RELIGION: Trying to do in the flesh what God has already done in Jesus Christ

[Randy Kluth]

James 1:26 - If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one's religion is useless. This man's religion is vain, empty, devoid of power, lacking in content, nonproductive, dead and of no eternal value.

James 1:27 - Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

There is nothing wrong with "pure and undefiled religion" but there is certainly something wrong with impure and defiled religion.

There is also something wrong with an "anti-religious" person who makes attacking a whole class of people his ambition. How are we to reach out with the Gospel to those we disagree with, whether they be Catholics, Mormons, Jews, Moslems, etc. etc.?

We should not be attacking a whole class of people like "Catholics" or "religious people." We should be trying to become "like them to win them." That is, we should not make external adornments, such as attending Catholic masses, cause to condemn them, but should instead invite them to have respectful discourse about what we think Christian practice and belief should be.

 

[ScottA]

Religion is anti-Gospel and anti-Christ. The word "Law" and the word "Religion" mean the same thing. When one is doing the law, they are doing their religion. When one is doing their religion, they are doing the law. Paul said, "Therefore by the deeds of the law (what we do) no flesh will be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20.

The law, like religion cannot save or justify because it is what we do. The Holy Spirit is not given to anyone because of what they do. Paul said, "This only would I learn of you, did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law (because you did something) or by the hearing of faith (hearing and believing the Gospel). Galatians 3:2. The Galatians like many Catholics believed that they could be justified by what they did.

If we could be saved and justified by what we do, then who needs Jesus Christ? This is why Catholicism and other religions are anti-Christ. They are trying to do in their flesh what God has already done in Jesus Christ. Council of Trent. Canon #9. "If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema".

We had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with our salvation. The Gospel took place over 2,000 years ago before we were born. We have ALREADY been reconciled unto God by Jesus Christ. All that we have to do is receive it. Catholics and others want you to think that you have to merit it by doing something. They say: You must repent. You must confess, You must be baptized" You must, you must, you must or you will be anathema.

Catholicism is a religion of the flesh. It is appealing to the flesh, The flesh likes to think that it can please God by what it does (Religion) Paul said, "If righteousness comes by the law (religion) (what we do) then Jesus died in vain" Galatians 2:21. Satan would like for us to think that Jesus died in vain. This means that there was no atonement for sins, so, why believe in Jesus?

Better.

 

[Robert Pate]

There is also something wrong with an "anti-religious" person who makes attacking a whole class of people his ambition. How are we to reach out with the Gospel to those we disagree with, whether they be Catholics, Mormons, Jews, Moslems, etc. etc.?

We should not be attacking a whole class of people like "Catholics" or "religious people." We should be trying to become "like them to win them." That is, we should not make external adornments, such as attending Catholic masses, cause to condemn them, but should instead invite them to have respectful discourse about what we think Christian practice and belief should be.

You are apparently not aware of all of the false teaching going on. Maybe you should go buy a Bible.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You are apparently not aware of all of the false teaching going on. Maybe you should go buy a Bible.

I'm aware of all of the false teaching, and I would welcome any effort you make to correct it. But you need to correct your attitude if you hope to reach those lost in those false teachings.

 

[Robert Pate]

I'm aware of all of the false teaching, and I would welcome any effort you make to correct it. But you need to correct your attitude if you hope to reach those lost in those false teachings.

Read the 23rd chapter of Matthew and see what Jesus said to those law loving, Christ rejecting Jews. Maybe you believe that Jesus needed to correct his attitude?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Read the 23rd chapter of Matthew and see what Jesus said to those law loving, Christ rejecting Jews. Maybe you believe that Jesus needed to correct his attitude?

That's true. There comes a point with a particular group when redemption is no longer possible. I will concede you that. I just don't think that addressing Catholics in this way will reach any of them, nor will calling others "religious people" in a contemptible way, as you did me, will invite real constructive dialogue.

 

[Robert Pate]

That's true. There comes a point with a particular group when redemption is no longer possible. I will concede you that. I just don't think that addressing Catholics in this way will reach any of them, nor will calling others "religious people" in a contemptible way, as you did me, will invite real constructive dialogue.

