be drawn that they are talking of national Israel and God's plans for them, which would fit nicely with Romans 11.

I agree totally.

 

[Enoch111]

Not determined if the church is the right identity, that is a presumption...

You continue to persist in your errors when the Church is specifically mentioned in Scripture as the wife of Christ. Read Ephesians 5 again.

Your other comments are not worthy of any response, since they indicate a lack spiritual comprehension and perception. As Paul says "this is a great mystery" and you will never perceive it.

 

[Naomi25]

So are you saying that the church is supposedly Israel, and Israel is supposedly the church?

Keep in mind I'm only saying what the verses I posted are saying.
Israel, as she was supposed to be, true, believing Israel, those who, like Abraham had faith and God 'kept' for himself...was not all "blood" Israel...in other words, not every person born a Jew, was "Israel", according to Paul. But we can see clearly throughout the OT a line of elect people of Jewish believers that had faith in God that he 'credited as righteousness' that Paul calls as "the true children of Abraham". These people are the "true Israel". The people who pointed to Christ, a light to the nations, just as Israel was always meant to do.

When we come to the NT and the Church was born at Pentecost, we do not see this 'true Israel' disappearing, we see the Church being added to her. We became one people of God in Christ Jesus. So yes, the Church is True Israel and True Israel is the Church. Paul clearly tells us that in Jesus (in whom we must all be saved, there IS no other way) there is neither Jew or Greek, but one body. "The Church" is just a name for this body. "Israel" is just the spiritual OT name for this body. We are the elect of God.

I don't see that in the New Testament.

And I don't see the church in the Old Testament. Anywhere.

The verses I gave you in the previous post are quite clear...so...I'm not sure how you don't 'see' it. I could re-post them, but if you didn't see it before, I'm not sure if you would now.

And you won't see "church" in the OT, although 'church' is just a word for the gathering of God's people. In the OT, that was Israel, or the godly Israel.
And we see, repeatedly in the NT, that we are to read the OT through NT eyes. That is what Jesus does, as do the apostles. The reason for this is Jesus himself. The OT points towards Jesus. It is the shadow and type that calls out the need for Jesus. When Jesus comes we see clearly what was once shadow. We mustn't go back to reading in half light, but, as Jesus told the disciples on the road to Emmaus, read it in light of him.

 

[farouk]

Keep in mind I'm only saying what the verses I posted are saying.
Israel, as she was supposed to be, true, believing Israel, those who, like Abraham had faith and God 'kept' for himself...was not all "blood" Israel...in other words, not every person born a Jew, was "Israel", according to Paul. But we can see clearly throughout the OT a line of elect people of Jewish believers that had faith in God that he 'credited as righteousness' that Paul calls as "the true children of Abraham". These people are the "true Israel". The people who pointed to Christ, a light to the nations, just as Israel was always meant to do.

When we come to the NT and the Church was born at Pentecost, we do not see this 'true Israel' disappearing, we see the Church being added to her. We became one people of God in Christ Jesus. So yes, the Church is True Israel and True Israel is the Church. Paul clearly tells us that in Jesus (in whom we must all be saved, there IS no other way) there is neither Jew or Greek, but one body. "The Church" is just a name for this body. "Israel" is just the spiritual OT name for this body. We are the elect of God.


The verses I gave you in the previous post are quite clear...so...I'm not sure how you don't 'see' it. I could re-post them, but if you didn't see it before, I'm not sure if you would now.

And you won't see "church" in the OT, although 'church' is just a word for the gathering of God's people. In the OT, that was Israel, or the godly Israel.
And we see, repeatedly in the NT, that we are to read the OT through NT eyes. That is what Jesus does, as do the apostles. The reason for this is Jesus himself. The OT points towards Jesus. It is the shadow and type that calls out the need for Jesus. When Jesus comes we see clearly what was once shadow. We mustn't go back to reading in half light, but, as Jesus told the disciples on the road to Emmaus, read it in light of him.

But in your scheme, what about Pentecost? because Pentecost makes all the difference in what the church is; Pentecost is the church's birthday, and it cannot be negated by the usage of the word 'gathering', etc. in other, vastly different contexts sometimes. At Pentecost the Spirit came to indwell, which never happened in the Old Testament.

