Removal Theology not Replacement Theology

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Naomi25

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Naomi25:
I'm not sure about the point being made to which you are responding...
Someone said, "Jesus did not die for our sins..."
Then later in the same post said, "I did not say Jesus did not die for our sins".
And when I called him on it, he said, "There's a difference between "dying FOR our sins, and BECAUSE of our sins"

Because it's not like "for" and "because" aren't synonyms and suddenly he isn't contradicting himself.
 
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brakelite

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Okay. We've been through every theological argument known to man regarding this sacrifice in the millennium business, so I though I would like to share what I feel in my gut.
Death, as a concept and a reality, was totally foreign and antagonistic to the nature of God. Death is an enemy. It is loathsome in all its facets. I think I can individual state that God hates death... With a passion. That death has to come to the finally impenitent lost, must break God's heart... It is the strange act described in Isaiah 28:21. For such a large proportion of His cherished creation to have to be destroyed in order to protect the rest must grieve Him so much. But His hatred of death must also extend to the animals He loves. He never intended that animals should be sacrificed, but it was the only way he could forcibly demonstrate His loathing for sin, the inevitable results of sin, and what was meant as a disincentive to continue in the practice thereof. Sadly, Israel, so long as they had a get out of jail free card grazing nearby, the egregious nature of sin became less and less apparent.
But for modern Christianity to believe that God would not only approve of, but in the person of His Son preside over a continuation of a repeated death sentence for innocent creatures for 1000 years flies in the face of God's character and borders on blasphemy.
 

bbyrd009

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Knit-picking. Of course he died because of my sins. Every single one of my sins held him pinned there to that cross. And that's something that every single Christian should acknowledge and feel. That's why we love him so much. But to say that that is fundamentally different to "dying for my sins" is just semantics and if you're as half as smart as you keep implying you are, you well know that.
i'm not sure how i keep implying this tbh, but when i ask it doesn't clarify anyway, so what i will say here is that you are still holding on to a premise...um, you are still talking about Jesus, and i mean to speak about Christ? Um, or a better way to put it might be that...you are not disallowed from considering that the world was founded in you at some certain point, ok--when you founded it--and that that is when the Lamb was slain.

one can also get to the same point understanding Nehushtan i guess, Nehushtan worship

so, i understand that even suggesting you abandon the premise right now seems like maybe sacrilege or something, but you might see that nothing will change except your mind ok, the premise is not going anywhere, you can always pick it back up later, in an hour or whatever, we're strictly talking assuming another pov for purposes of understanding better truth, ok, or if not better then toss it!
 
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bbyrd009

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Naomi25:
I'm not sure about the point being made to which you are responding...
the point is to recognize that Ezekiel 18:20 "No Son of Man may die for another's sins; the soul that sins shall die" is still valid, be perfect as I am perfect, and that this Jesus worship thing is really Nehushtan worship, Christ is our High Priest, and we are Priests. And the reasons my previous questions are always ignored imo is bc they make the relationship plain, but i don't expect someone who wants to "worship" Jesus to be answering them anyway, they are not even for them i guess
 

bbyrd009

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Because it's not like "for" and "because" aren't synonyms and suddenly he isn't contradicting himself.
other discussions of "Jesus did not die for your sins" are readily available fwiw Naomi, and while there might be few atheist rants in there somewhere for the most part they seem to be trying to get to a better understanding of Christ too, so even if there are several that i would not agree with bc they are put more religiously than i would like, one of these might be more up your alley? https://www.stmatthews.nz/sermon-12/i1iazzd2259/Jesus-Did-NOT-Die-for-Our-Sins is from an Anglican, i guess, or you might find a more palatable one if you like. I have always gone right to the perceived enemy for my revelations, but i understand that isn't for everyone ok.

but hopefully you see that i did not like make this up, so discrediting me here is really pointless imo, the concept did not come from me anyway
 

bbyrd009

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must grieve Him so much. But His hatred of death
we have touched on this before, so you already know my objections here i guess. Physical death is completely irrelevant to God imo, it only seems abhorrent to us. Spiritual death is all that matters imo. The Master Gardener is not grieved, at least not in the same manner a woman would be, i don't think anyway
 

CoreIssue

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The confusion here for many is because we're trying to apply Church verses to the millennial kingdom, heaven or New Jerusalem. They're trying to apply prophecy to the Church after he's gone.

The age of grace, born again, etc end at the rapture. Israel, temple and law return.

At the end of a millennial kingdom Satan and will be freed again and he will raise another army and march on Jerusalem. But this time God says enough and this heaven and earth will be destroyed.
 

