Remember the real reason for the season!

[Skitnik]

Skitnik,

You'll need to do better than this with future posts. You provided not one piece of documentation to support your views of pagan holydays, etc. If you are going to convince me, you'll need to come up with evidence, not the assertions you provided here.

http://web.eecs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/Saturnalia.html

http://www.carnaval.com/saturnalia/

http://lesser-known.com/2013/12/22/what-are-the-12-days-of-christmas/

 

[OzSpen]

http://web.eecs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/Saturnalia.html

http://www.carnaval.com/saturnalia/

http://lesser-known.com/2013/12/22/what-are-the-12-days-of-christmas/

None of this documentation (without discussion by you) provides evidence for rejecting the celebration of Jesus' birth.

In the evidence I provided above, there were celebrations at the first Christmas so annual celebrations do not contravene this tradition:

• The angel announcing Christ's birth to the shepherds (Lk 2:10-12 ESV);
• Then there was the angels' responses at this announcement of Christ's birth (Lk 2:13-14 NIV);
• There were actions by the shepherds who left their flocks to go and see. It would be difficult to dismiss this as a celebration (Lk 2:15-20 NLT).
• It could have been 1-2 years later that the men from the east came bearing gifts (Matt 2:1-12 NASB). Now that's another celebration!

We are in excellent company in celebrating the Saviour's birth. As for the date, it doesn't matter. Who knows which date the men from the east came to celebrate Jesus' birth with gifts. The fact remains that they DID come to celebrate. And do you know what? They brought gifts as part of the celebration. Does that ring a bell?

Oz

 

[Skitnik]

None of this documentation (without discussion by you) provides evidence for rejecting the celebration of Jesus' birth.

In the evidence I provided above, there were celebrations at the first Christmas so annual celebrations do not contravene this tradition:

• The angel announcing Christ's birth to the shepherds (Lk 2:10-12 ESV);
• Then there was the angels' responses at this announcement of Christ's birth (Lk 2:13-14 NIV);
• There were actions by the shepherds who left their flocks to go and see. It would be difficult to dismiss this as a celebration (Lk 2:15-20 NLT).
• It could have been 1-2 years later that the men from the east came bearing gifts (Matt 2:1-12 NASB). Now that's another celebration!

We are in excellent company in celebrating the Saviour's birth. As for the date, it doesn't matter. Who knows which date the men from the east came to celebrate Jesus' birth with gifts. The fact remains that they DID come to celebrate. And do you know what? They brought gifts as part of the celebration. Does that ring a bell?

Oz

Provide some kind, any kind of Biblical evidence of Jesus commanding celebration of His birthday.
Provide some kind, any kind of Biblical evidence of date on which He wanted us to do so.

There is a plentiful historical evidence of Pagan Saturnelia being celebrated this time of the year though. Shepherds out in pastures and timing of census are in the Bible speaking against this date and against this time of the year. "Date doesn't matter"? says you. Date does matter. Other celebrations, feasts God did command at the specific time. No man is to make one day of the year into "holyday" on his own.

 

[StanJ]

Stan,

This is going way too far in putting down the other person, for these reasons:

1. To claim that opposition to celebration of Christmas is a 'false teaching' is stretching it somewhat. I don't agree with it (as I've expressed my view in this thread), but it is a view that some espouse that needs some further information. I have tried to do that in the biblical examples I have given about the celebrations at the time of Christ.
2. To describe somebody's view of opposition to the celebration of Christmas is that of the 'righteous minority' is provocative and false - in my view. Yes, it seems to be the 'minority' but to call it 'righteous minority' is using unfair hyperbole.
3. The 'kool aid' comment is goading the person and should not be used on CyB.

Keep up the good work, but I urge you to tame your lingo.

Oz

You know me Oz....my back gets up with this type of rhetoric, which I DO believe is false teaching because they claim it to be from scripture, when in fact the scriptures teach the opposite.
The scriptures say;
Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. Phil 4:8
One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Rom 14:5

Nobody is forced to celebrate Christmas, but to vilify those that do as lost and pagan is fallacious, and requires it to be dealt with to a certain degree of angry righteousness.

 

[StanJ]

Does anybody smell JW or WWCG here?

 

[Skitnik]

Does anybody smell JW or WWCG here?

Not me.

 

[OzSpen]

Provide some kind, any kind of Biblical evidence of Jesus commanding celebration of His birthday.
Provide some kind, any kind of Biblical evidence of date on which He wanted us to do so.