You have misrepresented truth as being contemptible. I am not contemptible. Unfortunately, many are offended by the Gospel and justification by faith apart from the works of the law. Religion is a curse, Galatians 3:10. All of the religious Pharisees went to hell. Catholics will be in the "Lord, Lord, didn't we group" Matthew 7:21-23. Because they are trusting in their works to save them.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You have misrepresented truth as being contemptible. I am not contemptible. Unfortunately, many are offended by the Gospel and justification by faith apart from the works of the law. Religion is a curse, Galatians 3:10. All of the religious Pharisees went to hell. Catholics will be in the "Lord, Lord, didn't we group" Matthew 7:21-23. Because they are trusting in their works to save them.

You've already had explained to you the difference between true religion and corrupt religion. Why don't you at least try to make the distinction? Then I can at least partly find some agreement with you.

I make this distinction right off the bat, and then you refer to me as a "religious person" using it as a term of contempt. That is what I was talking about--not that you're a contemptible person, but that you're using a "term of contempt" and affixing that label to me, right after I questioned your use of the term without qualification.

 

[Robert Pate]

You've already had explained to you the difference between true religion and corrupt religion. Why don't you at least try to make the distinction? Then I can at least partly find some agreement with you.

I make this distinction right off the bat, and then you refer to me as a "religious person" using it as a term of contempt. That is what I was talking about--not that you're a contemptible person, but that you're using a "term of contempt" and affixing that label to me, right after I questioned your use of the term without qualification.

Religion is about you and your works. The Gospel is about Jesus Christ and his work. God does not accept the religious works of man because man is a sinner, Romans 3:10. God only accepts the works of Jesus Christ; we are accepted only in him and because of him. You will probably find that statement contemptable.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Religion is about you and your works. The Gospel is about Jesus Christ and his work. God does not accept the religious works of man because man is a sinner, Romans 3:10. God only accepts the works of Jesus Christ; we are accepted only in him and because of him. You will probably find that statement contemptable.

#399 in another thread I explain the difference between Works of one class and Works of another class. One is a payment whereas the other is meeting the conditions for something, or a qualification. They are different. CLICK

 

[Robert Pate]

#399 in another thread I explain the difference between Works of one class and Works of another class. One is a payment whereas the other is meeting the conditions for something, or a qualification. They are different. CLICK

Any religious thing that you do is a work. God does not accept the works or the obedience of sinners, if he did that would make him a sinner. God only accepts the works and the obedience of Jesus Christ. We are accepted only in him and because of him. It appears to me that you are going to be in "The Lord, Lord, didn't we group" Matthew 7:21-23.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Any religious thing that you do is a work. God does not accept the works or the obedience of sinners, if he did that would make him a sinner. God only accepts the works and the obedience of Jesus Christ. We are accepted only in him and because of him. It appears to me that you are going to be in "The Lord, Lord, didn't we group" Matthew 7:21-23.

Apparently you don't understand the points I made? You don't address the main point, that there is a semantical difference between the works of Christ and the works of men?

One is a work of atonement, and the other is a work to qualify for that atonement. We do not *earn* or *pay for* that atonement--rather, we qualify to receive the free gift simply by *receiving it.*

In receiving Christ, we install him, by default, in our heart as the source of our spiritual life. This then controls our choices. He is the inspiration and the virtue behind our choices. We are simply responding to his invitation.

I don't know what semantical application you're using for the word "sinners?" Are you referring to people committed to a life of sin? Or, are you referring to all of mankind, all of whom are tainted by sin?

As for all Christians, who are tainted with the Sin Nature, we can most certainly do religious works because Christ is in us, enabling us to both do good works and have our deeds follow us into eternity.

But for the rest of mankind, who also are sinners in this regard, they can do good works by cooperating with the word of God (subconsciously), though this will not produce works of lasting benefit.

As for those committed to a life of sin, certainly anything "religious" they may do will not cover over their sin. This will accrue to their shame in eternity.