 

[Naomi25]

But in your scheme, what about Pentecost? because Pentecost makes all the difference in what the church is; Pentecost is the church's birthday, and it cannot be negated by the usage of the word 'gathering', etc. in other, vastly different contexts sometimes. At Pentecost the Spirit came to indwell, which never happened in the Old Testament.

I'm not discounting any of that. I'm not saying that the Church did not have it's beginning at Penecost, or that the Spirit didn't fall in a new, paticular way that day. Like I said, Christ's coming changed everything.
However, Paul is still very clear. Let me try and walk you through it again:

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. -Romans 9:6–8

So...not all Jews are "Israel", right? It's the "children of the promise" who are "counted as offspring". Who are the "children of promise"?

And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. -Galatians 3:29

That would be us...the Church. But of course, according to Paul, the Church has only been grafted onto the "root":

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. -Romans 11:17–18

The "unbelieving branches" were unbelieving Jews. While believing Jews are "true Israel"...they are still attached to the 'root'...Christ, along with the grafted on 'Church'. That makes us one body in Christ:

But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. -Galatians 3:25–28

Mostly, we're just called the Church, now, and we're made up of all nations; Jews, Gentiles, the whole lot. But biblically, if you want to get into specifics, you could say that the Church is true Israel...not because we 'replaced them', but because God grafted us onto the same nourishing root that had been sustaining them throughout the OT. Yes, sustaining them in a different way than he does now, without question. But, clearly, they were still saved by faith:

just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”? -Galatians 3:6

 

[Enoch111]

So...not all Jews are "Israel", right? It's the "children of the promise" who are "counted as offspring". Who are the "children of promise"?

All those who obey the Gospel and are born again are the children of promise.

Getting back to your arguments about Israel and the Church let's get back to basics.

BEFORE THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
ISRAEL (ALL JEWS)------>BELIEVING JEWS + GENTILES = CHURCH RESIDENT IN THE NEW JERUSALEM

AFTER THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
ISRAEL (ALL JEWS)--> BELIEVING REMNANT---> KINGDOM OF ISRAEL OCCUPYING GREATER ISRAEL

 

[Naomi25]

All those who obey the Gospel and are born again are the children of promise.

Yes, and this should not be glossed over. Dispensationalists make a big deal accusing people like me of being "replacement theologists", usually using that phrase as they would in the same category as 'nazi' or 'anti-semite'. And, well, it's simply not true. Like you have here, we simply point out what Paul has...that the Church, people who are in Christ, are children of the promise. The promise made to Abraham. That includes us in something huge, but doesn't take anything away from what God gave Abraham or his 'children' Isaac or Jacob after him.
Think of it like this: your first child is so beloved. But when you have another, they don't replace the first, they are only added to the family. The Church has been added to Israel.
Where we 'differ' I think, is that we say, as I believe Paul clearly does, that 'not all Israel is Israel', because being blood does not mean they are Abrahams children. You must be 'children of promise' to have that designation. Many Jewish people did, many of them were 'true Israel'. But many of those 'branches' were broken off in unbelief. And any Jew today who does not believe in Jesus is not "true Israel".
And that's where we find ourselves now....and now we can move onto 'the basics', as you say...

Getting back to your arguments about Israel and the Church let's get back to basics.

BEFORE THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
ISRAEL (ALL JEWS)------>BELIEVING JEWS + GENTILES = CHURCH RESIDENT IN THE NEW JERUSALEM

AFTER THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
ISRAEL (ALL JEWS)--> BELIEVING REMNANT---> KINGDOM OF ISRAEL OCCUPYING GREATER ISRAEL

By "second coming" are you referring to what you believe as the Pre-trib Rapture? Or the actual second coming?
And I'm a little unsure of your roadmap here, sorry, I can't quite make out what you're saying. Are you saying that you think that the Nation of Israel is called Israel and believing Jews are lumped in with the Church, which will be Raptured? Which then leaves (still) National Israel with a growing believing portion, but they as a whole (Nation) will rule the land?

