farouk
Well-Known Member
For me, bottom line, 1 Corinthians 10.32 makes me a dispensationalist: plus a lot of other factors do, also.
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“Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:” (1 Corinthians 10:32) (KJV 1900)For me, bottom line, 1 Corinthians 10.32 makes me a dispensationalist: plus a lot of other factors do, also.
Hmm. Possibly bc there likely were no or very few "Christians" that were not formerly Jews in the early Church, but imo for the most part early Christians were Jewish, and a part of the body politic. So I'm agreeing iow, sort ofit was not the case that Christians from a Gentile background were simply added to a Jewish body politic
HmmThe Spirit never indwelt Old Testament believers in the way He does in New Testament believers.
I would, however, see Pentecost (Acts 2) as when the church started, when the Spirit came to indwell His people in Christ taken out of both Judaism and Gentiles.
I don't think we can retrospectively read New Testament concepts from after the Cross, Resurrection, Ascension and Pentecost, into word usage in the Old Testament.
The 144,000 are shown to us as being "before the throne of God" which is in Heaven. They are "redeemed from the earth" which means they will no longer be on earth.I agree with the first part but the 144,000 will be on earth.
You have certainly missed reading the Scriptures which say that the Church is indeed the Bride of Christ. I will leave you to do some further research and confirm this.Are you aware that there is no scripture that calls the church the Bride of Christ?
You have certainly missed reading the Scriptures which say that the Church is indeed the Bride of Christ. I will leave you to do some further research and confirm this.
Fortunately, the Bible is not a book of Systematic Theology. So those who have eyes to see will see, and others will be blinded to the truth.I've done the research there are none that make a plain statement.
Romans 11 shows us the key. Jesus is the root. Many in Israel were partially blinded because they didn't accept their Messiah. The gospel went to the Gentiles UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles come into the church, at which time no more Gentiles will be saved, and Israel will be able to see again. Then only Jews will come into the church and the church, spiritual Israel, will be saved - One New Man.
The Church is not Gentile, it is both.
Sometimes the identities of the church and Israel get misconstrued which can lead to false conclusions based on wrongful assumptions. There are two Israels in scripture. There is of course the physical nation of Israel and there is a spiritual Israel which is founded in faith and with the Abrahamic covenant. Gentile Christian believers, upon salvation, become a part of this spiritual Israel. God made several covenants with the nation of Israel. Some, the church inherits by faith, others remain for just the nation of Israel. All the spiritual promises God made to Israel were fulfilled at Christ’s first coming. (ex. Acts 2:17-21) We inherit these promises the same way Abraham did in Gen. 15:6 through our faith and belief in our Redeemer and upon the righteousness of Christ we receive by faith at salvation.
Many people see the church becoming Israel in Romans 11 but I contend the opposite is true. This shows the separation of the two and reveals the destiny of the physical nation of Israel that will once again be based on their future understanding and utilizing the same faith that Abraham exhibited. Let’s look closer at Rom. 11.
There are two groups shown here, the wild olive shoots that are grafted into the cultivated tree (aka, the church) and the natural branches (Israel). Because of disobedience and lack of faith the natural branches were cut off so that we could be grafted in because of our faith and obedience. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, this grafting process will cease (vs.25) and Christ will restore the natural branches to their rightful place (vs.24). The word “all” in vs.26 doesn’t necessarily mean the whole nation, but that at some point, all that will be left of Israel that enters into the millennium will be saved. Where will this group come from? I believe they will be the 144,000 and the rest of the woman (believing Israel) who goes into hiding for 3 ½ yrs., Rev. 12:14. Where will they come from? I believe that the Holy Spirit will open the eyes of His chosen (Zech. 12:10) at the abomination of desolation in the midst (not necessarily the exact middle) of the 70th week.
While we enter into the tree by faith as Abraham, that only entitles us to the spiritual promises, which are more than enough. However, the land promises given to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and further explained in the latter chapters of Ezekial, remain for the saved, human Jewish remnant that enters the millennium, not the church because the earth is not our home, our home is in heaven with God until the NJ arrives.
