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I think it is undignified and ungodly of the Messianics to dub they who are born again and grafted into Israel...as mere scab labour...who will be put under others because of their DNA. Where is the faith in God?
The spiritual birth is superior to the natural birth. Dispensationalists deny this. Their literal interpretation of Israel is a denial of the power and character of God. It makes of God a racist...and one who respects persons.
The spiritual birth is superior to the natural birth. Dispensationalists deny this. Their literal interpretation of Israel is a denial of the power and character of God. It makes of God a racist...and one who respects persons.
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I've had Rom 11 on my mind a bit, so bare with me while I slowly muddle through this. If we take 1-4 literally, then we now have a format for Rom 11:25-32 and 1-10 below as example.
1. Born again Gentiles and born again Jews = the body of Christ, the child in Rev 12
2. Non believing Jews = the woman in Rev 12
3. Spiritual Israel, #1 above = the body of Christ, the child in Rev 12
4. Earthly Israel, #2 above = the woman in Rev 12
I do see spiritual Israel being separated from earthly Israel upon rapture in Rev 12:5, but God will protect earthly Israel until the end, Rev 12:6, 14.
1. Isa 27:6, 12 - Spiritual Israel
2. Jer 30:3 - Earthly Israel
3. Ez 33-39 - Earthly Israel
4. Dan 9:7-11, 20 - Earthly Israel
5. Hos 1-12 - Earthly Israel
6. Joel 2:27, Joel 3:16 - Spiritual Israel
7. Joel 3:1-2 - Earthly Israel
8. Amos 1-4, Amos 5:25 - Earthly Israel
9. Amos 9:14-15 - Spiritual Israel
10. Micah 5:3 (SI), Nah 2:2 (SI), Zech 11:14 (EI), Mal 1:1 (EI)
Rom 11:25/Luke 21:24/Isa 27:6, 12, Amos 9:14-15 example - full # of Gentiles end of 70th week (Spiritual Israel)
Rom 11:25 - Speaking of Earthly Israel
Rom 11:26 - Speaking of Spiritual Israel (Earthly Israel now becomes one with Spiritual Israel)
Rom 11:28 - The enemies here are Earthly Israel for now
Rom 11:28 / Rom 11:5-7 / Rom 11:1 - The elect here are believing Jews (via Paul's Jewish name was Saul)
Rom 11:30-32 - The struggle between Jews and Gentiles
Rom 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.
All Israel Will Be Saved
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
God bless.
1. Born again Gentiles and born again Jews = the body of Christ, the child in Rev 12
2. Non believing Jews = the woman in Rev 12
3. Spiritual Israel, #1 above = the body of Christ, the child in Rev 12
4. Earthly Israel, #2 above = the woman in Rev 12
I do see spiritual Israel being separated from earthly Israel upon rapture in Rev 12:5, but God will protect earthly Israel until the end, Rev 12:6, 14.
1. Isa 27:6, 12 - Spiritual Israel
2. Jer 30:3 - Earthly Israel
3. Ez 33-39 - Earthly Israel
4. Dan 9:7-11, 20 - Earthly Israel
5. Hos 1-12 - Earthly Israel
6. Joel 2:27, Joel 3:16 - Spiritual Israel
7. Joel 3:1-2 - Earthly Israel
8. Amos 1-4, Amos 5:25 - Earthly Israel
9. Amos 9:14-15 - Spiritual Israel
10. Micah 5:3 (SI), Nah 2:2 (SI), Zech 11:14 (EI), Mal 1:1 (EI)
Rom 11:25/Luke 21:24/Isa 27:6, 12, Amos 9:14-15 example - full # of Gentiles end of 70th week (Spiritual Israel)
Rom 11:25 - Speaking of Earthly Israel
Rom 11:26 - Speaking of Spiritual Israel (Earthly Israel now becomes one with Spiritual Israel)
Rom 11:28 - The enemies here are Earthly Israel for now
Rom 11:28 / Rom 11:5-7 / Rom 11:1 - The elect here are believing Jews (via Paul's Jewish name was Saul)
Rom 11:30-32 - The struggle between Jews and Gentiles
Rom 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.
All Israel Will Be Saved
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
God bless.
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
Heb 13:8, that is to many points to cover one time.
2. Non believing Jews = the woman in Rev 12 is believing Israel protected in
Petra.
The Wife of Jehovah and the Bride of Messiah
Marriage Super of the Lamb
2. Non believing Jews = the woman in Rev 12 is believing Israel protected in
Petra.