I will proceed as if that is correct, but forgive me if I have it wrong.
First, i'm not actually sure it matters what we call it, apart from helping us determine what or who we are talking about. But yes, in the NT it seems that believing Jews are included in the Church. However, it's not quite as simple as that. Theologically, when we trace not just the name Israel through the OT, but God's purpose for it, we see much more than just a Nation that has a particular name. Israel was to bring both blessing and a light to the nations, not just be a blessed nation of God. When we read the passages that cover the covenant God made with Abraham, how often did this feature? "And in you all Nations will be blessed"? Paul tells us the ultimate meaning of this promise:

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” -Galatians 3:8

And we read this:

he says:
“It is too light a thing that you should be my servant
to raise up the tribes of Jacob
and to bring back the preserved of Israel;
I will make you as a light for the nations,
that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.” -Isaiah 49:6

When Jesus, as a child, was presented at the Temple and Simeon, who had been promised by God that he wouldn't die until he'd seen the Messiah saw Jesus, he quoted Is 49:6 in direct reference to Jesus. In other words, he saw Christ as the "light of the world", the promised one who would bring salvation to the nations. Of course, we know this to be absolutely true. But in the OT, before Christ, this was supposed to be Israels job! Israel was supposed to stand as that light, that beacon of salvation of the one true God! And they failed, again and again! This is why we are so big on the whole 'type and shadow' thing. Jesus is not just the 'perfect passover lamb' who was slain so that our sins might be passed over...Christ stood in the place of Israel again and again and suceeded where she failed! If you think I'm wrong, think back over your OT and then walk through Christ's life. There is, as I just mentioned, the whole 'passover' example. But also, Jesus "came out of Egypt", just as the prophets said 'Israel' would when God called. Christ wandered in the wilderness for 40 days and withstood (sucessfully) temptation. He remained always faithful to his Father, even to the point of death, that night in the garden bowing and saying "your will be done" even as Israel cried "crucify him!"
Overwhelmingly, we see Paul is absolutely correct when he says that Abrahams promises were given to a single person...Christ. And this is because Christ came and fulfilled everything Israel failed to do. He IS the true Israel that brings light and salvation to the nations. Can anyone deny that?

That is why, when people come to Jesus, we all become one with the "nourishing root". By whatever name; the church, true Israel, the elect. We are the people of God, the people of promise, and it is the only way to God. And I know that even Dispensationialist agree with that. If unbelieving Jews are to be saved, they must put their faith in Jesus.

Now, about timing, I think we've probably had this conversation before, but, I cannot see any evidence in scripture that gives us leave to insert a gap between a Rapture and the second coming. This means that any large 'ingathering' of Jews into the body of Christ that Romans 11 talks about, must happen just prior to Christ's second coming. And, as we know, even today large numbers of Jews are doing just that. I pray the numbers will grow!

 

[farouk]

Yes, and this should not be glossed over. Dispensationalists make a big deal accusing people like me of being "replacement theologists", usually using that phrase as they would in the same category as 'nazi' or 'anti-semite'. And, well, it's simply not true. Like you have here, we simply point out what Paul has...that the Church, people who are in Christ, are children of the promise. The promise made to Abraham. That includes us in something huge, but doesn't take anything away from what God gave Abraham or his 'children' Isaac or Jacob after him.
Think of it like this: your first child is so beloved. But when you have another, they don't replace the first, they are only added to the family. The Church has been added to Israel.
Where we 'differ' I think, is that we say, as I believe Paul clearly does, that 'not all Israel is Israel', because being blood does not mean they are Abrahams children. You must be 'children of promise' to have that designation. Many Jewish people did, many of them were 'true Israel'. But many of those 'branches' were broken off in unbelief. And any Jew today who does not believe in Jesus is not "true Israel".
And that's where we find ourselves now....and now we can move onto 'the basics', as you say...



By "second coming" are you referring to what you believe as the Pre-trib Rapture? Or the actual second coming?
And I'm a little unsure of your roadmap here, sorry, I can't quite make out what you're saying. Are you saying that you think that the Nation of Israel is called Israel and believing Jews are lumped in with the Church, which will be Raptured? Which then leaves (still) National Israel with a growing believing portion, but they as a whole (Nation) will rule the land?

