Removal Theology not Replacement Theology

[brakelite]

It's actually an interesting thing to think about, isn't it? Is it rank? Yes, we know that Christ submits to his Father, and that the bible says that Christ will lay all that he has (all that he gains rule and reign over) at his Father's feet. But by Christ's own teaching, those who would be first are last. By totally submitting himself to the Father, we might believe by Christ's own teaching that God raises him to His own level, so that they may, indeed, be one...perfect unity and fellowship.

What is more interesting is that everything that is under Christ's feet, that is His enemies, were put there by the Father. And I agree, that as in the beginning so it will be in the end... The Father the source of all that the Son has, and is. "It pleased the Father that in Him should all fulness dwell."
"In Him is life, and the life is the light of men".

"Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

" For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute mayjudgment also, because he is the Son of man."

All things Jesus has, even life itself, is given him that he may give it to others. And "he who lays down his life shall keep it to life eternal" applied to Jesus as much to us.

 

[bbyrd009]

You seem a bit peeved that I have not answered "your Qs"

ah, no, i never expected you to answer them Naomi. Don't take this wrong but i don't think you even...I mean i don't think they apply to you, aren't relevant to you right now, i guess

Why is the subject about picking up my cross and "outdoing" Jesus coming into a conversation about remembering the fact that Jesus went to the cross for me? Have no idea what he's talking about. In fact, I'm so at a loss, I'm not even sure how to make a comment on that...pass...onto the next paragraph.

sure, i understand. You still believe Jesus went and died to be a sacrifice for your sins, so God would not be mad and hide His face from you any more, and you could become immortal. So natch my Qs are not going to make much sense with those premises.

we are basically two ppl sharing the same English terms now i guess, which maybe initially sounds like condemnation but i do not mean this at all ok, there is no judgement for beliefs. However there is for actions/works, so i'll say that the subject about picking up your cross and "outdoing" Jesus coming into a conversation about remembering the fact that Jesus went to the cross for you is mostly about how Jesus did not die for your sins, at least not in the manner you have been indoctrinated to believe, and about how you will never partake in Christ that way regardless of what you believe.

So iow you are maybe having a convo under one premise, but everyone else in here has their own premises that only line up with ours at points, something like that

but i may have got some of that a bit wrong up there in my synopsis of your beliefs, or you are still changing your mind i'm sure anyway, etc right, as far as i am concerned we are just talking here ok

"this believer"? Were you talking about me?

the point there was that that is a widely held belief, and you are not alone

 

[bbyrd009]

Witness your dodge above. Try working on that.

"Is Jesus fully God?"
"God is the head of Christ; are you fully your head?"

if there is some dodge here wadr you are going to have to point it out,
what i see is some hoisting on some petards

 

[Naomi25]

ah, no, i never expected you to answer them Naomi. Don't take this wrong but i don't think you even...I mean i don't think they apply to you, aren't relevant to you right now, i guess

sure, i understand. You still believe Jesus went and died to be a sacrifice for your sins, so God would not be mad and hide His face from you any more, and you could become immortal. So natch my Qs are not going to make much sense with those premises.

we are basically two ppl sharing the same English terms now i guess, which maybe initially sounds like condemnation but i do not mean this at all ok, there is no judgement for beliefs. However there is for actions/works, so i'll say that the subject about picking up your cross and "outdoing" Jesus coming into a conversation about remembering the fact that Jesus went to the cross for you is mostly about how Jesus did not die for your sins, at least not in the manner you have been indoctrinated to believe, and about how you will never partake in Christ that way regardless of what you believe.

So iow you are maybe having a convo under one premise, but everyone else in here has their own premises that only line up with ours at points, something like that

but i may have got some of that a bit wrong up there in my synopsis of your beliefs, or you are still changing your mind i'm sure anyway, etc right, as far as i am concerned we are just talking here ok

the point there was that that is a widely held belief, and you are not alone

Wildly enough, I actually understood the words you wrote this time.
And boy are you on the wrong track. Have you even read the bible?