 

[Robert Pate]

Apparently you don't understand the points I made? You don't address the main point, that there is a semantical difference between the works of Christ and the works of men?

One is a work of atonement, and the other is a work to qualify for that atonement. We do not *earn* or *pay for* that atonement--rather, we qualify to receive the free gift simply by *receiving it.*

In receiving Christ, we install him, by default, in our heart as the source of our spiritual life. This then controls our choices. He is the inspiration and the virtue behind our choices. We are simply responding to his invitation.

I don't know what semantical application you're using for the word "sinners?" Are you referring to people committed to a life of sin? Or, are you referring to all of mankind, all of whom are tainted by sin?

As for all Christians, who are tainted with the Sin Nature, we can most certainly do religious works because Christ is in us, enabling us to both do good works and have our deeds follow us into eternity.

But for the rest of mankind, who also are sinners in this regard, they can do good works by cooperating with the word of God (subconsciously), though this will not produce works of lasting benefit.

As for those committed to a life of sin, certainly anything "religious" they may do will not cover over their sin. This will accrue to their shame in eternity.

Christians do good works because they are indwelt with the Holy Spirit. We should never trust in our works to make us righteous or to please God. Jesus said, "Many will say to me on that day (judgment day) Lord, Lord, didn't I" Matthew 7:21-23.

 

[Bob Estey]

Religion is anti-Gospel and anti-Christ. The word "Law" and the word "Religion" mean the same thing. When one is doing the law, they are doing their religion. When one is doing their religion, they are doing the law. Paul said, "Therefore by the deeds of the law (what we do) no flesh will be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20.

The law, like religion cannot save or justify because it is what we do. The Holy Spirit is not given to anyone because of what they do. Paul said, "This only would I learn of you, did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law (because you did something) or by the hearing of faith (hearing and believing the Gospel). Galatians 3:2. The Galatians like many Catholics believed that they could be justified by what they did.

If we could be saved and justified by what we do, then who needs Jesus Christ? This is why Catholicism and other religions are anti-Christ. They are trying to do in their flesh what God has already done in Jesus Christ. Council of Trent. Canon #9. "If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema".

We had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with our salvation. The Gospel took place over 2,000 years ago before we were born. We have ALREADY been reconciled unto God by Jesus Christ. All that we have to do is receive it. Catholics and others want you to think that you have to merit it by doing something. They say: You must repent. You must confess, You must be baptized" You must, you must, you must or you will be anathema.

Catholicism is a religion of the flesh. It is appealing to the flesh, The flesh likes to think that it can please God by what it does (Religion) Paul said, "If righteousness comes by the law (religion) (what we do) then Jesus died in vain" Galatians 2:21. Satan would like for us to think that Jesus died in vain. This means that there was no atonement for sins, so, why believe in Jesus?

I see religion as trying to find out what God wants and then doing it.

 

[Robert Pate]

I see religion as trying to find out what God wants and then doing it.

God wants us to believe in his Son Jesus Christ.

 

[Bob Estey]

God wants us to believe in his Son Jesus Christ.

What do you mean by "believe in"? Is there anything that requires us to do?

 

[Robert Pate]

What do you mean by "believe in"? Is there anything that requires us to do?

Nope, John said, "That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16. All that believe in Jesus are given the Holy Spirit. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to produce good works and the Christian life. But that does not save us.

 

[Bob Estey]

Nope, John said, "That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16. All that believe in Jesus are given the Holy Spirit. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to produce good works and the Christian life. But that does not save us.

God does all the work and we just sit back and enjoy it?

I noticed you said, "That does not save us." Well, if "whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life," that sort of sounds saved to me.

 

[Robert Pate]

God does all the work and we just sit back and enjoy it?

I noticed you said, "That does not save us." Well, if "whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life," that sort of sounds saved to me.

The work of salvation has ALREADY been done. Jesus has done it all and he did it perfectly. All that we have to do is believe it.

 

[Bob Estey]

The work of salvation has ALREADY been done. Jesus has done it all and he did it perfectly. All that we have to do is believe it.

Are salvation and heaven the same thing?