I will proceed as if that is correct, but forgive me if I have it wrong.
First, i'm not actually sure it matters what we call it, apart from helping us determine what or who we are talking about. But yes, in the NT it seems that believing Jews are included in the Church. However, it's not quite as simple as that. Theologically, when we trace not just the name Israel through the OT, but God's purpose for it, we see much more than just a Nation that has a particular name. Israel was to bring both blessing and a light to the nations, not just be a blessed nation of God. When we read the passages that cover the covenant God made with Abraham, how often did this feature? "And in you all Nations will be blessed"? Paul tells us the ultimate meaning of this promise:

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” -Galatians 3:8

And we read this:

he says:
“It is too light a thing that you should be my servant
to raise up the tribes of Jacob
and to bring back the preserved of Israel;
I will make you as a light for the nations,
that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.” -Isaiah 49:6

When Jesus, as a child, was presented at the Temple and Simeon, who had been promised by God that he wouldn't die until he'd seen the Messiah saw Jesus, he quoted Is 49:6 in direct reference to Jesus. In other words, he saw Christ as the "light of the world", the promised one who would bring salvation to the nations. Of course, we know this to be absolutely true. But in the OT, before Christ, this was supposed to be Israels job! Israel was supposed to stand as that light, that beacon of salvation of the one true God! And they failed, again and again! This is why we are so big on the whole 'type and shadow' thing. Jesus is not just the 'perfect passover lamb' who was slain so that our sins might be passed over...Christ stood in the place of Israel again and again and suceeded where she failed! If you think I'm wrong, think back over your OT and then walk through Christ's life. There is, as I just mentioned, the whole 'passover' example. But also, Jesus "came out of Egypt", just as the prophets said 'Israel' would when God called. Christ wandered in the wilderness for 40 days and withstood (sucessfully) temptation. He remained always faithful to his Father, even to the point of death, that night in the garden bowing and saying "your will be done" even as Israel cried "crucify him!"
Overwhelmingly, we see Paul is absolutely correct when he says that Abrahams promises were given to a single person...Christ. And this is because Christ came and fulfilled everything Israel failed to do. He IS the true Israel that brings light and salvation to the nations. Can anyone deny that?

That is why, when people come to Jesus, we all become one with the "nourishing root". By whatever name; the church, true Israel, the elect. We are the people of God, the people of promise, and it is the only way to God. And I know that even Dispensationialist agree with that. If unbelieving Jews are to be saved, they must put their faith in Jesus.

Now, about timing, I think we've probably had this conversation before, but, I cannot see any evidence in scripture that gives us leave to insert a gap between a Rapture and the second coming. This means that any large 'ingathering' of Jews into the body of Christ that Romans 11 talks about, must happen just prior to Christ's second coming. And, as we know, even today large numbers of Jews are doing just that. I pray the numbers will grow!

The question arises: what do different aspects of the Lord's coming mean for: 1) the church?; 2) Israel; 3) Gentiles?

This consideration alone - quite apart from other things - should give pause for acknowledgment that there are indeed different aspects/stages of the Lord's coming. 1 Thess. 4 does not deal with all those aspects; but a specific one, as regards the church.

 

[Enoch111]

By "second coming" are you referring to what you believe as the Pre-trib Rapture? Or the actual second coming?

I'm referring to the actual Second Coming of Christ, long after the Rapture.

What I am saying is that until the Rapture, all believing Jews and Gentiles constitute "the Church". But after the fulness of the Gentiles has been accomplished (Rom 11:25), the Church is complete.

Following that God deals with Israel and the Jews for their redemption and restoration on earth: And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them again to place them; for I have mercy upon them: and they shall be as though I had not cast them off: for I am the LORD their God, and will hear them. (Zech 10:6)

ROMANS 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

 

[Naomi25]

The question arises: what do different aspects of the Lord's coming mean for: 1) the church?; 2) Israel; 3) Gentiles?

This consideration alone - quite apart from other things - should give pause for acknowledgment that there are indeed different aspects/stages of the Lord's coming. 1 Thess. 4 does not deal with all those aspects; but a specific one, as regards the church.