Naomi25

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i'm not sure how i keep implying this tbh, but when i ask it doesn't clarify anyway, so what i will say here is that you are still holding on to a premise...um, you are still talking about Jesus, and i mean to speak about Christ? Um, or a better way to put it might be that...you are not disallowed from considering that the world was founded in you at some certain point, ok--when you founded it--and that that is when the Lamb was slain.

one can also get to the same point understanding Nehushtan i guess, Nehushtan worship

so, i understand that even suggesting you abandon the premise right now seems like maybe sacrilege or something, but you might see that nothing will change except your mind ok, the premise is not going anywhere, you can always pick it back up later, in an hour or whatever, we're strictly talking assuming another pov for purposes of understanding better truth, ok, or if not better then toss it!

other discussions of "Jesus did not die for your sins" are readily available fwiw Naomi, and while there might be few atheist rants in there somewhere for the most part they seem to be trying to get to a better understanding of Christ too, so even if there are several that i would not agree with bc they are put more religiously than i would like, one of these might be more up your alley? https://www.stmatthews.nz/sermon-12/i1iazzd2259/Jesus-Did-NOT-Die-for-Our-Sins is from an Anglican, i guess, or you might find a more palatable one if you like. I have always gone right to the perceived enemy for my revelations, but i understand that isn't for everyone ok.

but hopefully you see that i did not like make this up, so discrediting me here is really pointless imo, the concept did not come from me anyway


So....let me get this straight...or, more accurately, try and push aside some layers and get to the real point of this "Jesus didn't die for our sins; don't worship Jesus" thing.

If you don't think we should worship Jesus...that us doing so is the equivilent to the whole Nehushtan snake deal...then are you actually saying that you don't believe Jesus is God?

Because if he IS God, then we must worship. It is only if he is not that we must not.
 
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amadeus

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"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." I Cor 11:3
 
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brakelite

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And what is that supposed to mean? Is Christ fully God?
The Father is greater in rank...the Son relinquishes all power and authority to His Father. The Son is God...the Father said so, and He is equal to the Father in every respect...except rank.
 

bbyrd009

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And what is that supposed to mean? Is Christ fully God?
well, are you fully your head? Are you asking me so you can have an opinion about my opinion, Naomi? If Jesus was fully God, then wouldn't that have been the place to state it, rather than "God is the head of Christ?"

So, you don't have to answer my questions ok Naomi--you are even free to claim that we "cannot have a conversation" afterward if you like--but understand why your Q is not even the right one imo. So, to your lawyer question, that you already have your answer chiselled in stone to anyway, my reply is God is the head of Christ, and you can avoid my Qs your whole life if you want to, ok, but when you are being judged you won't be able to i guess
 
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CoreIssue

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Remember that quote from 1 Corinthians was written a when Christ was long re-established on His throne of glory. Yet still the Father was greater, and the Head.
If you're talking about the second person of the Trinity, I agree.

If you are talking about Christ the human, he never was on that throne.

Remember, his spirit is 100% God and his flesh 100% man. So context of usage is always critical.
 

amadeus

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no persons in God, perish the thought
Remember my friend that only God gives the increase.

Unfortunately some people who have decided they are right with apparently a revelation from God on it [or should that be without such a revelation?] are not even considering anything that anyone else has to say about it. Are you wrong? Am I? Or perish the thought , could it that one of these others might be in error? The Trinity[and other "absolutes"] for some is deeply entrenched and they simply cannot hear anything else. What causes that? Not the entrenched absolutes, but the lack of hearing? Or are both caused by the same thing?

This brings to mind few words from a song written by a brother who passed away many years ago...

"Touch my eyes, Lord, that I might see Lord...
Touch my ears, Lord, that I might hear Lord, the wonders of your Love"
 

Naomi25

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The Father is greater in rank...the Son relinquishes all power and authority to His Father. The Son is God...the Father said so, and He is equal to the Father in every respect...except rank.
It's actually an interesting thing to think about, isn't it? Is it rank? Yes, we know that Christ submits to his Father, and that the bible says that Christ will lay all that he has (all that he gains rule and reign over) at his Father's feet. But by Christ's own teaching, those who would be first are last. By totally submitting himself to the Father, we might believe by Christ's own teaching that God raises him to His own level, so that they may, indeed, be one...perfect unity and fellowship.
 

Naomi25

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well, are you fully your head? Are you asking me so you can have an opinion about my opinion, Naomi? If Jesus was fully God, then wouldn't that have been the place to state it, rather than "God is the head of Christ?"

So, you don't have to answer my questions ok Naomi--you are even free to claim that we "cannot have a conversation" afterward if you like--but understand why your Q is not even the right one imo. So, to your lawyer question, that you already have your answer chiselled in stone to anyway, my reply is God is the head of Christ, and you can avoid my Qs your whole life if you want to, ok, but when you are being judged you won't be able to i guess

Nice dodge. Very...not...transparent.
You seem a bit peeved that I have not answered "your Qs". And, to be honest, perhaps I haven't. Let me explain why. Not a single one made sense to me. Let me expand with my how my general internal monologue went. You would say something like this:

i gotta wonder how this believer might ever pick up a cross and outdo Jesus, wadr

And then I would think something like this:
"this believer"? Were you talking about me? Why is the subject about picking up my cross and "outdoing" Jesus coming into a conversation about remembering the fact that Jesus went to the cross for me? o_O Have no idea what he's talking about. In fact, I'm so at a loss, I'm not even sure how to make a comment on that...pass...onto the next paragraph.

If you're "so used to people not answering your Q's"....it's probably because you don't make sense. Or they feel they don't need to, since you don't either. Witness your dodge above. Try working on that.