The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! -John 1:29

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. -Romans 5:6–11

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. - 2 Corinthians 5:21


I could go on and on and on. There is such a richness and a vast pool of verses to pull from when it comes to Christ dying FOR (or because) of our sins and justifying us before God. The only way to read these verses out of scripture is if you are willingly blind or spiritually blind. Either is not a good way to be. If you are truly a truth seeker (and not a soap-box preacher or plain old troll) then you need to get praying that God will open your eyes to this matter. It's sort of an essential one, and by that, I mean essential to salvation. You don't want to miss it. Search the bible and pray.

 

[Naomi25]

"Is Jesus fully God?"
"God is the head of Christ; are you fully your head?"

if there is some dodge here wadr you are going to have to point it out,
what i see is some hoisting on some petards

An answer would have been a "yes" or "no". Followed by whatever qualification you deemed needed. Instead you make a cryptic remark that could mean that God leads all Christ does, or thinks...or it could of meant that you see them as one being. Or it could have meant that you see them as separate persons with God as the spiritual 'head'. All these can be 'packed' into that cryptic little remark, all made vaguer by your "are you fully your head?" Which nicely brings it around to more confusion...are we back to saying God and Jesus are one being? Tossing the Trinity out the window? And just besides...you always seem to go out of your way to answer things as weirdly and vaguely as possible. So don't put it on me when I go . Just talk straight for once, would you? No body likes a troll.

 

[101G]

Many find fault with those who claim Christendom is biblical Israel. Saying God did not replace Israel with the Church. This is true but it shows a misunderstanding of Israel's true identity.

“Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet [Christ]. You must obey him in everything.. Every person who does not obey that prophet will be destroyed and thus removed from the people [Israel].’” Ac 3:22–23

The church did not replace Israel. The Church is Israel. God removed the unbelievers from Israel and grafted believing gentiles into their place. Romans 11:17.

And, for the sake of the fathers, God reattaches the broken off but only through faith in Christ. For this Paul uses himself as an example, Romans 11:1–5. And as we preach the gospel to all nations until the end of the world Matthew 28:20 in this way, all Israel, believing Jew and gentile, will be saved Romans 11:26.

Addressing the OP only, and not having read all of the Post,. instead of a Removal or Replacement Theology, why not a "reconciliation " Theology of all men. scripture,
Isa 14:1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

NT fulfilled,
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.

 

[Dave L]

Addressing the OP only, and not having read all of the Post,. instead of a Removal or Replacement Theology, why not a "reconciliation " Theology of all men. scripture,
Isa 14:1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

NT fulfilled,
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.

That's nice, but we need stronger tincture to come against those who claim the church is not Israel.

 

[bbyrd009]

There is such a richness and a vast pool of verses to pull from when it comes to Christ dying FOR (or because) of our sins and justifying us before God. The only way to read these verses out of scripture is if you are willingly blind or spiritually blind.

well, i suggest that there are...there is another point of view from which those may be understood, but it is a hard one to assume as i then become the one who crucified Christ, rather than...anyone else, and Jesus then becomes revealed as the Scapegoat. See, one good way to read those vv out--the best way even imo--is to assume that God sent Jesus to die as a Scapegoat for me.

And scapegoats are as...important and essential as egos, i guess, they are apparently necessary, even vital things for a certain stage of development
@aspen

An answer would have been a "yes" or "no"

but of course see how i could say the same thing; if you really wanted to understand my reply, you could have just answered yes or no, right?

so wadr even though you will surely take this diff my answer is "i don't know,"
not yes, and not no. Not meaning to be cagey, but i am not qualified to define God imo beyond the boundaries of Scripture

i know God is the head of Christ, and i know you cannot answer my Qs, that after all require only a yes or a no, ok?
An answer that would have served you would have been a yes or a no, yes
and i don't blame you for trying either, ok
the point being that you are not even looking for an answer there, right;
we are both asking lawyer questions now, this is understood, yes?

 

[bbyrd009]

Followed by whatever qualification you deemed needed. Instead you make a cryptic remark that could mean that God leads all Christ does, or thinks...or it could of meant that you see them as one being. Or it could have meant that you see them as separate persons with God as the spiritual 'head'. All these can be 'packed' into that cryptic little remark, all made vaguer by your "are you fully your head?" Which nicely brings it around to more confusion...