This only presupposes that something different has to be done to each. That there is different aspects or stages.
If, as we know, we must come to Christ to be saved...and the Church (currently redeemed Jews and Gentiles) is already in him, there leaves only one option for anyone, be they national Israel or Gentile...come to Christ before the end, or perish in unbelief.
This is a simple (if I dare call it that) salvational matter, and not one of 'timing' or sequence. That we hope, and think, that Romans 11 tells us that great number of national Israel (unbelieving Jews) will come to Christ (the Church) before the end, says nothing, really, as to separate agendas or stages.

 

[Naomi25]

I'm referring to the actual Second Coming of Christ, long after the Rapture.

What I am saying is that until the Rapture, all believing Jews and Gentiles constitute "the Church". But after the fulness of the Gentiles has been accomplished (Rom 11:25), the Church is complete.

Ok. I suspect what I'm going to say next is going to make you angry, because you seem to take all this rather personally. Please know I'm not trying to insult you, or your beliefs about this, I just sincerly can't see them working with scripture and feel the need to point them out. That's my only goal here...working with scripture.

When you say that "the Church is complete" I have to question the validity of this. What do we know of the Church? The Church is the body of Christ (Eph 1:22-23), made up of believers who have faith in him (John 3:16), who are washed clean in his blood (1 Cor 6:11; Rev 714, 22:14) and have been purchased by him(1 Cor 6:20). They also have the presence of the Holy Spirit within them (1 Cor 12:13).
Even should I agree that there is a Pre-trib Rapture that takes a 'portion' of the Church away from the earth ahead of the last 7 years, I cannot agree that the bible then discribes a separate group of people without those traits for those last 7 years. It would seem quite clear to me that Revelation, despite calling them "Saints" (which, might I add, Christians are called elsewhere in the NT) describe followers of Christ with those exact same attributes. How, then, are we to classify them as "not the Church"?
Are we saying they are "second class Church members". But, the NT and Paul is very clear that this cannot be the case, when someone is "in Christ", so we must disgard that.
No...the only real conclusion is that Dispensationalists say these "Saints" in Revelation cannot be seen as Church members, because the 'Church' and the 'Holy Spirit' must be gone at the Rapture. That is reading a bible text from a doctrine and not the other way around, which is shocking.

Following that God deals with Israel and the Jews for their redemption and restoration on earth: And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them again to place them; for I have mercy upon them: and they shall be as though I had not cast them off: for I am the LORD their God, and will hear them. (Zech 10:6)

ROMANS 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

When God promised to take away Israel's sins, all throughout the OT, promising a new covenant and a Messiah, why do we reach the NT and Christ's coming, and his establishing of a new covenant...one that takes away sin...especially one welcomes Jews and Gentiles...and decide that it is NOT what the OT is talking about for 'Israel'?
Why do we have this incredible crescendo that leads to Christ's sacrifice and the Church, a blending of two people's into one, making salvation for the nations under one King...and then decide that the Jews have to do it differently at "the end"?
And why does that 'different way' have to be a going back to a type and shadow system that only pointed to Christ in the first place?

Dispensationalists miss the point here, widely. Christ has come. He did forgive sins, he did bring a new covenant for all who believed in him. All in him will inherit those promises. And if Israel (national) would come to him, they would receive mercy as promised. Paul seems to indicate in Rom 11 that many will. But there is simply no other covenant, no other agenda, no other plan running along side it. This is it. You come to Christ, or you don't. You do it before he returns, or you're lost. The bible in no, way, shape or form gives any leeway or wiggle room against this. And as nice as the Pre-trib Rapture idea is, there is no real need for it (and certainly no explicit biblical proof for it) if there is no separate plan for national Israel.

 

[Enoch111]

When you say that "the Church is complete" I have to question the validity of this. What do we know of the Church?

I don't say that. The Bible says that in Romans 11:25:

King James Bible
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
New International Version
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,
Holman Christian Standard Bible
So that you will not be conceited, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery: A partial hardening has come to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

So it is God who says that there is a specific *full number* of the Gentiles which will become a part of the Church, and then He will resume His direct dealings with Israel (the 12 tribes). See Romans 11:26-36. If you don't believe this, it is your problem, since God has spelled it out in plain English.