There is a plentiful historical evidence of Pagan Saturnelia being celebrated this time of the year though. Shepherds out in pastures and timing of census are in the Bible speaking against this date and against this time of the year. "Date doesn't matter"? says you. Date does matter. Other celebrations, feasts God did command at the specific time. No man is to make one day of the year into "holyday" on his own.

That's a red herring logical fallacy.

We don't need a command from Jesus to celebrate his birthday. An example is all that is needed to do it. I provided documentation for such.

Providing a date on which to celebrate Jesus' birth is irrelevant. We do not have a date on which the men from the east came bearing gifts (Matt 2:1-12 NASB). However, they did come to celebrate his birth about 1-2 years later.

When was the census? You provide ZERO evidence. Nothing!

Oz

 

[Skitnik]

That's a red herring logical fallacy.

We don't need a command from Jesus to celebrate his birthday. An example is all that is needed to do it. I provided documentation for such.

Providing a date on which to celebrate Jesus' birth is irrelevant. We do not have a date on which the men from the east came bearing gifts (Matt 2:1-12 NASB). However, they did come to celebrate his birth about 1-2 years later.

When was the census? You provide ZERO evidence. Nothing!

Oz

Wow! Asking for Biblical backing on Christian forum of all places is a "red herring"?!

Who said that we do not need a date? Feasts and celebrations commanded by God are very specific on time and duration. Never once that He said "do it anytime you feel like it".

The whole reason why Jesus was born where He was is because of the census. There is no way that it would be done in December.

 

[heretoeternity]

Seems the satanic pagan following groupies want to play God, and tell Him want days they will keep....these groupies do not have one Bible quote to present which says Dec 25th is to be kept, and easter also, ....they are non Biblical traditions of man which Jesus forbid....Mark 7 and Matthew 15....I know the groupies will ignore any reference to the Bible, as they operate under the assumption their distorted conclusions are correct, no matter if the Bible condemns it....interesting brand of "christianity" they are professing...

They should always remember that Salvation is through the Son of God, God's grace and commandments, and not the sungod/satan and his doctrines and days of sunday, Dec 25th and easter, all of which are non Biblical and of pagan origin.

 

[OzSpen]

Wow! Asking for Biblical backing on Christian forum of all places is a "red herring"?!

Who said that we do not need a date? Feasts and celebrations commanded by God are very specific on time and duration. Never once that He said "do it anytime you feel like it".

The whole reason why Jesus was born where He was is because of the census. There is no way that it would be done in December.

I think you need to re-read the meaning of a red herring logical fallacy.

You miss the point. Time of celebration of Christmas is a celebration of the census. The actual date of celebration could be 3 May, but that would not affect the fact that the men from the east came bearing gifts (Matt 2:1-12 NASB) to celebrate Jesus' birth. That's a fabulous example of a celebration that we can emulate. It is not required of us, but it is no reason for you to condemn us for celebrating Christmas on 25 December.

 

[OzSpen]

You know me Oz....my back gets up with this type of rhetoric, which I DO believe is false teaching because they claim it to be from scripture, when in fact the scriptures teach the opposite.
The scriptures say;
Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. Phil 4:8
One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Rom 14:5

Nobody is forced to celebrate Christmas, but to vilify those that do as lost and pagan is fallacious, and requires it to be dealt with to a certain degree of angry righteousness.

Stan,

I'm as sensitive as you to false teaching, but the opposition to celebration of Christmas - in my view - relates to a lack of knowledge about the celebrations at the first Christmas that can lead to celebrations today.

However, I will admit that the statement in the OP, 'Every time you say: Merry Christmas you are saying Merry crucifixion of Christ! Because that is what it means!' is a false statement. When I say, 'Merry Christmas', I am saying happy greetings to celebrate the birth of the Christ child - God becoming flesh. Yes, the birth of Jesus eventually led to Calvary, but Christmas deals with His birth, not his death and resurrection. This is simply misinformation.

I don't think getting up your hackles is helpful in this situation. It provokes.

Oz

 

[katabole]

I do not celebrate Christ's birth on December 25th. However, I do celebrate Christ's conception on that day.

I understand that the Pagan feast of Saturnalia is celebrated on the day of first full moon after the winter solstice. The full moon doesn't always occur on the 25th due to a lunar month being shorter than a solar month. When the Christian church began growing in the first few centuries and especially in the Dark Ages and Middle Ages and converts were being added in huge numbers, many of those converts were Pagans who celebrated Saturnalia. Because the dates of Christ's conception and the feast of Saturnalia are so close together (in fact the having a full moon on Christmas day happens periodically including this year), the Christian church in the past should have in fact outlawed any Pagan celebrations. They didn't. Instead the church embraced the practices of the Pagans because it made for much happier converts and much more revenue. The same happens in the Spring when the Pagan feast of Easter is celebrated instead of the Biblical feast of Passover.