The Wife of Jehovah and the Bride of Messiah
Marriage Super of the Lamb
Hi CI. The woman in Rev 12 is earthly Israel. Earthly Israel is not Spiritual Israel. These are two separate entities.
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
Believing earthly including the 144,000 and other believing Jews.
2/3 of Israel die during the trib, mainly those who think the AC will protect them.
Just like 2/3 of the gentiles will die. The seven churches are loaded with apostasy and their members will either seek God in the tribulation, believe the AC is Jesus and a lot of them will also die.
Going to be very bloody time. All who take the mark and the beast would die, the AC will slaughter multitudes of trib saints and some trips saints and nonbelievers will survive into the MK.
A very complicated seven years.
Hope that helps Heb 13:8.
Cool, so you're pre trib also. That's good because many deny Rev 12:1-5 sign on 9/23/17.
"All Israel" = all twelve tribes of Israel. See the prophecy of Ezekiel.
EZEKIEL 48
1Now these are the names of the tribes. From the north end to the coast of the way of Hethlon, as one goeth to Hamath, Hazarenan, the border of Damascus northward, to the coast of Hamath; for these are his sides east and west; a portion for Dan.
2 And by the border of Dan, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Asher.
3 And by the border of Asher, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Naphtali.
4 And by the border of Naphtali, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Manasseh.
5 And by the border of Manasseh, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Ephraim.
6 And by the border of Ephraim, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Reuben.
7 And by the border of Reuben, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Judah...
13 And over against the border of the priests the Levites shall have five and twenty thousand in length, and ten thousand in breadth: all the lengths hall be five and twenty thousand, and the breadth ten thousand...
22 Moreover from the possession of the Levites, and from the possession of the city, being in the midst of that which is the prince's, between the border of Judah and the border of Benjamin, shall be for the prince.
23 As for the rest of the tribes, from the east side unto the west side, Benjamin shall have a portion.
24 And by the border of Benjamin, from the east side unto the west side, Simeon shall have a portion.
25 And by the border of Simeon, from the east side unto the west side, Issachar a portion.
26 And by the border of Issachar, from the east side unto the west side, Zebulun a portion.
27 And by the border of Zebulun, from the east side unto the west side, Gad a portion.
28 And by the border of Gad, at the south side southward, the border shall be even from Tamar unto the waters of strife in Kadesh, and to the river toward the great sea.
29 This is the land which ye shall divide by lot unto the tribes of Israel for inheritance, and these are their portions, saith the Lord GOD.
Only those who are believers -- a believing remnant will be saved. And actually one-third of all Jews at the time of the second coming of Christ will be saved.
And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. (Zech 13:8,9).
More ignorant statements from Episkopos, another rabid anti-Dispensationalist.
So, in order to bring truth to light here is the response.
1. No Dispensationalist has ever said that the natural birth is superior to the spiritual birth. Indeed, Dispensationalists preach the true Gospel, which includes the imperative "YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN".
2.
Quite the opposite. Christians who believe and uphold the words of God as related to redeemed and restored Israel affirm the power and character of God over and over again (as opposed to those who deny Scripture). How can any not accept that Israel will literally inhabit the Promised Land?
And the Redeemer [CHRIST] shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob [Israel], saith the LORD. As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever. (Isa 59:20,21)
And now, saith the LORD that formed me [CHRIST] from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. And he [GOD] said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. (Isa 49:5-7)
And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there. And Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, and the valley of Achor a place for the herds to lie down in, for my people that have sought me.(Isa 65:9,10)
“Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:” (1 Corinthians 10:32)
“Now the church is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.” (Ephesians 1:23)
I can see your point but the Church was made up of both Jews (predominately) and gentiles (to a slight degree) in Paul's time. Today he might say don't talk politics because you alienate those whom you should be trying to reach for Christ.
Romans 11 has two scriptures that impose constraints on the rest of the chapter. They are:
“Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.” (Romans 11:19–21)
“And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.” (Romans 11:23)
So in essence, their rejection of Christ separated them from Israel (Jesus in the NT) and if they accept Jesus, God will reattach them to Israel.
and in this way all Israel (both Jews and gentiles) will be saved.
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
Why will God only reattach believers to Israel after breaking off all the unbelievers? (Romans 11).
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
Reattach? Never said.
You don't understand what grafting means. I grew up on a farm so I do.
You've never seen a tree with limbs and fruit that is different from the host tree have you?
And again the the archaic English.
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 11 - New International Version
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
To late. I know exactly what you meant by reattach.
You cannot add back something not there to begin with.
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