The Church -- by definition -- is all redeemed Jews and Gentiles in the Body of Christ UNTIL THE RAPTURE. No matter if you believe in a Pre-tribulation Rapture. The fact of the Rapture is incontrovertible. And when the Church is Raptured, that is the end of the Church and the Church Age. And yes, the Bible also says that the Holy Spirit will be *taken out of the way* which means that the Holy Spirit will return to Heaven with the Church.

King James Bible
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
English Standard Version
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.
Berean Study Bible
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way.

This does not mean that there will be no saints (saved men and women) during the Tribulation, the Great Tribulation, or after that. It simply means that Jews and Gentiles in one Body will remain as the Church in the New Jerusalem. But all the Tribulation saints will be martyred. And after the Millennium is established, the believing remnant in Israel will be regenerated saints on earth, surrounded by the saved nations. But these people will not be a part of the Church.

The problem is that those who believe in Replacement Theology simply can't get their heads around the fact that God has a plan for the Church as well as a plan for Israel (redeemed and restored).

 

[Naomi25]

I don't say that. The Bible says that in Romans 11:25:

King James Bible
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
New International Version
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,
Holman Christian Standard Bible
So that you will not be conceited, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery: A partial hardening has come to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

Well...two things here. This verse is talking about God bringing in large numbers of unsaved Jews into the Church (the body of believers in Christ), and it seems that that will happen when God has finished, largely, with the "Gentile Nations". This in no way, shape or form speaks to the separation of entities (the church and Israel) or to the fact that the Church must be 'absent' from planet earth when he does this. After all, national Israel is still here while he's been focusing on the Gentile nations. So, that idea does not stack up, biblially.

Secondly, in relation to our conversation, we're talking about timing, right? You think a time will come that necessitates the "end" of the Church, when she will be whisked away. But, my point is that still leaves us with a time period where, by any other definiton...certainly by biblical definition, people are still becoming "the body of Christ", with the full attributes of it....as per the verses I quoted to you. So...if, in the "tribulation period" people...both Jews and Gentiles are still coming to Jesus for salvation, still being filled with the Holy Spirit, still being washed clean by his blood, how, by every definition in the NT, are they NOT the Church? And what, then, does that do to your doctrines and so called verses saying that the church is not present then? Unless people stop coming to Christ before his second coming, people will be entering into his "body" right up until that moment. And unless you are willing to subscribe to "second-rate" "body" members, which the bible gives no bible support for, this doctrine becomes very hard to support.

So it is God who says that there is a specific *full number* of the Gentiles which will become a part of the Church, and then He will resume His direct dealings with Israel (the 12 tribes). See Romans 11:26-36. If you don't believe this, it is your problem, since God has spelled it out in plain English.

I have no problem believing this. What I have a problem believing, probably because it's not actually in the text, is the demand that the "church" has to be gone when God starts drawing national Israel to Christ. I also don't see Paul talking about the 12 tribes, just unbelieving Israel that, if they start to believe in Jesus, will be grafted back in. You make a simple idea complicated. There is a single tree...Jesus is the root, believing Gentiles and Jews are the branches now...the Church. National Israel, if she believes, when she believes, will be grafted back on before Christ's return at the end. That's what the text says. It does not give you leave to insert any more detail than that.

The Church -- by definition -- is all redeemed Jews and Gentiles in the Body of Christ UNTIL THE RAPTURE. No matter if you believe in a Pre-tribulation Rapture. The fact of the Rapture is incontrovertible.

I very much believe in a Rapture. But when I read my bible I see it clearly saying that it's at Christ's second coming.
Let's look at some of the more important Rapture passages and see what they say:

1 Cor 15. It clearly talks of the Rapture. "Twinkling of an eye"...we shall all be changed! The passage is talking about our change and the resurrection of the dead at Christ's coming.
In this passage, when it talks of Christ's "coming", it uses the word "parousia" παρουσία. But more, it says "at the" coming. ἐν τῇ. Not "a" coming, "the".
What about 1 Thess 4:15? "We who are alive shall be caught up!" How is this "coming" talked about? This too is "parousia" παρουσία, and again "the" τὴ.