"God is the head of Christ" does not strike me as vague, although i guess it isn't good enough for most...ppl, in the West anyway, huh? It's that Hegelian thing i guess.

are we back to saying God and Jesus are one being?

hmm. Well, wadr you are the one who added "being" ok, but up til then we were more or less we, yes. I would have put Christ where you put Jesus however, and "are we back to" is making some inference that i suspect is not...ostensible, sorry, can't think of a better word there

Tossing the Trinity out the window?

never so much as opened the window to let it slither in wadr, the trinity is under a rock in the fire-ring the pagans in the yard are all dancing around imo; the trinity is VaticanLondonWashDC, they even have their own flag you know

when you become elohim too like the Book says where should i put you in the Trinity?

perhaps not the kindest way to say that i looked up trinity in my Bible search, and i can't find it, wadr.
I know you are not intentionally meaning to be offensive

And just besides...you always seem to go out of your way to answer things as weirdly and vaguely as possible. So don't put it on me when I go . Just talk straight for once, would you? No body likes a troll.

ah no, not your fault, i agree. You have kids, right, or regardless you get the joke in "stay here for the present," yes? The ambiguity in the def of "present" allows for 2 interps? Which one is correct? Or let me rephrase, so there is no ambiguity...less ambiguity anyway

When an adult intentionally says to a little kid "Stay here for the present" whose interpretation will manifest?
Obv the adult's, right? The adult is being intentionally deceptive, and the little kid does not know any better, and thus is not even in a position to question the statement, which he takes at "face value," based upon his def of "present."

my point here is that i am being made into the deceptive adult here i guess, or the ignorant child, whichever, when imo this scenario does not really describe our relationship, see; you can ask pertinent clarifying questions, so can i, and etc.

So when you now say "you always seem to go out of your way to answer things as weirdly and vaguely as possible" or "Just talk straight for once, would you? No body likes a troll," hopefully you see how these might be interpreted...differently; the way you really intended iow?

If i am to play the ignorant child here, then it seems only fair to expect the teacher to answer my questions in a straightforward manner, don't you think?

and fwiw i hope i can do the same for you, if you want to play the ignorant child; i don't mean to imply that this is a "bad" concept to work within, ok, might even get you what you are after here, i can flip back and forth, maybe you can too, but i can say that i am trying to give a dialectic reply to a logical question posed by a determinist, so naturally if you are seeking proof or facts my responses are going to...um be at odds with your expectations.

(everything i say is a lie, iow)

 

[Naomi25]

well, i suggest that there are...there is another point of view from which those may be understood, but it is a hard one to assume as i then become the one who crucified Christ, rather than...anyone else, and Jesus then becomes revealed as the Scapegoat. See, one good way to read those vv out--the best way even imo--is to assume that God sent Jesus to die as a Scapegoat for me.

And scapegoats are as...important and essential as egos, i guess, they are apparently necessary, even vital things for a certain stage of development
@aspen
?

Why would you see Christ as the Scapegoat, rather than the 'sacrifice' goat? The Scapegoat was released into the wilderness, and the sacrficed one was, well, sacrificed, it's blood spilled. And we know that Christ had his blood spilled for us.

never so much as opened the window to let it slither in wadr, the trinity is under a rock in the fire-ring the pagans in the yard are all dancing around imo; the trinity is VaticanLondonWashDC, they even have their own flag you know

when you become elohim too like the Book says where should i put you in the Trinity?

perhaps not the kindest way to say that i looked up trinity in my Bible search, and i can't find it, wadr.
I know you are not intentionally meaning to be offensive

So...you want to convince people to warp scripture enough to look at verses about Christ's sacrifice in a totally different way, but you don't think a doctrine can be fully built without a itty, bitty word showing up? You know that's just our word to define what God is, right? But what he is is fully painted out in scripture. You'll have to do more than a "word search" to find out that.