I believe Jesus was born in the fall of the year, either September 28th or 29th which according to the Solar calendar and not the Jewish lunar calendar is the feast of Tabernacles. Tabernacles was an Israelite festival, a high Sabbath, appointed by God, that celebrated the coming of Passover. I believe Christ was born on the second holiest day of the year, Tabernacles. And He died on the holiest day of the year, Passover. Both festivals are high Sabbaths. I do not find any Biblical evidence as to why Christ's birth should or should not be celebrated. However, I do find evidence that the Feast of Tabernacles and Passover should be.

Where the dating goes wrong on Christ's birth is regarding the course of Abia, as mentioned in the Gospel of Luke. There were 24 priestly courses according to the Levitical priesthood. Abia was one of them. The course of Abia happened not once but twice in the run of a year, a very specific time when the Levitical priests performed their duties in the temple. If you choose the wrong date for the course, you will get the result of December 25th for Christ's birth. If you choose the other, you will get September 28th or 29th as the birthdate because the Israelite New Year was a solar year and not a lunar year. New Year's Day for an Israelite started at the Spring equinox when the sun was directly over the equator. And that occurs on either the 21st or 22nd day of March.

In my church, some members do celebrate Christmas Day. Other do not. Many others, like myself, celebrate Christmas Day in September. But we recognize December 25th as Christ's conception day and not his birthday. Some members like myself, do not have a Christmas tree or have Christmas dinner or give gifts. I consider it a day of reflection and have Communion and read the Word.

I actually believe Jesus celebrated his birthday as recorded in John's Gospel; John 7:37. The last and greatest day of the Feast of Tabernacles:

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

The other very interesting thing about the Feast of Tabernacles is that it is the only feast day that the Bible records that is celebrated in the future:

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Zechariah 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

Zechariah 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Zechariah 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

I do know the real reason for the season; Christ's conception. However, I completely disagree with any form of Pagan worship and especially what the modern Western culture mindset has done to December 25th. Western culture has turned Christmas into a business.

If anyone wants to read up on the correct date, then they can check out the following links for the Course of Abia.

1/ Parallel Datings of the Time of our Lord

http://levendwater.org/companion/append179.html#times

2/ Dates of the Begetting of our Lord and His birth

http://levendwater.org/companion/append179.html#begetting

3/ The Course of Abia

http://levendwater.org/companion/append179.html#abia

 

[StanJ]

I've heard the conception theory for Christmas, and it could be viable. For sure Jesus was not born in December, given shepherds were tending their flocks IN the field, so more likely August or September.
What unbelievers do or don't do, is of no concern to me...I celebrate the birth of Jesus for all the reasons most real Christians do.
If someone does not believe they should do so, then they shouldn't, because as Paul states in Rom 14:23, whatever is NOT of faith, is sin. To condemn others who do have the freedom to do so is purely judgemental.

 

[OzSpen]

Wow! Asking for Biblical backing on Christian forum of all places is a "red herring"?!

You still don't understand what you are doing when you use a red herring. You don't answer the issue that is being addressed and you go to the topic you want to discuss.

I have not called the asking for biblical backing on a Christian forum a red herring. It's when you switch topics and don't answer the issues I raise. So far you have not responded once to the 4 Scriptures I gave in support of a celebration at the first Christmas. That's why your response has been a red herring of avoiding to deal with the biblical evidence I provided.

Can't you see what you are doing?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I've heard the conception theory for Christmas, and it could be viable. For sure Jesus was not born in December, given shepherds were tending their flocks IN the field, so more likely August or September.
What unbelievers do or don't do, is of no concern to me...I celebrate the birth of Jesus for all the reasons most real Christians do.
If someone does not believe they should do so, then they shouldn't, because as Paul states in Rom 14:23, whatever is NOT of faith, is sin. To condemn others who do have the freedom to do so is purely judgemental.

Ah, that's a better word, Stan - judgmental. I'd rather see that word used than calling it 'false doctrine' of the anti-Christmas celebration view.

May you have a blessed and edifying Christmas season. Are you joining with your family for Christmas?

Oz

 

[StanJ]

Ah, that's a better word, Stan - judgmental. I'd rather see that word used than calling it 'false doctrine' of the anti-Christmas celebration view.

May you have a blessed and edifying Christmas season. Are you joining with your family for Christmas?