But what about the verses Dispensationalists say are about the second coming, not the Rapture?
In 1 Thess 3:13 you say that Christ comes "with" his Saints, so it must be the second coming, rather than the Rapture. But, really? The very same word is used to describe it: "parousia" παρουσία. "At the" ἐν τῇ.

In fact, Dispensationalists tend to use the terms "parousia", "apokalupsis" (revelation) and "epiphaeia" (appearing) for both pretribulational rapture and the second coming. And, if both events share the same designation, grammatically, then there really isn't the slightest hint, biblically, of there being two events. Especially not when numerous other verses show simultaneous things happening at the same time when Christ does make his second coming.

And when the Church is Raptured, that is the end of the Church and the Church Age. And yes, the Bible also says that the Holy Spirit will be *taken out of the way* which means that the Holy Spirit will return to Heaven with the Church.

King James Bible
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
English Standard Version
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.
Berean Study Bible
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way.

Sadly, this is nothing more than reading what you want to into the text. It most certainly does not say that the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way. You are assuming that the "restrainer" is the HS. Could he be? Yes. But again, it is only an assumption that if he is, he must be withdrawn from the world in the shape of the Church before the Man of Sin can be revealed. Too many assumptions here for sound biblical exegesis.
And the "End of the Age"...that comes at Christ's second coming, not before. I challenge you to find any scripture that mentions the end of the 'Church Age' 7 years prior to that.

This does not mean that there will be no saints (saved men and women) during the Tribulation, the Great Tribulation, or after that. It simply means that Jews and Gentiles in one Body will remain as the Church in the New Jerusalem. But all the Tribulation saints will be martyred. And after the Millennium is established, the believing remnant in Israel will be regenerated saints on earth, surrounded by the saved nations. But these people will not be a part of the Church.

I see a very messy "system", made up from many verses that...might...perhaps...implicitly (if that) suggest some of these things (but probably don't), when in fact Paul spends a lot of time in the NT to make it all very, very simple. We have one life to repent in. You get up to the day you die, and that's it. Be in Jesus, or not. If you're in Jesus, you're in the Church, you've been grafted in to the root that is Christ. When he returns, that's it. Simple.

The problem is that those who believe in Replacement Theology simply can't get their heads around the fact that God has a plan for the Church as well as a plan for Israel (redeemed and restored).

And again with the label. You do know what I'm toting is not replacing Israel, right? For goodness sakes, you guys admit just as strongly that National Israel is NOT saved yet, and to be saved they have to come to Christ. And the Jews that ARE saved are the ones who are "in the Church"! We are the same!! The ONLY difference between us is that you think the bible teaches this bizarre Jewish sect after the Church vanishes...although no one seems to be able to say why they won't be any different to the Church, since they have to be exactly like the Church to be, what is in essence, the Church. Go figure. But, you know, just as long as it doesn't happen while we're here, because if it does, then we're horrible anti-semites! No...it's much better to think that the Church needs to be safe and happy in heaven while the Jews go through hell on earth to become the Church that way. Go Jews! That's much more loving.

And God's plan for the Jews? It was Jesus. And, he kind of came. So...any time they feel like being grafted back on in, it's a "go". No real need for us to fly on away...no need at all. Certainly no biblical one.

 

[tooldtocare]

There is of course the physical nation of Israel

I Googled “spitting on Christians” and I got 632000 results (0.34 seconds). Can you guess who the spitter's were/are? As a Christian does this trouble...you?

Spitting update

Reality is at your door. Muslims do not do the following & now you know who does
Christians in Jerusalem Want Jews to Stop Spitting on Them a few weeks ago, a senior Greek Orthodox clergyman in Israel attended a meeting at a government office in Jerusalem's Givat Shaul quarter. When he returned to his car, an elderly man wearing a skullcap came and knocked on the window.
Christians in Jerusalem want Jews to stop spitting on them

Oct 12, 2004 - Christians in Jerusalem Want Jews to Stop Spitting on Them. A few weeks ago, a senior Greek Orthodox clergyman in Israel attended a meeting at a government office in Jerusalem's Givat Shaul quarter. When he returned to his car, an elderly man wearing a skullcap came and knocked on the window.
Holy Spit: Why Do Ultra-Orthodox Jews Spit at Christians?