 

[bbyrd009]

And we know that Christ had his blood spilled for us.

ah, no, wadr you know that, and Cult of Sol worshippers all know that, but "we" do not know that.
"We" understand that Scripture was written to hide wisdom from the wise, and "we" verify that that is functioning at 100% here.
Jesus did not "die for your sins" in the manner that an untrained child would read, and your refusal to even address the point tells me all i need to know wadr. 20No Son of Man may die for another's sins

so let's review; your "we" all knows that Jesus died to cover their sins from an Angry God Who requires blood sacrifices to appease Himself, and make it possible to then commune with His children (a stark departure from God's treatment of Adam and Eve in the Garden); and this "we" also sings "When we all get to heaven..." and seeks Death More Abundantly

my i knows that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, and i did that--which is why you can't even find any blood, except in English, and even then you gotta quint real hard--but that God is most merciful and forgives everyone unconditionally, as forgiveness does not save anyone anyway. Those few who understand that they must become a Living Sacrifice find confession, leads to salvation.

imo.
i just shot from the hip here, it will prolly get edited into better shape, but if anyone has any objections pls holla, replies without Scripture will be ignored

 

[bbyrd009]

So...you want to convince people

no, i have no desire to convince anyone of anything, any more, and i encourage you to continue in your beliefs if they serve you, i don't think your beliefs will condemn you, but i do guess beliefs lead to certain works, seems obv to me that someone who believes God has accepted a blood sacrifice for all of their sins would not need to confess, and etc

 

[Naomi25]

ah, no, wadr you know that, and Cult of Sol worshippers all know that, but "we" do not know that.
"We" understand that Scripture was written to hide wisdom from the wise, and "we" verify that that is functioning at 100% here.
Jesus did not "die for your sins" in the manner that an untrained child would read, and your refusal to even address the point tells me all i need to know wadr. 20No Son of Man may die for another's sins

Let me see if I can catalogue what I've gathered about your beliefs just briefly. You don't think we can be sure the bible tells us truth, or that God is knowable. You don't believe in the Trinity, or that Jesus died for our sins. You think "Christians" are members of the sun cult and are incapable of reading scripture correctly because we are "untrained children". You, however, know its true secrets because you see beyond the wise (even though you've admitted it doesn't hold truth), and that we can disgard, or read past all those NT texts about what Christ has done because of one (out of context, by the way) verse from the OT.

There are so many things wrong there, I just don't know where to start. I know I've said it before, but...why on earth are you on a Christian forum?

so let's review; your "we" all knows that Jesus died to cover their sins from an Angry God Who requires blood sacrifices to appease Himself, and make it possible to then commune with His children (a stark departure from God's treatment of Adam and Eve in the Garden); and this "we" also sings "When we all get to heaven..." and seeks Death More Abundantly

This alone tells me that you simply do not understand God, or what the bible says about him, sin, or the reason Christ came.

my i knows that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, and i did that--which is why you can't even find any blood, except in English, and even then you gotta quint real hard--but that God is most merciful and forgives everyone unconditionally, as forgiveness does not save anyone anyway. Those few who understand that they must become a Living Sacrifice find confession, leads to salvation.

imo.
i just shot from the hip here, it will prolly get edited into better shape, but if anyone has any objections pls holla, replies without Scripture will be ignored

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, -Ephesians 1:7

...knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. -1 Peter 1:18–19

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, -1 Corinthians 15:3–4

The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! -John 1:29

He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. -1 Peter 2:24

And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. -Matthew 26:27–28

just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. -John 10:15


For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. -Romans 6:23

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. -Ephesians 2:8–9

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. -Ephesians 2:13


Faith in Christ's work on the cross leads to salvation.

 

[farouk]

And what is that supposed to mean? Is Christ fully God?

His Deity is pivotal. "In Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily". (Colossians)

 

[bbyrd009]

You don't think we can be sure the bible tells us truth

untrue, a more accurate phrase might be something like "the actual unvarnished truth would prolly kill us all" and/or "when you can find 51% of creation rather than 5 pls come back and we can discuss whether we are then qualified to contemplate half-truths" or something.

i can be sure the Bible intentionally lies to most ppl, and after all All Are Deceived, right, i'm part of all i guess, and you never heard me make any of those claims either, Naomi. i discovered that Scripture was likely written dialectically, and i did not know what that even meant so i asked google a Q and found this forum more or less, and i have never meant to suggest anything else

plus you were invited to state an Absolute Truth from Scripture any time you like, let me extend that to "spiritual truth" or even "Bible truth" now, if that broadens the spectrum any, give it your best shot, bl is trying on the (oh-so-encouraging) "Come Worship" thread right now. You might wanna skip the OP though, it's...pretty bad, note the contrast with the title, etc

or that God is knowable

all the gods i know have fallen, Naomi, if you have a knowable god then i feel for you ok, you prolly even imagine that he is a person, etc right