Oz

You as well, and yes we are getting together at my place for brunch, then my sister-in-laws for the big dinner!
God Bless.
How's your summer going?

 

[Skitnik]

I think you need to re-read the meaning of a red herring logical fallacy.

You miss the point. Time of celebration of Christmas is a celebration of the census. The actual date of celebration could be 3 May, but that would not affect the fact that the men from the east came bearing gifts (Matt 2:1-12 NASB) to celebrate Jesus' birth. That's a fabulous example of a celebration that we can emulate. It is not required of us, but it is no reason for you to condemn us for celebrating Christmas on 25 December.

"You miss the point. Time of celebration of Christmas is a celebration of the census"? What? You celebrate the census now? The one that could not possibly have happened in December? I see no sane reasoning in your statements. I thought the whole "Christmas" was about birth of Christ !?

If you celebrate the census and not the birth of the Son of God even then you got the time or the year wrong. Many thousands of people would have to travel long distances over muddy roads in the rain and snow. Many would have to travel over sea, which would be more or less a suicide in December.

 

[ATP]

Many have suggested a connection between Hanukkah and Christmas since both celebrations fall on the 25th of the month (Kislev/December). Although the Bible records the birth of the Messiah, no biblical basis exists for the date or observance of the Messiah's birthday. In fact, for more than three centuries, the early Church viewed the celebration of birthdays as a heathen custom.

Yet, the dates of Hanukkah and Christmas are connected. Zeus was seen as the incarnation of the sun. Together with his goddess-mother, Rhea (the Queen of Heaven), they formed the Greek version of the mother/child cult founded in Babylon. Antiochus chose the 25th of the month to desecrate the Temple with his pagan sacrifice because it was the birthday of Zeus. It was the winter solstice, when days began to lengthen. Sun-worshiping pagans, therefore, celebrated December 25 as the birthday of the new sun.

To the sun-worshiping Romans, Zeus was known as Jupiter. He was the son of Saturn and Ops. He was the supreme Roman deity and the father of the other pagan gods. December 17-24 was called Saturnalia (in honor of Saturn) and celebrated with unrestrained license. The Romans celebrated December 25th (the birthday of Zeus/Jupiter) as Dies Natalis Invicti Solis, "the Day of the Nativity of the Unconquered Sun".

In the fourth century A.D., the Roman Church chose December 25 as the day to celebrate "Christ's Mass," a special mass in honor of Christ's birth. It was part of a concerted effort to "Christianize" pagan Roman rites so that all peoples of the empire could be brought into the Roman Church.

For centuries, many segments of Christianity condemned the observance of December 25 as sun worship. A.H. Newman writes: "Christian preachers of the West and the Nearer East protested against the unseemly frivolity with which Christ's birthday was celebrated, while Christians of Mesopotamia accused their Western brethren of idolatry and sun-worship for adopting as Christian this pagan festival. Yet the festival rapidly gained acceptance and became, at last, so firmly established that even the Protestant revolution of the sixteenth century was not able to dislodge it" (The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, pg 48)

From the book "The Feasts of the Lord" by Kevin Howard and Marvin Rosenthal Pg 172

 

[OzSpen]

You as well, and yes we are getting together at my place for brunch, then my sister-in-laws for the big dinner!
God Bless.
How's your summer going?

It's Christmas dinner at our place this year. The children, spouses and grandchildren alternate years with parents. It's our turn this year, but our youngest, Jeff, wife and 2 littlies will not be travelling here from Canberra because of the recent birth of baby Jemima Rose.

Summer is not bad. Today's expected temperature range is 20-27C but it is warming to 32C later in the week. We've had a few storms that brought 15-20mm of rain. Grass is green and needs plenty of lawn mowing. Fortunately the yard is very small. I purchased a cordless whipper snipper (my mate in Ohio calls it a weed eater).

The cricket season is warming up and I'm enjoying it. The Big Bash starts on Thursday night. It's a shortened form of the game with lots of big hitting. Gets the crowd buzzing.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

"You miss the point. Time of celebration of Christmas is a celebration of the census"? What? You celebrate the census now? The one that could not possibly have happened in December? I see no sane reasoning in your statements. I thought the whole "Christmas" was about birth of Christ !?

If you celebrate the census and not the birth of the Son of God even then you got the time or the year wrong. Many thousands of people would have to travel long distances over muddy roads in the rain and snow. Many would have to travel over sea, which would be more or less a suicide in December.

When was the census, mate? You were the one cynically asking me questions about the census. We can go nowhere with this discussion when you do this!