12/15/11
DL: Spitting at Christians a 'repulsive act'
Jewish group calls on Israel's Chief Rabbinate to denounce decades-old ultra-Orthodox practice of spitting at Christian clergymen on the street. 'This is a hateful act of persecution against another faith group
ynetnews - Jewish Scene

CHRISTIANS FEEL GROWING OPPRESSION IN ISRAEL
March 22, 2012
Traditional Christians in Israel today who increasingly find themselves under assault, especially those living in or near orthodox Jewish neighborhoods. Last month, two churches were painted with slogans such as “Jesus is dead” and “Death to Christianity.” Many priests are daily spat upon when walking on the streets in Jerusalem.
Christians Feel Growing Oppression in Israel - Open Doors USA

I don’t always see eye-to-eye with Abe Foxman of the Jewish Antidefamation League (ADL), but I want to give him his props on a recent statement issued by the ADL.

According to a press release, issued December 7th, 2012
The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) has called on the Chief Rabbinate of Israel to publicly denounce the repulsive decades-old practice by ultra-Orthodox Jews of spitting at Christian clergymen they encounter in the street.
ADL: Jews Should Not Spit at Christians

For the time being it is best to not visit Israel if you are a Christian. Should you visit, please cover your face to block the spit!!!

I just googled "spitting on Christians" 1/16/2019
About 945,000 results (0.44 seconds)

 

[Trekson]

You continue to persist in your errors when the Church is specifically mentioned in Scripture as the wife of Christ. Read Ephesians 5 again.

Your other comments are not worthy of any response, since they indicate a lack spiritual comprehension and perception. As Paul says "this is a great mystery" and you will never perceive it.

It most certainly is not!! The words, the "church is the wife of Christ" or "the church is the bride of Christ" is not mentioned anywhere in the bible. Though you are right, Eph. 5 would have been an excellent place to make that definitive statement. The fact that it does NOT, should speak volumes to those who are searching for real truth, not a smug, I know it all even though I can't prove it by God's word. The closest you'll get in Eph. 5 is an analogy defining the unity we should have with Christ as individual believers. Could the church be a wife before there is any kind of wedding? I think it also quite telling that in all of the marriage parables that Jesus taught, not once is the church even hinted at, at being the bride!

 

[Trekson]

I Googled “spitting on Christians” and I got 632000 results (0.34 seconds). Can you guess who the spitter's were/are? As a Christian does this trouble...you?

It is who Israel will become not who they are now. Presently they should be considered an anti-Christ nation!

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

It is who Israel will become not who they are now. Presently they should be considered an anti-Christ nation!

And not only that but an Anti-God nation because only around 10% of them are believers in the OT not to mention even truly follow Holy Moses at all. it's sad to say but it's true.

How is any Jew going to come to Jesus if they do not follow Holy Moses.
If they truly believe in Holy Moses they are on the correct path, but the big problem is that the Talmud and Zionist are working on bastardisation 24/7
A Christian should be pointing out the Talmud and the Zionist for what they truly are, Satanic ! hey the True Jews know for a fact that such do not represent them and there has been mass demonstrations against them in the State of Israel and New York, but the media covered it all up, because they want the masses to be totally ignorant idiots, because the media is controlled by the Talmud Zionist Satanist, who are claiming to be Jews but are not !

The Talmud and there stooge the so called Zionist, went about murdering 6 million Jews with their Nazi Socialist mates, they killed the true Jews who rejected the Talmud and false Zionist, not to mention that the Talmud whore claimed this to be a burn offering ? yes it is to them for sure because it's a burnt offering to their gods.
Why would you call a Genocide ? think about it ! why does one offer up a burnt offering ? is it to there gods.

 

[bbyrd009]

because the earth is not our home, our home is in heaven with God until the NJ arrives.

on earth as it is in heaven
no one has ever gone up to heaven except He Who came down from it
etc

you might find the diff in Erets and Kosmou, wadr
and Eternal and Immortal
and Hegelian and Naïve
and

 

[bbyrd009]

It is who Israel will become not who they are now. Presently they should be considered an anti-Christ nation!

ah, you mean "country" prolly? add that to the list maybe. peace