I do not believe in the typical dispensationalism of pre-tribbers, however, in this one instance, the land inheritance of the nation of Israel, I do see a dispensation. Dispensationalists, as a rule, see a permanent separation between the church and Israel. I do not. I believe God’s plan is for an ultimate total unity between both parties and this is where I believe the future wedding has greater meaning.
For myself, Scripture indicates that Israel is Israel and the church is the church.I think Romans 9-11 is pivitol in discussing the relationship between the Church/Israel/Christ, true, although I am not sure I quite agree with your outcomes entirely.
My biggest question, I suppose, from your OP, is your starting premise that there is two separate promises to spiritual Israel and national Israel. Can you, perhaps, give scriptures showing these separate entities and promises, both in the OT and following through into the NT?
For myself, Scripture indicates that Israel is Israel and the church is the church.
Fortunately, the Bible is not a book of Systematic Theology. So those who have eyes to see will see, and others will be blinded to the truth.
My biggest question, I suppose, from your OP, is your starting premise that there is two separate promises to spiritual Israel and national Israel. Can you, perhaps, give scriptures showing these separate entities and promises, both in the OT and following through into the NT?
Fortunately, the Bible is not a book of Systematic Theology. So those who have eyes to see will see, and others will be blinded to the truth.
Does a woman become a wife unless she has first been a bride?Don't you think a supposed truth of this magnitude would be mentioned? None of the marriage parables call the church, the bride. There were many opportunities Christ could of used such as Matt. 12:48-50. While there is indeed verses mentioning Christ as the bridegroom, it is only assumed the church is the bride but the fact is the bible never straight out affirms it.
Hi Trekson! I know the group you're talking about, and it gets a little confusing, doesn't it? They are Israel, but national Israel is Israel too.Hi Naomi, I can't say that in the OT there is a specific group called spiritual Israel, they should be considered the "remnant" as in the 7000 of Elijah's time, those who kept their righteous relationship w/ God regardless of what the nation as a whole was doing. All the prophecies of Christ was to them, the ones of the nation that recognized his Messiahship(?) such as Is. 53, 55:1-7, Jer. 31:31-34 and the above passage in Acts. The feasts of Israel are a type for what happened in Christ's first coming and what will happen in his second coming. The church inherits those promises as well because of Israel's rejection of the Messiah.
National Israel, which will be Christian at the times of their fulfillment, inherits all the land promises and the promises of restoration such as Is. 11, Hosea, Jer. 3:19, Ez. 37:16-22, Ez. 47:13-23, Ez. 48:1-29, the Davidic covenant as a whole, and Ps.105:8-11. Some of these were spoken of in the OT and affirmed in the NT like: Is. 59:21 which is affirmed in Rom. 11:29, Hos. 2:23, affirmed in Eph. 2:12-16 and Gal. 3:28-29. The book of Hebrews can also be considered the first book exampling Christian apologetics as it contrasts the differences between Christianity and Judaism with the superiority of Christianity being explained. I hope these help.
So are you saying that the church is supposedly Israel, and Israel is supposedly the church?Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. -Galatians 3:16
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. -Romans 9:6–8
And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. -Galatians 3:29
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. -Romans 11:17–18
But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. -Galatians 3:25–28
What this is telling us is profound. When God made his covenant promises to Abraham to bless all the nations through him, via his seed, he was promising Christ. Israel...the truly elect Israel, the Israel of promise...believing Israel, the one who believed, and it was credited to them "as righteousness", was not "all Israel, Paul tells us. He tells us that not "all who are decended from Israel belong to Israel". We know in Elijah's time that God kept for himself an elect number of only 7000 'Israel'. But eventually, this true Israel brought forth the Christ. And "In Christ", we become "children of the promise". If we are Christians, then we too are counted as Abrahams offspring, as Israel.
This does not knock Israel off her perch and replace her. The Israel God and Paul is talking about, the elect Israel that he has guarded jealously have had numerous 'gentile' believers grafted in, just as, due to unbelief, it has had Jewish unbelievers broken off. All based on one main unity...Christ, and our relationship to him...the root.
The good news here is that Romans 11 seems to suggest that great numbers of national, unbelieving Israel will be drawn to Christ, being grafted back into the root. That's pretty amazing right there!