You don't believe in the Trinity

the only One i believe in is God, yes

i believe there is a trinity though, as i have already said

or that Jesus died for our sins

Christ died for our sins, already made that plain i guess
stay there and wait for the present as long as you need to, or ask some pertinent questions if you like, even ask google if you abhor being perceived as a seeker so much, @ "Jesus did not die for your sins." There might be a few idiot links in there, but honest most of them are prolly trying to get at better truth i guess

You think "Christians" are members of the sun cult

untrue, obv you can't be both, i don't consider you a Christian, and that might even be a compliment coming from me, ok. Christians don't get any free passes, i guess. Cult of Sol believers who do the right things, who cares if they believe they might go to Valhalla when they die? Not me, and not God imo, see my sig

you perceive--bc it sells so good--a judgement for beliefs, that you cannot find anywhere in Scripture imo Naomi; go Quote me the judgement for beliefs and we can see

You, however, know its true secrets

there are no secrets that i am aware of, but i get you i guess, and fwiw i have just begun that path, as i hope i made clear. It's pretty much like starting to read Scripture all over again, and i've been at it casually for about a year or so now

 

[bbyrd009]

There are so many things wrong there, I just don't know where to start.

i guess you won't have any problems there prolly, looks to me like you are already on your way right.

wadr i'm just gonna bow out here ok, have a joyous...Saturn-day

if i skipped any seeker Qs in there lemme know,
but wadr i am not interested in reading a sermon based upon false premises

 

[bbyrd009]

"the actual unvarnished truth would prolly kill us all"

 

[Naomi25]

i guess you won't have any problems there prolly, looks to me like you are already on your way right.

wadr i'm just gonna bow out here ok, have a joyous...Saturn-day

if i skipped any seeker Qs in there lemme know,
but wadr i am not interested in reading a sermon based upon false premises

Yeah...I think we've reached that spot again! You and I...I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye. And I don't need to give you a sermon. God's word will stand for itself. If not now, for you, then eventually. I just hope it won't come to late. But remember, in the end, someone will end up saying "thy will be done." If it's God saying it to you because you insist on your own way and your own interpretation...heaven help you.
See you 'round.

 

[bbyrd009]

You and I...I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye.

death more abundantly and life more abundantly are two diff disciplines; we don't really have to imo

thank God for ppl who disagree

God's word will stand for itself.

you don't even know what Word is yet, Naomi, no offense
"God's Word" is redundant?

If not now, for you, then eventually. I just hope it won't come to late. But remember, in the end, someone will end up saying "thy will be done." If it's God saying it to you because you insist on your own way and your own interpretation...heaven help you.

ok miss N, just don't forget that sword cuts both ways ok, i can answer all your Qs and you gotta dodge all mine right now.
Should be a sign.
teachers answer questions?

See you 'round.

Galileans
"But remember, in the end, someone will end up saying "thy will be done." If it's God saying it to you"
i mean srsly Naomi, what does this even mean?
Wadr it mostly appears as like some kind of Stockholm Syndrome or something from this angle.
my mom's got it too, and she never made an enemy in her life, and i'm guessing you're just like her. can't tell her a single thing either, and i won't lie, yes, you gotta convince me too, but at least i got a little hearing in one ear if you yell loud enough or whatever maybe.

you're about to go sing When We All Get to Heaven in a place you call Church on a Sunday
and you think you found this in the Bible, which you deem Word?

 

[bbyrd009]

"We" understand that Scripture was written to hide wisdom from the wise, and "we" verify that that is functioning at 100% here.
Jesus did not "die for your sins" in the manner that an untrained child would read, and your refusal to even address the point tells me all i need to know wadr. 20No Son of Man may die for another's sins

so let's review; your "we" all knows that Jesus died to cover their sins from an Angry God Who requires blood sacrifices to appease Himself, and make it possible to then commune with His children (a stark departure from God's treatment of Adam and Eve in the Garden); and this "we" also sings "When we all get to heaven..." and seeks Death More Abundantly

my i knows that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, and i did that--which is why you can't even find any blood, except in English, and even then you gotta quint real hard--but that God is most merciful and forgives everyone unconditionally, as forgiveness does not save anyone anyway. Those few who understand that they must become a Living Sacrifice find confession, leads to salvation.

imo.